Discussion
Tried to nip the pins up but it wasn't going to leave much clearance, so the only course of action was to push the pins out.
Fitted the pins properly and now I have this, which looks a country mile better. Looks more convincing with the hex seated up properly against the plate.
The pins have some damage, so have have tidied these up as carefully as I dare.
Just need the new star washers to appear, hopefully tomorrow.
Fitted the pins properly and now I have this, which looks a country mile better. Looks more convincing with the hex seated up properly against the plate.
The pins have some damage, so have have tidied these up as carefully as I dare.
Just need the new star washers to appear, hopefully tomorrow.
Star washers appeared and were duly fitted. I’ve now fitted up the clutch, got the bell housing in and bled the hydraulics.
Result: Not convincing....
Secondary plate now has clearance, but the primary plate at the flywheel does not get sufficient movement.
I’ll bleed the hydraulics again over the next day or so to see if that wins any further movement. From earlier work I’ve got the adjustment at the master to it’s max and if anything I’d rather be reducing that - still possible I suppose if there is some air trapped.
The pedal feel is decent, so I’m thinking that I’m being optimistic here. I suspect there is a slight moment of the pins at the star washers.
Worst case it’s a new clutch.
Does the club membership give discount at any of the bigger suppliers?
Cheers,
Brian
Result: Not convincing....
Secondary plate now has clearance, but the primary plate at the flywheel does not get sufficient movement.
I’ll bleed the hydraulics again over the next day or so to see if that wins any further movement. From earlier work I’ve got the adjustment at the master to it’s max and if anything I’d rather be reducing that - still possible I suppose if there is some air trapped.
The pedal feel is decent, so I’m thinking that I’m being optimistic here. I suspect there is a slight moment of the pins at the star washers.
Worst case it’s a new clutch.
Does the club membership give discount at any of the bigger suppliers?
Cheers,
Brian
If you look as ukkid35's photo you'll notice that the intermediate plate has half of the springs cut away on the finger place side. This means there will be a bigger push away from the flywheel. I also had this on the first clutch I replaced. As a last resort it might be worth trying.
Bogsye said:
Secondary plate now has clearance, but the primary plate at the flywheel does not get sufficient movement.
Assuming the friction plate isn't distorted, and you followed the guidance properly, there's only one reason that can happen .. that the compressibility of the friction lining is too great. ie the plate springs out more when the clamp load is released than the distance allowed by the starlock washers in their recesses.I have never seen the issues you are having with genuine AP stuff , therefore if you are indeed assembling it all correctly then the issue must surely lie with the reconditioned elements of the clutch ?
Thanks both.
The springs look to be the originals, as I can see wear marks on the ones which contact the flywheel surface. The clutch worked prior to being 'reconditioned'. I did observe the two leaf springs are different guages between the primary and secondary plates. That seems to be in order.
I suppose if the leaf springs are weak, then the gap won't reliably be opened. The secondary plate has heavier guage springs than the primary one at the flywheel face, so I guess it's going to overpower those and allow the gap to open on the secondary plate first.
I've added another video to my excting YouTube series...This hopefully makes it easier to understand compared to my words.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMbfPwJz0l4
I played the video on my laptop and put a post-it on the screen so that I could mark the initial and final positions of the components.
The secondary plate has plenty clearance - Visually there's obvious movement,and the plate has clearance, but what's not so obvious is whether there's a little bit of loss of movement as the star washer stars/pins pull on the plate to open the gap for the primary friction plate.
I'm not so sure it's a compressibility issue of the linings, (so far). I was thinking if the lining was too compressible the secondary plate would get sqaushed, and then the star washers would be moved further down their pins, resulting in the secondary friction plate having no clearance when the clutch pedal is depressed? It would almost be like it's repositioned itself to account for wear.
My main question is whether there is enough movement (actuation) of the clutch unit? The company that rebuilt it made the commented that they adjusted the diaphragm spring angle when it went back second time to give it more movement.
If I understand this correctly, to operate without drag each plate needs between 0.5 and 1.0mm. So this would need 2 x clearance plus the difference between the star washer depth and the recess,
Things to do:
1) Bleed the hydraulics again to be sure
2) Measure the secondary friction plate clearance and compare to star washer thickness minus the recess depth
Sorry for the slightly chaotic post - my thoughts are processing as I go back and forth between the video's and various thoughts that you've kindly offered. At this stage it looks like I've fixed the problme of the pins (to some extent) but the weakness of the rebuild is that the leaf springs are the originals and show some signs of wear.
Beyond that I think a new AP clutch is on the cards. Might also seek a refund on the 'refurbishment'.
Thanks again,
Brian
The springs look to be the originals, as I can see wear marks on the ones which contact the flywheel surface. The clutch worked prior to being 'reconditioned'. I did observe the two leaf springs are different guages between the primary and secondary plates. That seems to be in order.
