Door Solenoid mechanical connection to Lock
Discussion
finally i could remove my (possibly) faulty solenoid....but i have no idea how the solenoid is connected to the lock:
checked the solenoid with my Ohm-Meter:endless resistance....which indicates that its damaged....but i wonder how an endless-resitance could have reverse-damaged the door ECU?
checked the solenoid with my Ohm-Meter:endless resistance....which indicates that its damaged....but i wonder how an endless-resitance could have reverse-damaged the door ECU?
Edited by LLantrisant on Monday 9th May 11:11
The original Cerbera door lock is based on one from a Vauxhall Carlton/Omega (left side PN 90503781 right side PN 90503782). TVR modified this by the addition of a short lever welded to the catch pawl shaft which is operated by the emergency door release pull. The two wire solenoid bears on one of the original levers to unlatch the door. The mechanical isolation system from the Carlton door lock button is retained but is not used; if it is accidentally operated then the electric door release will not function
The catch mechanism is mainly metal but the parts are all shielded and contained by a plastic box which tends to crack and disintegrate over time. The lock will eventually fall apart but even before that happens the broken bits can fall into the catch jamming it.
Carlton door locks are no longer available and all second hand ones I have found had badly cracked plastic. Other GM cars use similar but not identical locks, the most numerous are the early Astras (Astra F, rear door left side PN 90452389 right side PN 90452390) also look for Corsa B and Tigra A locks, all in the mid 90s period. Front and rear doors ones similar, new ones are available but rare. They are fairly common in breakers yards and relatively easy to remove, back door ones will usually be less worn.
For either type you will need to weld a short bracket to the latch pawl shaft as TVR did. In the case of the Astra type you will also need to arrange a push rod to act between the solenoid and the new lever and remove the childlock selector switch. On the Colin Chapman principle of “why is that washer getting a free ride on my race car” you may wish to remove all child lock and lock isolation gear. Unless you can find an ultra-rare none central locking type you will have to remove the central locking solenoid and its mounting bracket.
The additional lever needs to have an operating length of about 24mm. At the inner end it needs a 6mm diameter hole to fit over the pawl shaft then outboard 24mm from this a hole to take the pushrod. You can use the operating lever from the central locking part shortened to 55mm to provide this linkage. Another small hole will need to be drilled at a similar distance along the lever to take the emergency opening wire.
From https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Door catches .....Vauxhall Corsa B....non central-locking RHS GM part no. 90452378....LHS GM part no. 90452377.
The catch mechanism is mainly metal but the parts are all shielded and contained by a plastic box which tends to crack and disintegrate over time. The lock will eventually fall apart but even before that happens the broken bits can fall into the catch jamming it.
Carlton door locks are no longer available and all second hand ones I have found had badly cracked plastic. Other GM cars use similar but not identical locks, the most numerous are the early Astras (Astra F, rear door left side PN 90452389 right side PN 90452390) also look for Corsa B and Tigra A locks, all in the mid 90s period. Front and rear doors ones similar, new ones are available but rare. They are fairly common in breakers yards and relatively easy to remove, back door ones will usually be less worn.
For either type you will need to weld a short bracket to the latch pawl shaft as TVR did. In the case of the Astra type you will also need to arrange a push rod to act between the solenoid and the new lever and remove the childlock selector switch. On the Colin Chapman principle of “why is that washer getting a free ride on my race car” you may wish to remove all child lock and lock isolation gear. Unless you can find an ultra-rare none central locking type you will have to remove the central locking solenoid and its mounting bracket.
The additional lever needs to have an operating length of about 24mm. At the inner end it needs a 6mm diameter hole to fit over the pawl shaft then outboard 24mm from this a hole to take the pushrod. You can use the operating lever from the central locking part shortened to 55mm to provide this linkage. Another small hole will need to be drilled at a similar distance along the lever to take the emergency opening wire.
From https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&...
Door catches .....Vauxhall Corsa B....non central-locking RHS GM part no. 90452378....LHS GM part no. 90452377.
i´m lost.....please refer to my above pic showing the vauxhall lock with the welded L-shaped bracket where the emergency release cable is fitted to and the solenoid with a split-pin passing through the eylet.
but no lever nor rod. exsiting...i also passed a magnet through the body around the b-pillar but could not catch anything whic might have dropped down.
so how the solenoid, with its split-pin, was "connected" to the lock?
by the way: the lock is still ok.
but no lever nor rod. exsiting...i also passed a magnet through the body around the b-pillar but could not catch anything whic might have dropped down.
so how the solenoid, with its split-pin, was "connected" to the lock?
by the way: the lock is still ok.
