RE: Marcos Engineering Appoints Administrator
Discussion
It's a real shame.
The was something just so right about their new Coupe -- classic styling, compact dimensions, and bruising performance....
...but that ain't enough these days -- punters are very sensitive to both brand and perceived quality, and the costs/resources of developing and homologating new cars are enough to make a Swiss Banker weep.
Sadly but Caparo will be next, followed by Ascari, Farboud (?), et al -- these guys are just cash-rich dreamers who will get squeezed out by sceptical consumers and the ever-more-demanding legislators.
The was something just so right about their new Coupe -- classic styling, compact dimensions, and bruising performance....
...but that ain't enough these days -- punters are very sensitive to both brand and perceived quality, and the costs/resources of developing and homologating new cars are enough to make a Swiss Banker weep.
Sadly but Caparo will be next, followed by Ascari, Farboud (?), et al -- these guys are just cash-rich dreamers who will get squeezed out by sceptical consumers and the ever-more-demanding legislators.
little-red-canam said:
Another foreigner fcuks up our motor industry, mind you, they were over priced.
Would you have been happier if a Brit had f'ed it up, be it TVR or Marcos? 
The truth is that these foreigners were the guys who actually did buy these companies. No Brit was either willing or able to buy them. Anyone who wanted to but could not buy TVR or Marcos because they couldn't match the price offered by NS or TS, could he then keep the business afloat? It's certainly possible, but I wouldn't bet on it, either.Erm if Porsche charge £60k each for production of 100,000 cars PA, why do people on here still think you can build 30 (or less in this case) of these for £40k? DUH! Specialist cars cost specialist money. No customers = No business. Shame. There is a critical mass, and it bottoms out at about 200 cars PA sold at a premium price.
Real shame. Its always sad to something with a bit of pedigree go down the tubes.
I suppose you have to face facts that for whatever reason people did not buy enough of them. Personally I think the markets changed for this type of car, other mainstream manufactureres have raised the bar on reliability and build quality, in the old days that did not matter that much, it was all about how they made you feel when you drove a car like that.
Expectations have changed.
Gutted
I suppose you have to face facts that for whatever reason people did not buy enough of them. Personally I think the markets changed for this type of car, other mainstream manufactureres have raised the bar on reliability and build quality, in the old days that did not matter that much, it was all about how they made you feel when you drove a car like that.
Expectations have changed.
Gutted
Theres one in the classifieds, snip at 20 grand of list price (it says) now only 60grand (almost!)
To survive in the specialist game you need to be lower in price and be different. DARE manage to quietly keep going (and as they are the Walkletts, that means 50 years come 2008).
Just think this car was first conceived in 1959 and launched in January 1961 and even now those classic lines don't date.
Still being built, albeit with modern power they are 'affordable' just hard to find secondhand cos owners keeep 'em - this one was recently snapped up on PH, and belies that it is almost 10 years old.
To survive in the specialist game you need to be lower in price and be different. DARE manage to quietly keep going (and as they are the Walkletts, that means 50 years come 2008).
Just think this car was first conceived in 1959 and launched in January 1961 and even now those classic lines don't date.
Still being built, albeit with modern power they are 'affordable' just hard to find secondhand cos owners keeep 'em - this one was recently snapped up on PH, and belies that it is almost 10 years old.
Edited by dandarez on Thursday 11th October 23:14
AMG Merc said:
TVR_nut said:
First TVR, now Marcos.
All victims of the UK government's fixation with the "Speed Kills" (therefore those who drive performance cars are evil & reckless) message.
Well you say that but it amazes me just how many ulta-powerful motors are being produced today for no good reason - more than ever before and some fall into the saloon car category too.All victims of the UK government's fixation with the "Speed Kills" (therefore those who drive performance cars are evil & reckless) message.
& not supercarsAMG Merc said:
TVR_nut said:
First TVR, now Marcos.
All victims of the UK government's fixation with the "Speed Kills" (therefore those who drive performance cars are evil & reckless) message.
