MP4-12C photos and review/comparison
Discussion
MP4 said:
No it means they are buying at 25k more than they can from the manufacturer and selling 25k above bid price.
this car will imop be above list for a long time however much people delight in talking them down
Allow me to elaborate my statement in sufficient detail. My Ferrari main dealer called me. Said they're taking one in at list. Owner doesn't want the car.this car will imop be above list for a long time however much people delight in talking them down
They may sell it for 25k over list, they may not. From what I can see the VATq Tom Hartley car has not sold but the car on PH for £199k seems to have sold.
Logic would say that with the current problems its unlikely a buyer will pay substantially over list for one. No talking down required.
15HN said:
Allow me to elaborate my statement in sufficient detail. My Ferrari main dealer called me. Said they're taking one in at list. Owner doesn't want the car.
They may sell it for 25k over list, they may not. From what I can see the VATq Tom Hartley car has not sold but the car on PH for £199k seems to have sold.
Logic would say that with the current problems its unlikely a buyer will pay substantially over list for one. No talking down required.
LFBs car? They may sell it for 25k over list, they may not. From what I can see the VATq Tom Hartley car has not sold but the car on PH for £199k seems to have sold.
Logic would say that with the current problems its unlikely a buyer will pay substantially over list for one. No talking down required.
Can't see why the dealer won't be advertising over list, they're running a business after all.
I'm new to PH and for what it's worth I took delivery of my MP4-12C early September and it has not let me down at all.
I admit that the lack of Iris satellite navigation / bluetooth phone interface functionality is not ideal BUT I have absolute confidence that McLaren will deliver. To be honest I don't actually need the Sat-Nav functionality as I tend to know where I am going in the car, the lack of bluetooth is more inconvenient as I'm not willing to wear a headset or drive whilst holding the phone to my ear!
That aside the car is truly awesome, offering a unique combination of great build quality, everyday drive-ability and near ballistic performance...
Porsche are supposedly the de-facto standard when it comes to build quality and reliability - Well I can tell you that I've had 3 911 turbos from new, all have had issues, many of which never get fixed, instead they are re-defined as '911 features'. I decided to give up on Porsche after the experience of my last 997 turbo!
So far I have had far better service from my McLaren dealership and McLaren themselves than Porsche.
I admit that the lack of Iris satellite navigation / bluetooth phone interface functionality is not ideal BUT I have absolute confidence that McLaren will deliver. To be honest I don't actually need the Sat-Nav functionality as I tend to know where I am going in the car, the lack of bluetooth is more inconvenient as I'm not willing to wear a headset or drive whilst holding the phone to my ear!
That aside the car is truly awesome, offering a unique combination of great build quality, everyday drive-ability and near ballistic performance...
Porsche are supposedly the de-facto standard when it comes to build quality and reliability - Well I can tell you that I've had 3 911 turbos from new, all have had issues, many of which never get fixed, instead they are re-defined as '911 features'. I decided to give up on Porsche after the experience of my last 997 turbo!
So far I have had far better service from my McLaren dealership and McLaren themselves than Porsche.
Edited by McSquirrel on Monday 17th October 22:17
15HN said:
MP4 said:
No it means they are buying at 25k more than they can from the manufacturer and selling 25k above bid price.
this car will imop be above list for a long time however much people delight in talking them down
Allow me to elaborate my statement in sufficient detail. My Ferrari main dealer called me. Said they're taking one in at list. Owner doesn't want the car.this car will imop be above list for a long time however much people delight in talking them down
They may sell it for 25k over list, they may not. From what I can see the VATq Tom Hartley car has not sold but the car on PH for £199k seems to have sold.
Logic would say that with the current problems its unlikely a buyer will pay substantially over list for one. No talking down required.
Autocar are reporting that the F1 successor has started testing:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/...
Aiming for a 0-200mph time quicker than a Veyron SS.
I believe they're also working on upgrading to Windows Vista.
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/...
Aiming for a 0-200mph time quicker than a Veyron SS.
I believe they're also working on upgrading to Windows Vista.
LongLiveTazio said:
Autocar are reporting that the F1 successor has started testing:
http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/...
Aiming for a 0-200mph time quicker than a Veyron SS.
I believe they're also working on upgrading to Windows Vista.
They could do worse and go for the Windows 8 "Metro man" look instead. I just hope the computer that gets the car to 200+ and back safely doesn't run on Windows.http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/...
Aiming for a 0-200mph time quicker than a Veyron SS.
I believe they're also working on upgrading to Windows Vista.
If I was Ron I'd go OCD and tell the engineers "You're not starting the F1 Mk II until you've fixed all the issues with the 12C."
Fair cop Guv.
15HN said:
The difference is that the 458 hasn't been out all of 3 weeks, 2 days and 7 mins. First deliveries started the best part of 18 months ago.
I don't really care for either car but these are the facts.
If you're implying that the offered prices reflect the markets view of quality (perceived) - you may well be right. All the same, I'd like to say that the 458 isn't/wasn't exactly a quality product either - (Like anything made in Italy - made like crap).I don't really care for either car but these are the facts.
They made up a load of BS about glue/adhesive on the wheelarchs catching fire when it was fuel lines...
Back to price - perhaps more to the point, the 458's residuals are about to get whacked when the Spiders start landing.