I suppose if the leaf springs are weak, then the gap won't reliably be opened. The secondary plate has heavier guage springs than the primary one at the flywheel face, so I guess it's going to overpower those and allow the gap to open on the secondary plate first.
I've added another video to my excting YouTube series...This hopefully makes it easier to understand compared to my words.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CMbfPwJz0l4
I played the video on my laptop and put a post-it on the screen so that I could mark the initial and final positions of the components.
The secondary plate has plenty clearance - Visually there's obvious movement,and the plate has clearance, but what's not so obvious is whether there's a little bit of loss of movement as the star washer stars/pins pull on the plate to open the gap for the primary friction plate.
I'm not so sure it's a compressibility issue of the linings, (so far). I was thinking if the lining was too compressible the secondary plate would get sqaushed, and then the star washers would be moved further down their pins, resulting in the secondary friction plate having no clearance when the clutch pedal is depressed? It would almost be like it's repositioned itself to account for wear.
My main question is whether there is enough movement (actuation) of the clutch unit? The company that rebuilt it made the commented that they adjusted the diaphragm spring angle when it went back second time to give it more movement.
If I understand this correctly, to operate without drag each plate needs between 0.5 and 1.0mm. So this would need 2 x clearance plus the difference between the star washer depth and the recess,
Things to do:
1) Bleed the hydraulics again to be sure
2) Measure the secondary friction plate clearance and compare to star washer thickness minus the recess depth
Sorry for the slightly chaotic post - my thoughts are processing as I go back and forth between the video's and various thoughts that you've kindly offered. At this stage it looks like I've fixed the problme of the pins (to some extent) but the weakness of the rebuild is that the leaf springs are the originals and show some signs of wear.
Beyond that I think a new AP clutch is on the cards. Might also seek a refund on the 'refurbishment'.
Thanks again,
Brian
Ah the video makes it clearer .. the distance moved by the plate pulling the pins does indeed look good, it's the other friction plate which isn't being released .. I was thinking it was the other way around. I think we need to give each component in the clutch assembly a proper name so that we know exactly which bit is being talked about.
Last time I bought a clutch from TVR Parts Limited, they gave me 7.5% discount for having TVRCC membership.
When I told my TVR guru he wasn't best pleased, as that seems to be the standard trade discount that he gets.
I hasten to add that I wouldn't dream of buying parts direct and then expect him to fit them.
The clutch was bought for a friend, whose clutch had failed away from both home and wallet, and was fitted by another friend who has tools, skill and ramp.
When I told my TVR guru he wasn't best pleased, as that seems to be the standard trade discount that he gets.
I hasten to add that I wouldn't dream of buying parts direct and then expect him to fit them.
The clutch was bought for a friend, whose clutch had failed away from both home and wallet, and was fitted by another friend who has tools, skill and ramp.
That's good to know the movement looks reasonable. Think I'll have to devise a photo and give the bits names.
I think I'll add to my list - hold the clutch down and see if I can persuade the plate nearest the flywheel to move. That might help identify it it's the leaf springs that are tired. Suspect this is ultimately looking like a replacement job, albeit I now understnad the whole thing better. I should really do a clean write-up of this to collate things a bit more.
Thanks Qbee for the info on the discounts. It essentially pays for a years subs.
I noticed that Powers market their clutch as uprated, seemingly to cope with their upgraded engines. Not sure I can justify their full price, and I also don't rag my standard car to within an inch of it's life. Hmmh. I usually heed the 'buy cheap buy twice' mantra, but have not done well in this case..
I think I'll add to my list - hold the clutch down and see if I can persuade the plate nearest the flywheel to move. That might help identify it it's the leaf springs that are tired. Suspect this is ultimately looking like a replacement job, albeit I now understnad the whole thing better. I should really do a clean write-up of this to collate things a bit more.
Thanks Qbee for the info on the discounts. It essentially pays for a years subs.
I noticed that Powers market their clutch as uprated, seemingly to cope with their upgraded engines. Not sure I can justify their full price, and I also don't rag my standard car to within an inch of it's life. Hmmh. I usually heed the 'buy cheap buy twice' mantra, but have not done well in this case..
Bogsye said:
That's good to know the movement looks reasonable. Think I'll have to devise a photo and give the bits names.
I think I'll add to my list - hold the clutch down and see if I can persuade the plate nearest the flywheel to move. That might help identify it it's the leaf springs that are tired. Suspect this is ultimately looking like a replacement job, albeit I now understnad the whole thing better. I should really do a clean write-up of this to collate things a bit more.
Thanks Qbee for the info on the discounts. It essentially pays for a years subs.
I noticed that Powers market their clutch as uprated, seemingly to cope with their upgraded engines. Not sure I can justify their full price, and I also don't rag my standard car to within an inch of it's life. Hmmh. I usually heed the 'buy cheap buy twice' mantra, but have not done well in this case..