Well you say that but it amazes me just how many ulta-powerful motors are being produced today for no good reason - more than ever before and some fall into the saloon car category too.All victims of the UK government's fixation with the "Speed Kills" (therefore those who drive performance cars are evil & reckless) message.
And cannot hold a candle to the sound of a TVR or LM500 Marcos.
juansolo said:
Podie said:
Hmm…. So explain why prices continue to drop in the second hand market. Seems to be an influx of decent(ish) cars out there going for (quite frankly) peanuts.
What are people buying..?
MX-5s... and I so want a Griff too, but I can't part with what is a cheap, ultra reliable, fun car for something that's potentially gonna be hard work and massively expensive to run. Running costs are what's hurting these cars. They're dirt cheap to buy as a result. Newer ones pay for it in massive depreciation, again scaring away buyers to safer German brands. It's a shame.What are people buying..?
But will NEVER be the same as the Griff grin-factor!!
Lotus is (reasonably) successful because it produces financially achievable cars - despite not offering reliability.
TVR was once successful because it once produced financially achievable cars (Tuscan, Griff) - despite not offering reliability.
It decided to go up market - despite not offering reliability, and it died.
Marcos was once successful because it once produced financially achievable cars (Martina, Mantula, Mantara) - despite not offering reliability.
It decided to go up market - despite not offering reliability, and now it's died.
We'll trade reliability for charisma and fun, but won't take out a morgage for it.
Come on guys, it's not a difficult equation!
TVR was once successful because it once produced financially achievable cars (Tuscan, Griff) - despite not offering reliability.
It decided to go up market - despite not offering reliability, and it died.
Marcos was once successful because it once produced financially achievable cars (Martina, Mantula, Mantara) - despite not offering reliability.
It decided to go up market - despite not offering reliability, and now it's died.
We'll trade reliability for charisma and fun, but won't take out a morgage for it.
Come on guys, it's not a difficult equation!
A real shame.
I don't agree with many of the comments on here though.
1) I don't think that the car was massively over priced. There are plenty of people that can easily afford £60k plus for sports cars and the number is increasing every year. From memory the base car was actually about £47k. For buyers of these cars depreciation is more important than the capital outlay
2) I think Mr S had good intentions
3) I think that the business model seemed sound - good low cost operation and in sourcing model
4) The product (on paper) seemed sound - bullet proof mechanicals, good build quality designed in compared to TVR, good chassis etc
5) I still think that there is a sizeable market for 'individual' sports cars with that unique feel factor away from mainstream manufacturers. Personally there are few mainstream 'sports' cars that interest me.
However
4) I think that the cars took too long to come to market from when they were first revealed to the media. I remember seeing Phil bring one to the ACE but more than twelve months later when I was looking to buy there were still no demo cars around
5) weak dealer network and few demonstrators / exposure
6) questionable brand name conjuring up mini marcos type kit cars etc
7) interior / exterior design was a bit ordinary - especially compared to TVRs. Functional but lacked the wow factor. weakest angle for me was the gaping mouth.
8) the interior packaging was shocking. I struggled to even get into the red demo car that David Gerald had and could certainly not drive it. It is much tighter inside than an Elise - IMHO a big mistake!!!
9) Should have put a 600hp mildly tuned LS7 with MOTEC and traction control in to make it basically the quickest car by a country mile in the price bracket.
10) From what I have heard failed to retain a quality team on side
11) TVR collapse / lack of sales made people additionally cautious to commit
I would be surprised though if this is the final chapter in this case.
David
I don't agree with many of the comments on here though.
1) I don't think that the car was massively over priced. There are plenty of people that can easily afford £60k plus for sports cars and the number is increasing every year. From memory the base car was actually about £47k. For buyers of these cars depreciation is more important than the capital outlay
2) I think Mr S had good intentions
3) I think that the business model seemed sound - good low cost operation and in sourcing model
4) The product (on paper) seemed sound - bullet proof mechanicals, good build quality designed in compared to TVR, good chassis etc
5) I still think that there is a sizeable market for 'individual' sports cars with that unique feel factor away from mainstream manufacturers. Personally there are few mainstream 'sports' cars that interest me.