Edited by LLantrisant on Wednesday 27th April 09:20
ukkid35 said:
Yup that's it, you've lined them up in that pic, the pin is there so that the force is presented to the lever, just as you've shown
Move the solenoid an inch closer, and down a touch, and the plunger will line up with the hole in the bracket, and the pin will stop it going further throughThe solenoid is wired to push, not to pull
new solenoid fitted....was easier than it was looking on first view.. a mate passed by, so 4 eyes and 4 hands were quite better than being alone.
now its clear how the slednoid operates: the split-pin is pushing onto the vaxuahall lock in the indicated area. there is no direct (mechanical) connection between those parts...its just by contact.
now its clear how the slednoid operates: the split-pin is pushing onto the vaxuahall lock in the indicated area. there is no direct (mechanical) connection between those parts...its just by contact.
Edited by LLantrisant on Monday 23 May 19:52
some further nfo: my garage informed me that the solenoid fitted and the ones i fitted as replacement are wrong!!
the original ones came from a Fiesta Boot Release and(only) these had an internal retrun-spring, pulling back the solenoid rod.
no idea if this is correct or not...but technically it would make sense.
the original ones came from a Fiesta Boot Release and(only) these had an internal retrun-spring, pulling back the solenoid rod.
no idea if this is correct or not...but technically it would make sense.
The Cerbera boot solenoid has a spring (inside the rubber boot) to ensure the plunger always returns to the fully extended position.
Upon activation, the servo pulls the plunger in (against the spring) to pull the latch lever and release the boot lock.
The door solenoids work in the opposite direction, upon activation the plunger extends and pushes upon the lock latch to release it (then the rubber boot pulls the plunger back into the rest position).
My door solenoids definitely do not have return springs in them but my boot solenoid does.
Upon activation, the servo pulls the plunger in (against the spring) to pull the latch lever and release the boot lock.
The door solenoids work in the opposite direction, upon activation the plunger extends and pushes upon the lock latch to release it (then the rubber boot pulls the plunger back into the rest position).
My door solenoids definitely do not have return springs in them but my boot solenoid does.
Imran999 said:
The Cerbera boot solenoid has a spring (inside the rubber boot) to ensure the plunger always returns to the fully extended position.
Upon activation, the servo pulls the plunger in (against the spring) to pull the latch lever and release the boot lock.
The door solenoids work in the opposite direction, upon activation the plunger extends and pushes upon the lock latch to release it (then the rubber boot pulls the plunger back into the rest position).
My door solenoids definitely do not have return springs in them but my boot solenoid does.
Interesting Info!!!Upon activation, the servo pulls the plunger in (against the spring) to pull the latch lever and release the boot lock.
The door solenoids work in the opposite direction, upon activation the plunger extends and pushes upon the lock latch to release it (then the rubber boot pulls the plunger back into the rest position).
My door solenoids definitely do not have return springs in them but my boot solenoid does.
i was told by my garage: it looks like the later cars (tuscan, tamora, sagaris) were equipped with the fiesta boot-release solenoids (with its internal return-spring) even in the doors.
why? the standard-solenoids, over time, will get some play inside their operating-mechanism (sort of internal gearbox)...the rubber boot may return the rod away from latch, but during next opening cylce, the solenoid, as it still near to be fully extended, will not overcome the play and the door wont be unnlocked.
as consequence you try to unlock the door multiple times, the solenoid gets stressed, the door-opening ECU gets stessed and due to the constant stress on those items, they may burn or break down.
why? the standard-solenoids, over time, will get some play inside their operating-mechanism (sort of internal gearbox)...the rubber boot may return the rod away from latch, but during next opening cylce, the solenoid, as it still near to be fully extended, will not overcome the play and the door wont be unnlocked.
as consequence you try to unlock the door multiple times, the solenoid gets stressed, the door-opening ECU gets stessed and due to the constant stress on those items, they may burn or break down.
Edited by LLantrisant on Thursday 7th July 08:10
Llantrisant, thanks for the additional info, the plot thickens.
I bought a few new original solenoids to keep as spares but when I replaced my passenger door solenoid, the new one didn’t work, I then tried a second new one and it worked fine. The difference between the two seemed to be that the good one would retract about 1mm more than the other (after firing).
Neither of the new ones came with springs, but I’m sure return springs would really help.
Although I got lots of (useless) spares with each of the new solenoids, I didn't get any collars that would be required for a spring to be able to retract the piston.
(the existing boot solenoid has such a collar)
I bought a few new original solenoids to keep as spares but when I replaced my passenger door solenoid, the new one didn’t work, I then tried a second new one and it worked fine. The difference between the two seemed to be that the good one would retract about 1mm more than the other (after firing).
Neither of the new ones came with springs, but I’m sure return springs would really help.
Although I got lots of (useless) spares with each of the new solenoids, I didn't get any collars that would be required for a spring to be able to retract the piston.
