Replacing petrol with carbon-neutral synthetic fuel
Discussion
geeks said:
JimSuperSix said:
Remember, only 10 years until ICE cannot be sold.....10 years....do you recall anything that major that's been implemented in the country since 2010? Or in fact ever? BTW how's HS2 coming along? Doen by when? Ah, 2031(ish).....
No it is 10 years until ICE ONLY cars cannot be sold, Hybrids are fine!Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 4th December 19:30
Also as the government don't supply the cars, it will probably be fine!
JimSuperSix said:
geeks said:
JimSuperSix said:
Remember, only 10 years until ICE cannot be sold.....10 years....do you recall anything that major that's been implemented in the country since 2010? Or in fact ever? BTW how's HS2 coming along? Doen by when? Ah, 2031(ish).....
No it is 10 years until ICE ONLY cars cannot be sold, Hybrids are fine!Edited by JimSuperSix on Friday 4th December 19:30
Also as the government don't supply the cars, it will probably be fine!
JMBMWM5 said:
Electric cars make little sense in the UK, charging will be a problem for years to come, most people could not "Home charge" and who wants to spend time sitting waiting for a charge to fill your car, the price of these so called chargers ain't cheap either.
Give me petrol all day long.
Too right... and don't get me started on living in Australia and trying to adopt an EV mindset. They still write on slate with a stone over here.Give me petrol all day long.
Synthetic fuels are just as damaging as oil from the ground.
Rain forest is being cut down for palm oil plantations, to turn into fuel , Very green.....
Vast acres of farm land growing grain is brewed into ethanol, when an estimated 1 billion people are starving ! Very green....
Lots of things get called green, but in reality cause just as much harm as previous dirty fuels. Where money can be made the " green " ideal gets lost very quickly....
impprobable said:
Synthetic fuels are just as damaging as oil from the ground.
Rain forest is being cut down for palm oil plantations, to turn into fuel , Very green.....
Vast acres of farm land growing grain is brewed into ethanol, when an estimated 1 billion people are starving ! Very green....
Lots of things get called green, but in reality cause just as much harm as previous dirty fuels. Where money can be made the " green " ideal gets lost very quickly....
You’re thinking about biofuels rather than the point of this thread which is about capturing and turning CO2 into fuels instead. Rain forest is being cut down for palm oil plantations, to turn into fuel , Very green.....
Vast acres of farm land growing grain is brewed into ethanol, when an estimated 1 billion people are starving ! Very green....
Lots of things get called green, but in reality cause just as much harm as previous dirty fuels. Where money can be made the " green " ideal gets lost very quickly....
I came across this article and thought it was a good read: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/05/1905...
There is an e fuel petition currently running to include synthetic e fuels into the transport mix post 2030.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/563118
I don’t much like the idea of an electric Ferrari but this could be the solution, EV for the commute, synthetic fuelled sports car for the weekend. If these fuels can be allowed then performance car makers such as Aston & Ferrari could still make their cars with an ICE post 2030. Volt heads = happy, Petrolheads = happy, eco nutters = happy! Win, win, win.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/563118
I don’t much like the idea of an electric Ferrari but this could be the solution, EV for the commute, synthetic fuelled sports car for the weekend. If these fuels can be allowed then performance car makers such as Aston & Ferrari could still make their cars with an ICE post 2030. Volt heads = happy, Petrolheads = happy, eco nutters = happy! Win, win, win.
Signed.
Battery vehicles have their place, but they seem to have won the political debate without any further question, whereas synthetic fuels could potentially yield short term and lifecycle CO2 benefits in some use cases.
Just think of all the electric cars that have been bought over lockdown and then parked, hardly used. A huge amount of CO2 has been produced to manufacture them - in some cases the equivalent of three or four years worth of ICE production and use - and then they're not being used to offset the CO2 generated.
What if the pandemic results in ongoing change in people's lifestyles, leading to much more home working and much reduced car use? These vehicles, which would have offset their embodied CO2 in a couple of years, would instead take several years to justify their manufacture - and all at a time when we need to start reducing CO2 output in the short term.
When it comes to sports cars it's even worse, as they're often second cars and used relatively sparingly. Would something like a Lotus Evija ever justify it's embodied CO2? A petrol Lotus, particularly one powered by a carbon-neutral fuel, would be substantially better for the environment.
It's a debate that needs to be had, even though a few battery car evangelists on here will find it unpalatable.
