RE: GT-R Laps 'Ring In 7min 30secs
Discussion
Well said honest al.
People have got some serious issues with Jap branding. Just accept that your "insert X" car is not as fast and move on. Noone expects everyone to like the same car, or for the same reasons. Nissan have produced a staggering piece of motoring history frankly. To b
h over suspension settings, tyres or bhp is to deliberately miss the HUGE point being presented. Get over it. I want one (I've never even sat in any GTR so no fanboy).
People have got some serious issues with Jap branding. Just accept that your "insert X" car is not as fast and move on. Noone expects everyone to like the same car, or for the same reasons. Nissan have produced a staggering piece of motoring history frankly. To b
h over suspension settings, tyres or bhp is to deliberately miss the HUGE point being presented. Get over it. I want one (I've never even sat in any GTR so no fanboy).
I cant believe there are so many 'self proclaimed, armchair engineers' in this thread.
All you seem to be able to do is blab away about horsepower, weights, suspension etc etc. And for probably 95% of you, you know nothing about at all.
Too many of you are blinded by the past offerings of performance manufacturers that you have taken a fancy to, and to protect your childhood dreams, nothing can be better.
Well you are so wrong. How dare all you self proclaimed people challenge the engineering technology of people who not only know what they are doing but have the knowledge, passion, resources and money to persue the challenges of European offerings.
Nissan is not a small company, nor is their budget for development. Their engineering and design people are as good as anyone else in the world.
You can be sure they bought benchmark cars to test against.
As they have stated, they have to cater for the mass of world drivers, not someone who has to handle their perhaps European masterpeice with kid gloves.
There comes a time when all the pub talk about power and handling become just that - pub talk.
Get your heads out of your butts, out of magazine write-ups and get your chequebooks out. Buy yourselves an Enzo, a Veyron, a Porsche and a GTR then make your own comparisons. Dont start judging engineering achievments based on some motoring writers comments, pub talk and your own limited knowledge of vehicle dynamics.
All you seem to be able to do is blab away about horsepower, weights, suspension etc etc. And for probably 95% of you, you know nothing about at all.
Too many of you are blinded by the past offerings of performance manufacturers that you have taken a fancy to, and to protect your childhood dreams, nothing can be better.
Well you are so wrong. How dare all you self proclaimed people challenge the engineering technology of people who not only know what they are doing but have the knowledge, passion, resources and money to persue the challenges of European offerings.
Nissan is not a small company, nor is their budget for development. Their engineering and design people are as good as anyone else in the world.
You can be sure they bought benchmark cars to test against.
As they have stated, they have to cater for the mass of world drivers, not someone who has to handle their perhaps European masterpeice with kid gloves.
There comes a time when all the pub talk about power and handling become just that - pub talk.
Get your heads out of your butts, out of magazine write-ups and get your chequebooks out. Buy yourselves an Enzo, a Veyron, a Porsche and a GTR then make your own comparisons. Dont start judging engineering achievments based on some motoring writers comments, pub talk and your own limited knowledge of vehicle dynamics.
BruceNZ said:
I cant believe there are so many 'self proclaimed, armchair engineers' in this thread.
All you seem to be able to do is blab away about horsepower, weights, suspension etc etc. And for probably 95% of you, you know nothing about at all.
Too many of you are blinded by the past offerings of performance manufacturers that you have taken a fancy to, and to protect your childhood dreams, nothing can be better.
Well you are so wrong. How dare all you self proclaimed people challenge the engineering technology of people who not only know what they are doing but have the knowledge, passion, resources and money to persue the challenges of European offerings.
Nissan is not a small company, nor is their budget for development. Their engineering and design people are as good as anyone else in the world.
You can be sure they bought benchmark cars to test against.
As they have stated, they have to cater for the mass of world drivers, not someone who has to handle their perhaps European masterpeice with kid gloves.
There comes a time when all the pub talk about power and handling become just that - pub talk.