However
4) I think that the cars took too long to come to market from when they were first revealed to the media. I remember seeing Phil bring one to the ACE but more than twelve months later when I was looking to buy there were still no demo cars around
5) weak dealer network and few demonstrators / exposure
6) questionable brand name conjuring up mini marcos type kit cars etc
7) interior / exterior design was a bit ordinary - especially compared to TVRs. Functional but lacked the wow factor. weakest angle for me was the gaping mouth.
8) the interior packaging was shocking. I struggled to even get into the red demo car that David Gerald had and could certainly not drive it. It is much tighter inside than an Elise - IMHO a big mistake!!!
9) Should have put a 600hp mildly tuned LS7 with MOTEC and traction control in to make it basically the quickest car by a country mile in the price bracket.
10) From what I have heard failed to retain a quality team on side
11) TVR collapse / lack of sales made people additionally cautious to commit
I would be surprised though if this is the final chapter in this case.
David
Edited by XTR2Turbo on Friday 12th October 00:03
[quote=dandarez]
, and belies that it is almost 10 years old.
quote]
Really !! I think this looks very dated - granted it looks like it could be 10 or 30 years old if that's what you meann but I don't think Marcos were after the retro / replica buyer.
, and belies that it is almost 10 years old.
quote]
Really !! I think this looks very dated - granted it looks like it could be 10 or 30 years old if that's what you meann but I don't think Marcos were after the retro / replica buyer.
Edited by XTR2Turbo on Thursday 11th October 23:59
Dandarez that looks like more fun, and less than half the price of a Marcos too, and just look at those lovely curves, I am afraid the new Marcos is just simply a cross between a TVR front and an Aston Martin rear end, and not very well done at that, all that for £60, don't think so, but hey, thats just my opinion, hey Roary you gonna obtain the moulds for this as well ??
As I said much earlier in this thread "The conclusion I am forced to reach is that the future for mid-price specialist sports cars is quite bleak.
I think any new manufacturers need to aim to produce interesting, reliable, fun little sports cars that focus on looks and handling rather than power, and to sell them for less than 20k.
And people will buy them - just consider the MX5 et al."
I think many or most posts since have born out this view. Lotus achieved incredible success with the Elise, despite it having significant flaws (have you ever tried to get in and out of one?) because overall it gave a great driving experience at very sensible money. I think it is surprising, and perhaps telling, that no other smaller independent or specialist manufacturers have followed their lead.
If Noble could produce a simple, lightweight, gorgeous looking, great handling little sports car with a simple 150-200bhp engine, I think they would do very well with it. Likewise, a small mid-powered "traditionally British" roadster (not a hardcore track machine) with a smart, simple but stylish exterior and interior could also find a market.
But the key is price. They need to be in the same sort of bracket as the Elise, not too much more expensive than a range topping MX5 or MR2. Probably an absolute maximum of £25k.
I think any new manufacturers need to aim to produce interesting, reliable, fun little sports cars that focus on looks and handling rather than power, and to sell them for less than 20k.
And people will buy them - just consider the MX5 et al."
I think many or most posts since have born out this view. Lotus achieved incredible success with the Elise, despite it having significant flaws (have you ever tried to get in and out of one?) because overall it gave a great driving experience at very sensible money. I think it is surprising, and perhaps telling, that no other smaller independent or specialist manufacturers have followed their lead.
If Noble could produce a simple, lightweight, gorgeous looking, great handling little sports car with a simple 150-200bhp engine, I think they would do very well with it. Likewise, a small mid-powered "traditionally British" roadster (not a hardcore track machine) with a smart, simple but stylish exterior and interior could also find a market.
But the key is price. They need to be in the same sort of bracket as the Elise, not too much more expensive than a range topping MX5 or MR2. Probably an absolute maximum of £25k.
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