RE: Brake by Wire
Thursday 13th December 2001
Brake by Wire
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Discussion
I don`t have a problem with Brake by Wire. Planes have been using fly by wire for many year (ok, the Pilot of a Fighter has an ejector seat if it all goes wrong 
) Incl. commercial airliners..
What I do have a problem with is cars that do everything for you bar drive (that`ll be along soon no doubt)
) Incl. commercial airliners.. What I do have a problem with is cars that do everything for you bar drive (that`ll be along soon no doubt)
It’s true that planes have fly by wire BUT there is an awful lot of safety checks and redundant systems to ensure it works all the time. Are Mercedes going to ensure the complete 100% functionality for its whole life in whatever conditions? Have they also fitted rerouted redundant systems? (I bet not). If your electrics fail on a normal car then the car will slow down and you still have control to brake.
I am a believer that there is no 100% system (obviously worked too long in IT) if its one circuit and that’s all you have to brake then I would certainly be worried about buying that car.
Edited by smeagol on Thursday 13th December 11:34
I am a believer that there is no 100% system (obviously worked too long in IT) if its one circuit and that’s all you have to brake then I would certainly be worried about buying that car.
Edited by smeagol on Thursday 13th December 11:34
I have a friend who is working on a brake system for a certain British car company (better not mention who). Their developmental system includes all sorts of failsafes to take account of everything, including complete electronics failure.
Can you imagine the outcry if MB's new system experienced a failure? I do not believe that anyone in the industry would allow a non-failsafed (nice word, I think I just invented it) to go on sale.
Can you imagine the outcry if MB's new system experienced a failure? I do not believe that anyone in the industry would allow a non-failsafed (nice word, I think I just invented it) to go on sale.
quote:
Can you imagine the outcry if MB's new system experienced a failure? I do not believe that anyone in the industry would allow a non-failsafed (nice word, I think I just invented it) to go on sale.
This _is_ a system from the company who bought you the A-class. Understeer, Oversteer, Upside-down...
Is it me or is this another step on the way to turning us all into mindless steering machines.
Brake by wire offers huge benefits - faster response times to driver input (negligeable when compared to driver response times).
Highly advanced abs systems (so we can all drive like maniacs then blame it on systems faliure when we crash).
Brakes which do different things depending on how we press the pedal --(I know people wo have trouble with the current single function brake pedal!!!! dont give them more ways to mess up)
I think in making life easier for the less capeable drivers we will make many drivers into lazy, irresponsible drivers.
Brake by wire offers huge benefits - faster response times to driver input (negligeable when compared to driver response times).
Highly advanced abs systems (so we can all drive like maniacs then blame it on systems faliure when we crash).
Brakes which do different things depending on how we press the pedal --(I know people wo have trouble with the current single function brake pedal!!!! dont give them more ways to mess up)
I think in making life easier for the less capeable drivers we will make many drivers into lazy, irresponsible drivers.
I am in favour of the brake by wire system,
However, I`d like to know what type of device applys the pads to the discs, if this is some sort of solenoid then we all know how reliable a central locking system can be on a TVR can be.
Also, being a software designer, i have a couple of questions ? What governing body is going to check the software of the system to ensure it doesn`t have any bugs, and which encryption will be used to ensure the software does not get tampered with ? Its not difficult to update your ECU at the moment , And i can forsee some SMART B****** pulling a funny with the Accelerate by wire controls.
Brake by Wire is just a step Into the Future, What happens when our cars are hooked up to the web for Virtual diagnostic checks.
Know any good hackers? Don`t need hit men any more !!!
It is of course inevitable that we will no longer drive our cars, and they will be controlled by BIG BROTHER , i say, buy a classic , cause when BIG BROTHER arrives to stay , they`ll be worth a fortune
Dann
However, I`d like to know what type of device applys the pads to the discs, if this is some sort of solenoid then we all know how reliable a central locking system can be on a TVR can be.
Also, being a software designer, i have a couple of questions ? What governing body is going to check the software of the system to ensure it doesn`t have any bugs, and which encryption will be used to ensure the software does not get tampered with ? Its not difficult to update your ECU at the moment , And i can forsee some SMART B****** pulling a funny with the Accelerate by wire controls.
Brake by Wire is just a step Into the Future, What happens when our cars are hooked up to the web for Virtual diagnostic checks.
Know any good hackers? Don`t need hit men any more !!!
It is of course inevitable that we will no longer drive our cars, and they will be controlled by BIG BROTHER , i say, buy a classic , cause when BIG BROTHER arrives to stay , they`ll be worth a fortune
Dann
What puzzles me is that we have a perectly good system with hydraulics and yet they want to go to brake-by-wire. My old A40 had rear brakes controlled by wire and they were absolutly crap, and we all know how often TVR throttle cables break! No sorry chaps I'd never trust a car with brake-by-wire stoppers! Rich...
Rich...I am not a fan of all this electronics, even tho' I know when it works, it works passably well.
As discussed my car has all the gadgets, but an enthuisiastic driver can still fool them, and by that time you have overstepped the dividing line between fun and dangerous.
All this gadgetry is all very well while it works... you know the rest.
Well designed cars built with SPEED in mind are far safer than any "sensible car" that has electronic safety aids.
C
As discussed my car has all the gadgets, but an enthuisiastic driver can still fool them, and by that time you have overstepped the dividing line between fun and dangerous.
All this gadgetry is all very well while it works... you know the rest.
Well designed cars built with SPEED in mind are far safer than any "sensible car" that has electronic safety aids.
