RE: Lotus Terminates European Dealer Network
Discussion
Re: "95% of buyers have made up their mind about the brand before they walk in" - I sincerely doubt it. Twice I've considered an Elise (S1 111S and then S2 111R, and then twice I've bought something else after a test-drive. Yet on both occasions the (small, indy) dealerships were excellent, were enthusiasts not sales-people, and gave me real confidence in dealing with them long-term. It was the car that 'wasn't right' for me.
Re: "big PLC dealerships" - I REALLY hope not - see above. IMHO there are very few big-corporate dealerships that actually give a stuff about the customer, and Lotus is more of an 'enthusiasts marque' than e.g. Porsche, BMW etc., where many buyers buy on badge and image, and want that whole glitz of a shiny dealership. If Lotus want to poach Porsche punters, then fair enough...but I can see them alientating some of their core market as a result...
I can't see a good rationale for this move. If they want to 'move upmarket', fine...but why throw the baby out with the bathwater...I can't see them being able to ditch the (volume-sales) Elise for some time yet and still be a viable company, and Elise buyers are typically out-and-out petrolheads who'd rather deal with a like-minded individual than some sales/service clone.
They CANNOT go toe-to-toe with the true exotica right now (IMHO not even in 10 years), and they'll struggle even vs Porsche in the medium-term. I hope they've got something good lined up, because I've a nasty feeling they'll need it.
Re: "big PLC dealerships" - I REALLY hope not - see above. IMHO there are very few big-corporate dealerships that actually give a stuff about the customer, and Lotus is more of an 'enthusiasts marque' than e.g. Porsche, BMW etc., where many buyers buy on badge and image, and want that whole glitz of a shiny dealership. If Lotus want to poach Porsche punters, then fair enough...but I can see them alientating some of their core market as a result...
I can't see a good rationale for this move. If they want to 'move upmarket', fine...but why throw the baby out with the bathwater...I can't see them being able to ditch the (volume-sales) Elise for some time yet and still be a viable company, and Elise buyers are typically out-and-out petrolheads who'd rather deal with a like-minded individual than some sales/service clone.
They CANNOT go toe-to-toe with the true exotica right now (IMHO not even in 10 years), and they'll struggle even vs Porsche in the medium-term. I hope they've got something good lined up, because I've a nasty feeling they'll need it.
what many people forget is the elise and evora are really hi tech - far more than their competitors. why would someone spend £80k + on an aston with the similar chassis to a £25k elise, or £160k+ on a ferrari which is just welded steel and a simple, albeit good looking body. it is all about the brand and lotus is lifting their game - anyone see their stand at goodwood FoS? it was really impressive and far better than mclaren's tent.
Edited by kent elise r on Friday 9th July 14:32
Alfa numeric said:
Morgan have branched upwards recently- the Aeromax model is over £100k and noone's batted an eyelid. They've not stopped building the cheaper models though- hopefully Lotus's model is somewhat similar.
I'd hate to see it go under.
They build piss pot numbers of Aeromax in a garden shed with next to no overheads.I'd hate to see it go under.
Lotus is a different kettle of fish IMHO
Snoggledog said:
bertie said:
Tuna said:
I'm with cathalm on this one - the same responses are all to the shock headlines, and virtually all ignore the details of the stories. It's pretty clear that most commentators on PH haven't a clue what Lotus are doing and have no idea what the model range is going to be.
We do know the bones of the plan, 5 models, all £50k plus, target volume 10,000 cars.I ask again, does that sound viable ?
kent elise r said:
what many people forget is the elise and evora are really hi tech - far more than their competitors. why would someone spend £80k + on an aston with the similar chassis to a £25k elise, or £160k+ on a ferrari which is just welded steel and a simple, albeit good looking body. it is all about the brand and lotus is lifting their game - anyone see their stand at goodwood FoS? it was really impressive and far better than mclaren's tent.
Which Ferrari is that? Everything since the 360, ie the last 10 years, has been alumunium.Edited by kent elise r on Friday 9th July 14:32
But yes, the Lotus chassis was way ahead of its time, look how Aston now use the same construction.
I too am concerned about Lotus trying to go to a part of the market they really haven't been in since the Esprit. When they did not go ahead with the Etna (remember that) they abandoned the top end of the market. The brand has a lot going for it though. It has a back catalogue of racing cars that is second only to Ferrari and McLaren. It has made some iconic road cars but the problem is they have been at the affordable end of a niche enthusiast market generally. Many of the people who owned Elans, Elites, Eclats etc (even as second hand sheds) probably have a lot of affection for the brand even though their cars undoubtedly p@#$ed them off. Its the same with Alfa. We all want Alfa and Lotus to make a car that we can buy and we would all sprint to the nearest showroom if they did.
I do find it funny to see people compare the situation of Lotus competing with the likes of Porsche and Ferrari to Peugeot competing with BMW. Remember that BMW was a relative nothing before the '02 models. It sold the Isetta bubble car to stay afloat. Nothing is static in the world of branding. Make great products and the people will come to the showroom. The main concern I have for the new strategy is from where are they going to get a suitable engine. I won't even buy an Elise because it has a Toyota engine let alone a Porsche competitor. The heart and soul of a car is its engine and Toyotas don't have any soul.