Has the pedal feel got worse since you changed the pin heights? Wont those pins set the overall height of the unit ? if so they will also give more preload to the flywheel side spring plates when bolted to the flywheel. Maybe its been skimmed and they set them as they did to compensate.I think I'll add to my list - hold the clutch down and see if I can persuade the plate nearest the flywheel to move. That might help identify it it's the leaf springs that are tired. Suspect this is ultimately looking like a replacement job, albeit I now understnad the whole thing better. I should really do a clean write-up of this to collate things a bit more.
Thanks Qbee for the info on the discounts. It essentially pays for a years subs.
I noticed that Powers market their clutch as uprated, seemingly to cope with their upgraded engines. Not sure I can justify their full price, and I also don't rag my standard car to within an inch of it's life. Hmmh. I usually heed the 'buy cheap buy twice' mantra, but have not done well in this case..
The pin should be fixed as the star washer movement is controlled by the depth of the recess it sits in. This allows the star washer to move one direction on the pin and compensate for wear. Quite a neat and simple solution I think.
That aspect is probably now working correctly. It would appear the next issue are the leaf springs at the flywheel - these are possibly worn and weakened, hence not moving the driven plate off from the primary plate.
I’ll examine it more if this rain stops...
Cheers,
Brian
That aspect is probably now working correctly. It would appear the next issue are the leaf springs at the flywheel - these are possibly worn and weakened, hence not moving the driven plate off from the primary plate.
I’ll examine it more if this rain stops...
Cheers,
Brian
notaping said:
If you look as ukkid35's photo you'll notice that the intermediate plate has half of the springs cut away on the finger place side. This means there will be a bigger push away from the flywheel. I also had this on the first clutch I replaced. As a last resort it might be worth trying.
I was just studying this photo a bit more, and that has more spacers underneath the leaf spring at the flywheel side. Mine has none.Had another look at this at lunchtime.
I depressed the clutch pedal and jammed it down to allow me to examine the clearances. I reckon I’m seeing just over 1mm at the secondary friction plate and nowt at the primary one that mates to the engine flywheel.
If I carefully pry the driven plate beside the primary friction plate it moves reasonably well.
I think the start washers and pins are okay, but perhaps loosing me some movement, but possibly the overriding factor is that the leaf springs at the primary friction plate are not performing well.
Given that I’d rather be driving than spannering I think I’ll throw in the towel with this one and get a new AP unit. Might recover some cost by selling the refreshed friction plates I suppose..
Thanks to all for you input!!
I depressed the clutch pedal and jammed it down to allow me to examine the clearances. I reckon I’m seeing just over 1mm at the secondary friction plate and nowt at the primary one that mates to the engine flywheel.
If I carefully pry the driven plate beside the primary friction plate it moves reasonably well.
I think the start washers and pins are okay, but perhaps loosing me some movement, but possibly the overriding factor is that the leaf springs at the primary friction plate are not performing well.
Given that I’d rather be driving than spannering I think I’ll throw in the towel with this one and get a new AP unit. Might recover some cost by selling the refreshed friction plates I suppose..
Thanks to all for you input!!
The big iron disc separating the friction plates moves on 6 stainless slides one on each of the basket pedestals .. make sure they are free and not binding in any way, other than that it does look like the butterfly springs are too weak on the flywheel side .. but you say it was working fine before .. so what's going on I wonder?
The slides are new, and one of them was missed off when it first was rebuilt - that was corrected and I recall checking and it seemed a decent movement.
It was a bit crunchy going into reverse or first, but otherwise okay. I always put that down to either the box itself or clutch wear.
It was a bit crunchy going into reverse or first, but otherwise okay. I always put that down to either the box itself or clutch wear.
I know the operation looks poor on the videos but if it was ok before the refurb then it might have more clamping force now but if it dosnt drag and if the pedals ok now its worth running it and bedding it in. The problem with reverse is universal but if you grab 5th before going for reverse then the problem usually goes away.
The optimistic bit in me says give it a go, but my experience on the initial build and the drag I got from the secondary plate with it's 0.3mm clearance makes me think I'd be on a hiding to nothing.
I went to buy a clutch yesterday only to discover they'd sold out and were awaitng new stock.
On a more psoitive note I bled the brakes last night. A bit heat and cold spray had all the bleed nipples out without any drama. on checking the front pads noticed they are green - EBC Green stuff I assume. These don't seem to be well recieved in Cerbera circles, and I can't say I've ever thought the brakes were good. In my mind they seemed to lack bite, which may of course be that these need a bit of heat through them.
Probably add something more appropriate to my shopping list..
I went to buy a clutch yesterday only to discover they'd sold out and were awaitng new stock.
On a more psoitive note I bled the brakes last night. A bit heat and cold spray had all the bleed nipples out without any drama. on checking the front pads noticed they are green - EBC Green stuff I assume. These don't seem to be well recieved in Cerbera circles, and I can't say I've ever thought the brakes were good. In my mind they seemed to lack bite, which may of course be that these need a bit of heat through them.
Probably add something more appropriate to my shopping list..
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