C
Thing is when ABS was first introduced people were suspicious of it , but it worked fine the problem was for example , an emergency stop in the wet when you had a guy behind you who did not have ABS , i guess this brake by wire is just the next step, but i really dont care for the idea
hoganscrogan, I've had a brake leak/failure with hydralics. You still get brakes on two wheels (the circuit is split) and with a leak it tends to also start with spongy brakes and some brakes (so you can stop) warning you something is wrong. It is very very rare for brakes to go like they show in the movies 
With wires there is no warning they either work or don't. As for the idea that "of course they will be fail safe" if Ford can't get cruise control to work properly (it only controls the throttle) without the car suddenly increasing speed and causing accidents, how can we trust another manufactuer to get brakes right.
Edited by smeagol on Thursday 13th December 15:15
With wires there is no warning they either work or don't. As for the idea that "of course they will be fail safe" if Ford can't get cruise control to work properly (it only controls the throttle) without the car suddenly increasing speed and causing accidents, how can we trust another manufactuer to get brakes right.
Edited by smeagol on Thursday 13th December 15:15
I think big brother will disappear very quickly (it wqould take longer to say 'Pistonheads dot Com') come 2006 when the entire US navy fleet is lost when the Microsoft OS controlling them goes tits up! I don;t think car enthusiasts will have to worry! As long as TVR keep making cars! we'll all be happy!
The electrics on my last Two Italian cars were a mixture of Japanese and German. The electrics on my current 'British' car mix German, UK and Japanese components. Should I trust them?
Lets turn this around. If I was proposing to introduce a pioneering new car that relied upon rubber tubes of paint stripping hydroscopic fluid (that might boil away if contaminated) and needed to be purged of all air bubbles to allow the little neoprene seals to do their job in stopping the car what sort of press would I get? A simple electronic 'plug and play' assembly has got to be an attraction, any malfunction could be checked out by the ECU which would prevent the car from moving if there was any circuit or component damage present. We have F1 engine designers looking at electronic valve activation, we have many production brake assist and brake distribution systems that rely upon electronic logic and distribution controls, electric power steering is commonplace, can we remain sceptical?
On a personal level I do have my concerns but integrataion of controls must make a potentially safer and dynamically superior vehicle and it has to be easier to monitor electronic brake controls more effectively than mechanical or hydraulic systems.
My daily driver has drive by wire controls which are accredited by TUV, Dept of Transport etc. The ECU decides how much welly should be transmitted to the Injection system and how much boost the motor can use. Theoretically my attempts to keep out of the way of Kooperkid and the hoards of 'sensible drivers' who are being forced to drive dangerously to avoid Metros could be frustrated by the ECU (don't know if it wears a flat cap or smokes a pipe). Should I be attempting to fix up a fishing line as a back up?
Edited by gnomesmith on Tuesday 18th December 12:40
Lets turn this around. If I was proposing to introduce a pioneering new car that relied upon rubber tubes of paint stripping hydroscopic fluid (that might boil away if contaminated) and needed to be purged of all air bubbles to allow the little neoprene seals to do their job in stopping the car what sort of press would I get? A simple electronic 'plug and play' assembly has got to be an attraction, any malfunction could be checked out by the ECU which would prevent the car from moving if there was any circuit or component damage present. We have F1 engine designers looking at electronic valve activation, we have many production brake assist and brake distribution systems that rely upon electronic logic and distribution controls, electric power steering is commonplace, can we remain sceptical?
On a personal level I do have my concerns but integrataion of controls must make a potentially safer and dynamically superior vehicle and it has to be easier to monitor electronic brake controls more effectively than mechanical or hydraulic systems.
My daily driver has drive by wire controls which are accredited by TUV, Dept of Transport etc. The ECU decides how much welly should be transmitted to the Injection system and how much boost the motor can use. Theoretically my attempts to keep out of the way of Kooperkid and the hoards of 'sensible drivers' who are being forced to drive dangerously to avoid Metros could be frustrated by the ECU (don't know if it wears a flat cap or smokes a pipe). Should I be attempting to fix up a fishing line as a back up?
Edited by gnomesmith on Tuesday 18th December 12:40
quote:
The electrics on my current 'British' car mix German, UK and Japanese components. Should I trust them?
No.
quote:
Should I be attempting to fix up a fishing line as a back up?
Yes.
Seriously, I think we're getting a bit het up about this without good cause. There are so many electronic systems that could (and sometimes do) contrive to kill people on a modern car that electronic brakes are neither here nor there...
The electrics on you last two Itlian cars may have been made by Germans + Japanese, but they were installed by Italians, and there lies the problem. (Not that I trust English electrics either - having looked at Mini wiring
)
To put it simply, I would be extremely hesitant to travel in a French, Italian or British car that relied on its electrics to stop/steer. I simply don't have any reason to trust them.
) To put it simply, I would be extremely hesitant to travel in a French, Italian or British car that relied on its electrics to stop/steer. I simply don't have any reason to trust them.
quote:
If I was proposing to introduce a pioneering new car that relied upon rubber tubes of paint stripping hydroscopic fluid (that might boil away if contaminated) and needed to be purged of all air bubbles to allow the little neoprene seals to do their job in stopping the car what sort of press would I get?
You forget that this system whilst has faults is likely to give feedback to the driver that something is wrong long before something does go wrong. ie spongy brakes, harder pressure required etc.
The problem with plug and play is that if everything goes wrong you are stuck travelling at ?mph with NO BRAKES. I'll say again planes that have fly by wire are checked before flights and have fail safe systems. How many people would go through a throrough brake check before driving?
Just a short note about planes, auto pilots are that good that in theory a plane could be completely flown by remote control and auto systems. Would YOU sit in a plane like that?
Electrics in cars are supplied and built by the cheapest bidder. They have shown on several occasions, with different manufacturers that electrics are not 100% reliable in all conditions. I do not trust car manufacturers to take as great a care as the plane manufacturers.
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