Battery vehicles have their place, but they seem to have won the political debate without any further question, whereas synthetic fuels could potentially yield short term and lifecycle CO2 benefits in some use cases.
Just think of all the electric cars that have been bought over lockdown and then parked, hardly used. A huge amount of CO2 has been produced to manufacture them - in some cases the equivalent of three or four years worth of ICE production and use - and then they're not being used to offset the CO2 generated.
What if the pandemic results in ongoing change in people's lifestyles, leading to much more home working and much reduced car use? These vehicles, which would have offset their embodied CO2 in a couple of years, would instead take several years to justify their manufacture - and all at a time when we need to start reducing CO2 output in the short term.
When it comes to sports cars it's even worse, as they're often second cars and used relatively sparingly. Would something like a Lotus Evija ever justify it's embodied CO2? A petrol Lotus, particularly one powered by a carbon-neutral fuel, would be substantially better for the environment.
It's a debate that needs to be had, even though a few battery car evangelists on here will find it unpalatable.
Edited by NDNDNDND on Sunday 14th February 09:46
Running the numbers on synthetic hydrogen power-to-fuel scenarios.
Doesn’t look good.
https://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/file...
Doesn’t look good.
https://www.transportenvironment.org/sites/te/file...
JimSuperSix said:
One thing that's always conveniently glossed-over is how do you charge an electric car if you live in one of the millions of houses that don't have a driveway? Are we expecting every street to have hundreds of charging points along the pavement? One charging point per space? Really? Does anyone actually think that's going to happen?
People are precious enough about the space outside their house even now when it doesn't really matter where you park, imagine what would happen if it also requires you to plug the car in each night in order to get to work, but someone is in "your" spot. Cars will be unplugged left right and centre, or re-plugged into your own car.
Remember, only 10 years until ICE cannot be sold.....10 years....do you recall anything that major that's been implemented in the country since 2010? Or in fact ever? BTW how's HS2 coming along? Doen by when? Ah, 2031(ish).....
I'd make that less than 9 Years now! Ideally, it should all be up and running at least 5-10 years before it's actually all needed for testing and ironing out issues, so at best 3.5 Years left to totally rewire the whole infrastruture, build thousands more turbines and/or Nuclear stations, wire every street with charging points....good luck with that!People are precious enough about the space outside their house even now when it doesn't really matter where you park, imagine what would happen if it also requires you to plug the car in each night in order to get to work, but someone is in "your" spot. Cars will be unplugged left right and centre, or re-plugged into your own car.
Remember, only 10 years until ICE cannot be sold.....10 years....do you recall anything that major that's been implemented in the country since 2010? Or in fact ever? BTW how's HS2 coming along? Doen by when? Ah, 2031(ish).....
Edited by JimSuperSix on Friday 4th December 19:30
What's going to happen in less than nine years? As far as I know, that is the point at which you won't be able to sell a brand new petrol or diesel car which isn't a hybrid. And after another five years, you won't be able to sell a new car which isn't electric.
Realistically, that minority of households which don't have off road parking are not going to be the ones buying brand new cars. So you've got maybe another 5 years lag before the lack of new petrol/diesel cars starts to filter through to the suburban poor.
Rich people who can't afford parking live in places where you don't need a car.
Realistically, that minority of households which don't have off road parking are not going to be the ones buying brand new cars. So you've got maybe another 5 years lag before the lack of new petrol/diesel cars starts to filter through to the suburban poor.
Rich people who can't afford parking live in places where you don't need a car.
I think this development is a good thing for transportation. Shipping alone is a massive market for synthetic fuels as well as road transport in places such as Australia. If it trickles down into cars then great. It means millions of cars won't have to be scrapped as there will be a more environmentally friendly way of keeping them going and getting maximum life out of ICE vehicles.
But I also think electric vehicles have a place. I'd have one if they were cheaper. Not sure how the second-hand market will be for them with battery life for example, but for literally commuting to work or as the family run around they are fine and work well.
There should be a two pronged approach to this issue really as we shouldn't put all our eggs in one basket and back electric only.
But I also think electric vehicles have a place. I'd have one if they were cheaper. Not sure how the second-hand market will be for them with battery life for example, but for literally commuting to work or as the family run around they are fine and work well.
There should be a two pronged approach to this issue really as we shouldn't put all our eggs in one basket and back electric only.
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