Get your heads out of your butts, out of magazine write-ups and get your chequebooks out. Buy yourselves an Enzo, a Veyron, a Porsche and a GTR then make your own comparisons. Dont start judging engineering achievments based on some motoring writers comments, pub talk and your own limited knowledge of vehicle dynamics.
absolutely, i do get a sense of people still finding it hard to get to grips with a japanese sports car coming out on top. This is perhaps the most historic sports car ever because for the first time a maker has produced a car for a not unreasonable amount of money that comes from a place other than europe with world beating quality and dynamics.All you seem to be able to do is blab away about horsepower, weights, suspension etc etc. And for probably 95% of you, you know nothing about at all.
Too many of you are blinded by the past offerings of performance manufacturers that you have taken a fancy to, and to protect your childhood dreams, nothing can be better.
Well you are so wrong. How dare all you self proclaimed people challenge the engineering technology of people who not only know what they are doing but have the knowledge, passion, resources and money to persue the challenges of European offerings.
Nissan is not a small company, nor is their budget for development. Their engineering and design people are as good as anyone else in the world.
You can be sure they bought benchmark cars to test against.
As they have stated, they have to cater for the mass of world drivers, not someone who has to handle their perhaps European masterpeice with kid gloves.
There comes a time when all the pub talk about power and handling become just that - pub talk.
Get your heads out of your butts, out of magazine write-ups and get your chequebooks out. Buy yourselves an Enzo, a Veyron, a Porsche and a GTR then make your own comparisons. Dont start judging engineering achievments based on some motoring writers comments, pub talk and your own limited knowledge of vehicle dynamics.
not to take anything away from the other makers but it does seem that they are going to play catch up for some time yet and those who dislike japanese cars should feel happy that the likes of porsche and ferrari for the first time will be forced to buck up.
one can only imagine if nissan were to produce a car that was to be sold for the same money as the likes of the usual suspects.
we shall see.
CarMad426 said:
Theres a few things they have done to get better times at the ring
First of all the car is making 550bhp+ and most likely more than that at the ring
The first GTR wasnt a production model so basicaly anything goes, nissan have done this with every gtr they have tested take a look at the ring times and what they say about the GTR's, always doing something to cheat lighter carbon fiber bodys more power etc.
They also run a shorter track and also do a rolling start, so say 60mph roll thats 3secs quicker for a start. Lets not forget the special tyres they were using.
One of the best tests was the Road and Track test where they got a Nissan Test driver to compare the GTR vs 911turbo and ZO6 on the track, and then he even said he wasnt pushing all the cars as hard as he could which is not suprising considering he is a paid nissan driver and makes alot of money out of the gtrs, same when car and driver did a test with a "Test Mule" provided by nissan that suddenly managed much faster mph in the 1/4 mile even though there shouldnt be much variation due to the launch control and electronics allowing anyone to launch it well.
A "Test Mule" why would nissan send that when they allready have the real cars on the road, well thats nissan legal speak for we winded up the boost and stripped out the car, but you cant call us on it because its "Test Mule" and nissan never said it would be the same as the stock road car you buy.
A higher mph trap speed in the 1/4 is normally because of lighter weight or more power as the gtrs launch control should be pretty consistant so it shows that something is not right and its a shame that those magazines do that just so they can sell more copies but its been going on for years even back to the days of the E-Type and Astons, i suppose its something we are stuck with. I think we need a SAE test for all cars in performance done in more controlled condidtions same as they have been doing with the SAE dyno tests on the new corvettes.
Also in the only independant test of the stock jap GTR with "sport auto" it only managed 7:50 with the test driver talking about how hard it would be to get 7:40's out of the GTR. And thats from Horst von Saurma who has a ton of driving time in lots of different cars on the ring he has 30 top laptimes times on that ring time list with alot of serious machines so he knows how to drive.
Funny thing is that nissan wont let him test the GTR again after that, they have had loads of "test mules" sent out to the magazines that they know will give them good reviews but funny how they havent let sport auto do another test.