I do find it funny to see people compare the situation of Lotus competing with the likes of Porsche and Ferrari to Peugeot competing with BMW. Remember that BMW was a relative nothing before the '02 models. It sold the Isetta bubble car to stay afloat. Nothing is static in the world of branding. Make great products and the people will come to the showroom. The main concern I have for the new strategy is from where are they going to get a suitable engine. I won't even buy an Elise because it has a Toyota engine let alone a Porsche competitor. The heart and soul of a car is its engine and Toyotas don't have any soul.
bertie said:
kent elise r said:
what many people forget is the elise and evora are really hi tech - far more than their competitors. why would someone spend £80k + on an aston with the similar chassis to a £25k elise, or £160k+ on a ferrari which is just welded steel and a simple, albeit good looking body. it is all about the brand and lotus is lifting their game - anyone see their stand at goodwood FoS? it was really impressive and far better than mclaren's tent.
Which Ferrari is that? Everything since the 360, ie the last 10 years, has been alumunium.But yes, the Lotus chassis was way ahead of its time, look how Aston now use the same construction.
- The K-series was a good, light engine for the S1, but wasn't exactly high-tech or the most characterful.
- the 'yota VVTi-L engine is a near-copy of the 14y.o. Honda B18C, and a slightly inferior one at that. Peakier than the VTECs, too. But at least it feels like a sports-car engine.
- the Vauxhall 2.0T is a particularly uninspiring engine all-round.
- the 'yota V6 is a decent engine, but you have to wonder who's tuned it, as most reports say it sounds particularly anodyne/dull, which vs the benchmarks (Porsche Cayman/911, Z4M, 2nd-hand TVRs or NSXs, etc.) rather lets it down.
To succeed Lotus will have to drop some of the Chapman ideology because lightness and perceived quality are for the most part mutually exclusive. Ive had plenty of lotus but in the end they have all been way off base compared with the perceived quality and indeed actual quality of the competitors. Porsche make some of the heaviest clunkers in the business as do Aston, lambo and ferrari. I always viewed my lotus as up market kit car which are in its roots of course but in the end I caved in and went maintstream and gained more than I lost. Unfortunately if we recognise it as a pure lotus they will fail much like I expect Noble will.
I think, in contrary to some other PHers, that the managers of Lotus (or Proton) do know exactly what they are doing. I can imagine That one part of the plan is to get even more fuel efficiency. I also don't think they will drop the Elise - hopefully.It is definitely a reasonable priced sportscar and therefore a good entry model. Especially when you consider that all manufacturers are "downsizing". Then they need something upmarket - like the old Esprit - to get the customers which have gotten to old for the Elise or just want more performance. I can also imagine some hybrid / electric cars.
The termination of the Dealer Network may be necessary to rework the contracts for the new model range and busines plan. Even if they will sort out some of the old dealers, maybe there will be new ones. Also the plan to get together with a mass production car marque sounds not so bad to me. This would tihgten the dealer network dramaticaly, which can't be to bad.
I wish them all the best to pass these hard times..
The termination of the Dealer Network may be necessary to rework the contracts for the new model range and busines plan. Even if they will sort out some of the old dealers, maybe there will be new ones. Also the plan to get together with a mass production car marque sounds not so bad to me. This would tihgten the dealer network dramaticaly, which can't be to bad.
I wish them all the best to pass these hard times..
bertie said:
The level of engineering and investment at Mclaren is in a different league as is the brand.
In terms of road cars, is that really true? How much experience has McLaren of testing for winter conditions, consumer reliability, dealer servicing, and 'mass production' features such as air con and ICE? I've no doubt they'll do a great job, but it's a bit like getting Fabergé to produce a sports watch. Just because it's 'down market' from their normal product doesn't make it easier. It took Audi to show Lambourghini how to produce a mass market supercar.McLaren aren't likely to produce cars with windscreens held in by bathroom sealant, but their cars have it all to loose which must be a stressful position.
By contrast, Lotus consult with the best - and whilst they go to great lengths not to talk about their customers, it's fairly well understood that they've been involved in some very high end models and nearly every manufacturer.
Trouble is everything is a moving target......almost everyone else is owned by a LARGE manufactor.....with BIG R+D budgets. Look at Porsche this week with their "Flybrid" GT3 or BMW with their Carbon shell "Mega city".....look at the pace & costs.
Lotus Alloy bonded frame is pre 2000, Mac are going Carbon Tub with MP4-12 c Ferrari, Lambo will follow.....rummor Aston is looking at it. Will Lotus?
Mike
Lotus Alloy bonded frame is pre 2000, Mac are going Carbon Tub with MP4-12 c Ferrari, Lambo will follow.....rummor Aston is looking at it. Will Lotus?
Mike
As others already stated Lotus will need a bespoke engine for every model of the new line-up if they are to compete with Porsche, Ferrari and Lamborghini.