(the existing boot solenoid has such a collar)
Edited by Imran999 on Friday 8th July 02:01
car is now back from the garage.....and the door/window opening function is still NOT ok.....
passenger door:
once the mirror-button is pushed, the window opens, followed by the door solenoid getting signal, the door pops open, the interior light goes on. once the door is shut, the window is closing and the interior light goes off.
so far ...so good....for the passenger side.
now to the drivers side:
immediately when i push the mirror-button the door solednoid gets the signal, the door üopsopen, the window does NOT lower b4. the interior-light goes on.
once the doors gets shut the interior-light remains on, as the window was not lowered during door-opening,consecutively it doesnt go up.
if i lower the window manually after opening the doors, the window doesnt get closed when i shut the door. it sometimes closes when i lock the car by remote.
update from yesterday:
i opened the drivers door. than i manually lowered and closed the window multiple times.
suddenly i could here a kind of "klicking sound" in the upper position of the window.
the same sound as on the (working) passenger side.
i tried again with open/closing the door and ? the window is now lowering b4 the door pops-open.
ok...so far so lucky......but not long:
after several simulations to open/close the door the following happened:
once i pushed the mirror button, the window lowered, the door poped open BUT, during the door was moving open (half way), the window was closing again.
before somebody is pointng now towards the reed-contacts: i dont have reed contacts, my model came from the factory with the "oldschool" spring-loaded mechanical contacts, fitted inside the bottom of the door.
passenger door:
once the mirror-button is pushed, the window opens, followed by the door solenoid getting signal, the door pops open, the interior light goes on. once the door is shut, the window is closing and the interior light goes off.
so far ...so good....for the passenger side.
now to the drivers side:
immediately when i push the mirror-button the door solednoid gets the signal, the door üopsopen, the window does NOT lower b4. the interior-light goes on.
once the doors gets shut the interior-light remains on, as the window was not lowered during door-opening,consecutively it doesnt go up.
if i lower the window manually after opening the doors, the window doesnt get closed when i shut the door. it sometimes closes when i lock the car by remote.
update from yesterday:
i opened the drivers door. than i manually lowered and closed the window multiple times.
suddenly i could here a kind of "klicking sound" in the upper position of the window.
the same sound as on the (working) passenger side.
i tried again with open/closing the door and ? the window is now lowering b4 the door pops-open.
ok...so far so lucky......but not long:
after several simulations to open/close the door the following happened:
once i pushed the mirror button, the window lowered, the door poped open BUT, during the door was moving open (half way), the window was closing again.
before somebody is pointng now towards the reed-contacts: i dont have reed contacts, my model came from the factory with the "oldschool" spring-loaded mechanical contacts, fitted inside the bottom of the door.
Edited by LLantrisant on Saturday 30th July 08:37
LLantrisant said:
car is now back from the garage.....and the door/window opening function is still NOT ok.....
passenger door:
once the mirror-button is pushed, the window opens, followed by the door solenoid getting signal, the door pops open, the interior light goes on. once the door is shut, the window is closing and the interior light goes off.
so far ...so good....for the passenger side.
now to the drivers side:
immediately when i push the mirror-button the door solednoid gets the signal, the door üopsopen, the window does NOT lower b4. the interior-light goes on.
once the doors gets shut the interior-light remains on, as the window was not lowered during door-opening,consecutively it doesnt go up.
if i lower the window manually after opening the doors, the window doesnt get closed when i shut the door. it sometimes closes when i lock the car by remote.
update from yesterday:
i opened the drivers door. than i manually lowered and closed the window multiple times.
suddenly i could here a kind of "klicking sound" in the upper position of the window.
the same sound as on the (working) passenger side.
i tried again with open/closing the door and ? the window is now lowering b4 the door pops-open.
ok...so far so lucky......but not long:
after several simulations to open/close the door the following happened:
once i pushed the mirror button, the window lowered, the door poped open BUT, during the door was moving open (half way), the window was closing again.
before somebody is pointng now towards the reed-contacts: i dont have reed contacts, my model came from the factory with the "oldschool" spring-loaded mechanical contacts, fitted inside the bottom of the door.
Sounds like your old-school contacts need a clean. If the contact is poor, the car will think the door is closed when it's not.passenger door:
once the mirror-button is pushed, the window opens, followed by the door solenoid getting signal, the door pops open, the interior light goes on. once the door is shut, the window is closing and the interior light goes off.
so far ...so good....for the passenger side.
now to the drivers side:
immediately when i push the mirror-button the door solednoid gets the signal, the door üopsopen, the window does NOT lower b4. the interior-light goes on.
once the doors gets shut the interior-light remains on, as the window was not lowered during door-opening,consecutively it doesnt go up.
if i lower the window manually after opening the doors, the window doesnt get closed when i shut the door. it sometimes closes when i lock the car by remote.
update from yesterday:
i opened the drivers door. than i manually lowered and closed the window multiple times.
suddenly i could here a kind of "klicking sound" in the upper position of the window.
the same sound as on the (working) passenger side.
i tried again with open/closing the door and ? the window is now lowering b4 the door pops-open.
ok...so far so lucky......but not long:
after several simulations to open/close the door the following happened:
once i pushed the mirror button, the window lowered, the door poped open BUT, during the door was moving open (half way), the window was closing again.
before somebody is pointng now towards the reed-contacts: i dont have reed contacts, my model came from the factory with the "oldschool" spring-loaded mechanical contacts, fitted inside the bottom of the door.
Edited by LLantrisant on Saturday 30th July 08:37
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