I dont know what to make of the 7:29 time i think the words "revised chassis settings" say alot, its a bit like "Test Mule" or "Pre Production" just another way to say we fiddled with the car and did everything we could to make it as fast as possible. I think nissan must have done some significant mods to drop 21seconds compared to the sport auto test on a timed lap of the ring under similar conditions the only difference being that sport auto drove a real jap stock GTR rather than the tweaked "Test Mule" nissan was using. 21 seconds is a masive difference.
I think sport auto do a good job of testing cars and the fact that nissan havent give them another car to test shows me alot about about the real performance of the GTR.
I think the biggest problem with testing at the ring is if you want to compare cars you would have to run them on the same day same driver, with a driver that isnt in the pocket of nissan or auto manufacturer.
I think that the new GTR will be a good car dispite all this cheating and crap, but i wouldnt want to start modding one, its probably best to leave it alone and just drive it stock as the engine is very highly strung at 550bhp as it is.
I missed this post yesterday. It probably the most thought out post in the thread.First of all the car is making 550bhp+ and most likely more than that at the ring
The first GTR wasnt a production model so basicaly anything goes, nissan have done this with every gtr they have tested take a look at the ring times and what they say about the GTR's, always doing something to cheat lighter carbon fiber bodys more power etc.
They also run a shorter track and also do a rolling start, so say 60mph roll thats 3secs quicker for a start. Lets not forget the special tyres they were using.
One of the best tests was the Road and Track test where they got a Nissan Test driver to compare the GTR vs 911turbo and ZO6 on the track, and then he even said he wasnt pushing all the cars as hard as he could which is not suprising considering he is a paid nissan driver and makes alot of money out of the gtrs, same when car and driver did a test with a "Test Mule" provided by nissan that suddenly managed much faster mph in the 1/4 mile even though there shouldnt be much variation due to the launch control and electronics allowing anyone to launch it well.
A "Test Mule" why would nissan send that when they allready have the real cars on the road, well thats nissan legal speak for we winded up the boost and stripped out the car, but you cant call us on it because its "Test Mule" and nissan never said it would be the same as the stock road car you buy.
A higher mph trap speed in the 1/4 is normally because of lighter weight or more power as the gtrs launch control should be pretty consistant so it shows that something is not right and its a shame that those magazines do that just so they can sell more copies but its been going on for years even back to the days of the E-Type and Astons, i suppose its something we are stuck with. I think we need a SAE test for all cars in performance done in more controlled condidtions same as they have been doing with the SAE dyno tests on the new corvettes.
Also in the only independant test of the stock jap GTR with "sport auto" it only managed 7:50 with the test driver talking about how hard it would be to get 7:40's out of the GTR. And thats from Horst von Saurma who has a ton of driving time in lots of different cars on the ring he has 30 top laptimes times on that ring time list with alot of serious machines so he knows how to drive.
Funny thing is that nissan wont let him test the GTR again after that, they have had loads of "test mules" sent out to the magazines that they know will give them good reviews but funny how they havent let sport auto do another test.
I dont know what to make of the 7:29 time i think the words "revised chassis settings" say alot, its a bit like "Test Mule" or "Pre Production" just another way to say we fiddled with the car and did everything we could to make it as fast as possible. I think nissan must have done some significant mods to drop 21seconds compared to the sport auto test on a timed lap of the ring under similar conditions the only difference being that sport auto drove a real jap stock GTR rather than the tweaked "Test Mule" nissan was using. 21 seconds is a masive difference.
I think sport auto do a good job of testing cars and the fact that nissan havent give them another car to test shows me alot about about the real performance of the GTR.
I think the biggest problem with testing at the ring is if you want to compare cars you would have to run them on the same day same driver, with a driver that isnt in the pocket of nissan or auto manufacturer.