The money that the development and production of these engines and the complexity of the spare parts logistics will need is something Lotus is not likely to get from Proton. It's several hundreds of million pounds, as the engines must be up on par with the best engines of the world in the competitor's vehicles. And Lotus has only one try. If engines proof unreliable, they will be lost.
I hope Lotus goes not down the drain like TVR when they made their AJP V8 and Speed 6.
The money that the development and production of these engines and the complexity of the spare parts logistics will need is something Lotus is not likely to get from Proton. It's several hundreds of million pounds, as the engines must be up on par with the best engines of the world in the competitor's vehicles. And Lotus has only one try. If engines proof unreliable, they will be lost.
I hope Lotus goes not down the drain like TVR when they made their AJP V8 and Speed 6.
bertie said:
Tuna said:
bertie said:
The level of engineering and investment at Mclaren is in a different league as is the brand.
In terms of road cars, is that really true?
Being outside of the industry, some of us have to try and work stuff out and don't happen to have Gordon Murray on the phone. If you've got better experience, why not give us the benefit?
The amount of Déjà vu that I suffer nowadays makes me feel really old.
I remember Lotus ditching the old low image to produce fancy cars before.
So they sold the rights for the unmarketable Lotus 7 to Caterham.
Lotus has often made cars that I fancy, but seldom ones that I fit into. If they want to increase sales they really must find a way to accommodate tall drivers without sacrificing the light weight too much.
As a result I only ever had two; one from just before they went ‘upmarket’ and one from just after. The earlier car was so much better. The later car put me off.
It was years before they built anything that might have tempted me back, if only it had accommodated tall drivers.
I doubt this will end well for Lotus and hope that they sell the rights to the existing range to someone like Caterham before they repeat the mistake.
A slightly bigger Elise so that tall people can look through the windscreen and put the roof on would tap into a whole new piece of the market.
I remember Lotus ditching the old low image to produce fancy cars before.
So they sold the rights for the unmarketable Lotus 7 to Caterham.
Lotus has often made cars that I fancy, but seldom ones that I fit into. If they want to increase sales they really must find a way to accommodate tall drivers without sacrificing the light weight too much.
As a result I only ever had two; one from just before they went ‘upmarket’ and one from just after. The earlier car was so much better. The later car put me off.
It was years before they built anything that might have tempted me back, if only it had accommodated tall drivers.
I doubt this will end well for Lotus and hope that they sell the rights to the existing range to someone like Caterham before they repeat the mistake.
A slightly bigger Elise so that tall people can look through the windscreen and put the roof on would tap into a whole new piece of the market.
The problem Lotus face is that while everyone makes the right noises about wanting lightweight driver focused cars they end up caving in and buying on brand.
If all performance car enthusiasts were true to their word we would all be driving Caterhams. BMW are selling new Z4's left right and center. They are an almost shameful 1600 KGs and loaded with electronic garbage but people love them. Lotus have a wonderful history and real genuine heritage but when it comes to cars only a few of us actually put our money where our mouth is and buy such things. Consumers these days value bling and image over heritage and driving experience.
If all performance car enthusiasts were true to their word we would all be driving Caterhams. BMW are selling new Z4's left right and center. They are an almost shameful 1600 KGs and loaded with electronic garbage but people love them. Lotus have a wonderful history and real genuine heritage but when it comes to cars only a few of us actually put our money where our mouth is and buy such things. Consumers these days value bling and image over heritage and driving experience.
fridaypassion said:
The problem Lotus face is that while everyone makes the right noises about wanting lightweight driver focused cars they end up caving in and buying on brand.
If all performance car enthusiasts were true to their word we would all be driving Caterhams. ... Lotus have a wonderful history and real genuine heritage but when it comes to cars only a few of us actually put our money where our mouth is and buy such things. Consumers these days value bling and image over heritage and driving experience.
I don't think it's just that. Caterfields (and the Elise, to a fair degree) are very uncompromising cars - no/minimal luggage space and minimal concessions to comfort and everyday/long-distance usability.If all performance car enthusiasts were true to their word we would all be driving Caterhams. ... Lotus have a wonderful history and real genuine heritage but when it comes to cars only a few of us actually put our money where our mouth is and buy such things. Consumers these days value bling and image over heritage and driving experience.
And while some people CAN afford a brand-new track or short-range B-road car alongside a practical car, for many of the rest of us a car that expensive (mid-£20k upwards new for both brands, which is what matters to the mfrs) has to be a compromise - something that's either an everyday car, or is at least practical-enough and acceptable-enough to the wife/girlfriend for weekends away / holidays.
There's also the issue of 'where/when can I use it properly'...and "do I really want to commute on the M-way today in that car".
These cars genuinely ARE among the best to drive...but in achieving that they've distanced themselves from the majority of even the petrolhead population. And this coming from someone who used an ITR as an only car for 3+ years and 50k+ miles, and who still commutes in one. Not the same league of 'hardcore', I fully realise, but a lot more so than 95% of the cars on the road!
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