I think that the new GTR will be a good car dispite all this cheating and crap, but i wouldnt want to start modding one, its probably best to leave it alone and just drive it stock as the engine is very highly strung at 550bhp as it is.
jon- said:
blunder13 said:
Andrew[MG] said:
Is there a list of top Nurburgring times?
I looked everywhere for a list of top times. Couldn't find any anywhere.On the rings own site all I could find was a statement saying on free run days it was discouraged to attempt a fast/hot lap for the safety of others. Not much help there.
I too would be interested in which cars/drivers have got round quickest.
http://www.supercars.net/PitLane?viewThread=y&...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordschleife_fastest_...
TimJMS said:
Kawasicki said:
Does anybody find the claimed lateral acceleration of 1.8G in a road car strange?
With the right tyres on the right surface with 4WS and some ground effect...The sublime M3CSL could pull 1.4g. Times move on. What can the KTM X-Bow manage, anyone? That's got to be pretty much the benchmark these days?
Kawasicki said:
TimJMS said:
Kawasicki said:
Does anybody find the claimed lateral acceleration of 1.8G in a road car strange?
With the right tyres on the right surface with 4WS and some ground effect...The sublime M3CSL could pull 1.4g. Times move on. What can the KTM X-Bow manage, anyone? That's got to be pretty much the benchmark these days?
My brother's has arrived on these shores it is a white one he is now rushing round to get it road registered as we are off to the Ring next weekend. Will be able to report back on how good these things really are, once a few miles on it will compare it to my deristricted E60 M5 hopefully on way back on the Autobahn!
jon- said:
Kawasicki said:
TimJMS said:
Kawasicki said:
Does anybody find the claimed lateral acceleration of 1.8G in a road car strange?
With the right tyres on the right surface with 4WS and some ground effect...The sublime M3CSL could pull 1.4g. Times move on. What can the KTM X-Bow manage, anyone? That's got to be pretty much the benchmark these days?
Boooolllaarrrrkkkkksssss!
Maybe a peak in a transient in a 20deg banked corner
Check out www.track-challenge.com for the g's pulled at the Ring, they are LOADS higher than sustained skidpan g's due to banking and them not being sustained but peaks. Even an Evo VII back in the day could get peaks on a skidpan up near 1.2g iirc.
Dave
barefoot said:
My brother's has arrived on these shores it is a white one he is now rushing round to get it road registered as we are off to the Ring next weekend. Will be able to report back on how good these things really are, once a few miles on it will compare it to my deristricted E60 M5 hopefully on way back on the Autobahn!
Sounds like a fun project. Please keep us posted.BTW I looked up your profile. Nice collection of cars you've had over the years.
Miguel
Faster than a SLR722 around the ring and the Top gear track...??
7:27 Pagani Zonda F Clubsport
7:28 Porsche Carrera GT
7:33 Pagani Zonda F
7:34 Koenigsegg CCR
7:36 Mercedes SL63AMG BLack Series
7:38 Mercedes SLR 722 GT
7:39 Porsche 997 GT3
7:39 Koenigsegg CCR
7:40 Bugatti Veyron
7:40 Lamborghini LP640 Murcielago
7:40 Mercedes Benz CLK DTM AMG
7:40 Mercedes SLR
7:42 Ford GT
7:42 Corvette C6 Z06
7:43 Lamborghini Murcielago
7:44 Pagani Zonda C12 S
While everyone's questioning the GTR, can I just point out that no one has questioned how a 414hp 911 is faster than a 1150hp 4WD supercar (Bugatti's claim of 1001 is apparently conservative). An arse-engined 2WD 911 is also not that far off a bespoke carbon-chassied Porsche with an engine originally developed for Le Mans.... HHmmmm
Tyres, boys, tyres are what make road cars progress. And besides the genius chemical rubber formulations, the CAD tread and carcass designs, it seems high performance tyres are getting softer, hence the Bug's wearing out in 2000 miles - which is also why a two ton car built by Volkswagen goes down a twisty road as well as it does!
Nissan have been building Ringmeisters longer than VW.
You'd have to have plutonium balls to drive a Radical faster than a multi-airbagged 4WD car around the circuit of Lauda's near-demise.
7:27 Pagani Zonda F Clubsport
7:28 Porsche Carrera GT
- 7:29 Nissan GT-R BASE with stock tyres###
7:33 Pagani Zonda F
7:34 Koenigsegg CCR
7:36 Mercedes SL63AMG BLack Series
7:38 Mercedes SLR 722 GT
7:39 Porsche 997 GT3
7:39 Koenigsegg CCR
7:40 Bugatti Veyron
7:40 Lamborghini LP640 Murcielago
7:40 Mercedes Benz CLK DTM AMG
7:40 Mercedes SLR
7:42 Ford GT
7:42 Corvette C6 Z06
7:43 Lamborghini Murcielago
7:44 Pagani Zonda C12 S
While everyone's questioning the GTR, can I just point out that no one has questioned how a 414hp 911 is faster than a 1150hp 4WD supercar (Bugatti's claim of 1001 is apparently conservative). An arse-engined 2WD 911 is also not that far off a bespoke carbon-chassied Porsche with an engine originally developed for Le Mans.... HHmmmm
Tyres, boys, tyres are what make road cars progress. And besides the genius chemical rubber formulations, the CAD tread and carcass designs, it seems high performance tyres are getting softer, hence the Bug's wearing out in 2000 miles - which is also why a two ton car built by Volkswagen goes down a twisty road as well as it does!
Nissan have been building Ringmeisters longer than VW.
You'd have to have plutonium balls to drive a Radical faster than a multi-airbagged 4WD car around the circuit of Lauda's near-demise.
DannyT said:
I just cannot bring myself to care!!! In the current climate, my passion is to enjoy a car as much as possible on the public road without attracting too much attention or a prison sentence! Therefore what interests me is low weight, maximum driver involvement and an ability to put a grin on my face at something less than hypersonic speeds. While I appreciate that the Nissan is a triumph of engineering over physics it just does not do anything for me at all. Yawn.
Couldn't agree more, but I am VERY impressed by it. Wouldn't swap one for my E34 M5 thoughhousemaster said:
Lets wait and see, both sides of this argument are simply conjecture, NO ONE contributing to this thread knows the FACTS about the test times, no point trying to construct reasons why it must be wrong or right if you ask me, it will all come out in the wash. On paper it seems and amazing achievement. For me a car is much more than paper, my RS4 bores me to death and paper was telling me how fantastic it was as many owners and fanboys keep trying to convince me.
Because a car laps the Ring in time X means nothing outside the pub in real terms...
"My RS4 bores me to death" is one of the more interesting things I've read on a car forum for some time.Because a car laps the Ring in time X means nothing outside the pub in real terms...
I have only read about the RS4 and it sounds extremely competent next to current BM/Merc, and may even provoke affection on account of its fabulous engine. I have driven older Audi S4's and S3's that left me very impressed, but very very unmoved. Neither car had anything to do with me. It's like paying for a very beautiful escort who smiles for the benefit of onlookers, and you know you should be pleased they're on your arm, but actually its all a bit false.
I recently sold an E39 Sport 530i. Fabulous car in every objective sense but dull enough to explode your head, unless you were driving fit to have an accident.
My (second) E34 M5 however.... Today I decided to nail it out of every T-junction just because the roads were a bit damp, and the way the tail slewed gracefully around into perfect alignment reminded me what a genuine flatterer this car is. It's not a false laugh at my jokes, it's genuinely comfortable with my ham-fistedness, it's suave enough mechnical company to make me feel like Schumacher or Alesi, it's a Countess of performance cars. Apparently it's well over a minute slower than a Veyron or a GT3 around the 'Ring.
Mine is the face of concern...
Edited by Baddie on Friday 2nd May 23:57
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