I feel sympathy for McLaren's customers but I have every belief they'll get their issues sorted and like the F1 they made in the 90's, they'll build a world beating quality product. After years of worshipping Ferrari, I don't believe Ferrari will - in fact they can't - they're Italian - Italian methods of production and quality control in all elements of their industrial output are too much of a joke.... an exercise in style over substance.
Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Tuesday 18th October 14:53
Murcielago_Boy said:
If you're implying that the offered prices reflect the markets view of quality (perceived) - you may well be right. All the same, I'd like to say that the 458 isn't/wasn't exactly a quality product either - (Like anything made in Italy - made like crap).
They made up a load of BS about glue/adhesive on the wheelarchs catching fire when it was fuel lines...
Back to price - perhaps more to the point, the 458's residuals are about to get whacked when the Spiders start landing.
I feel sympathy for McLaren's customers but I have every belief they'll get their issues sorted and like the F1 they made in the 90's, they'll build a world beating quality product. After years of worshipping Ferrari, I don't believe Ferrari will - in fact they can't - they're Italian - Italian methods of production and quality control in all elements of their industrial output are too much of a joke.... an exercise in style over substance.
because england has a better reputation in quality?? that is maybe why the english industry has either disappeared or been bought by forein groups.They made up a load of BS about glue/adhesive on the wheelarchs catching fire when it was fuel lines...
Back to price - perhaps more to the point, the 458's residuals are about to get whacked when the Spiders start landing.
I feel sympathy for McLaren's customers but I have every belief they'll get their issues sorted and like the F1 they made in the 90's, they'll build a world beating quality product. After years of worshipping Ferrari, I don't believe Ferrari will - in fact they can't - they're Italian - Italian methods of production and quality control in all elements of their industrial output are too much of a joke.... an exercise in style over substance.
Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Tuesday 18th October 14:53
by the way, italians (along with the french) are by far the leaders in luxury industry, from fashion to yachts, from premium furniture to traditional craftsmanship.
and the gearbox of the mclaren is italian (graziano).
snaelro said:
by the way, italians (along with the french) are by far the leaders in luxury industry, from fashion to yachts, from premium furniture to traditional craftsmanship.
and the gearbox of the mclaren is italian (graziano).
I fully appreciate what you've said. It's accurate - but that says nothing about QUALITY - Italian leadership is not based on perfect production.and the gearbox of the mclaren is italian (graziano).
On that point, I stick to my guns. The Italian "luxury goods" premium position is supported by branding and perception, not quality manufacture, not quality sales, and not quality after-sales support. Sticking to cars for a moment, I could bore you to tears with stories of Enzo's where the engine covers didn't fit, desperate paint jobs on 599 (different colours!), fake power outputs on almost any Ferrari, dodgy electronics and body panels on Lamborghinis falling off and Zonda where there were no wet weather tyres EVER.
It's CRAP.
You see, Ferrari' etc are no longer highly-strung, fragile, track-refugees made in very small quantities - they're quick and occasionally beautiful cars made in 'commercial" quantities now. That's it. They've been around making road cars since the 1950's and the cars are still finished and built like crap. On the other hand, McLaren are having issues with their first ever real *production* road car (exclude the F1 which even 20 years on leads the world in demonstrating a real quality product). Problems are to be expected. But for Ferrari, Lamborghini et al though there are no excuses - 6 months for a spare to arrive from Italy - come off it.
McLaren will sort it though. But Italian manufacturing complacency and arrogance means they will not - not until they get their ass handed to them by a rival (which Mclaren failed to do on *this* occasion). All in my humble opinion.
Terrible to write this but it's my honest assessment - and no-one has loved Ferrari and Lamborghini etc more than me!
Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Tuesday 18th October 17:47
Murcielago_Boy said:
snaelro said:
by the way, italians (along with the french) are by far the leaders in luxury industry, from fashion to yachts, from premium furniture to traditional craftsmanship.
and the gearbox of the mclaren is italian (graziano).
I fully appreciate what you've said. It's accurate - but that says nothing about QUALITY - Italian leadership is not based on perfect production.and the gearbox of the mclaren is italian (graziano).
On that point, I stick to my guns. The Italian "luxury goods" premium position is supported by branding and perception, not quality manufacture, not quality sales, and not quality after-sales support. Sticking to cars for a moment, I could bore you to tears with stories of Enzo's where the engine covers didn't fit, desperate paint jobs on 599 (different colours!), fake power outputs on almost any Ferrari, dodgy electronics and body panels on Lamborghinis falling off and Zonda where there were no wet weather tyres EVER.
It's CRAP.
You see, Ferrari' etc are no longer highly-strung, fragile, track-refugees made in very small quantities - they're quick and occasionally beautiful cars made in 'commercial" quantities now. That's it. They've been around making road cars since the 1950's and the cars are still finished and built like crap. On the other hand, McLaren are having issues with their first ever real *production* road car (exclude the F1 which even 20 years on leads the world in demonstrating a real quality product). Problems are to be expected. But for Ferrari, Lamborghini et al though there are no excuses - 6 months for a spare to arrive from Italy - come off it.
McLaren will sort it though. But Italian manufacturing complacency and arrogance means they will not - not until they get their ass handed to them by a rival (which Mclaren failed to do on *this* occasion). All in my humble opinion.
Terrible to write this but it's my honest assessment - and no-one has loved Ferrari and Lamborghini etc more than me!
Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Tuesday 18th October 17:47
I have been lucky enough to spend time around and under a number of Ferrari's and Lambo's over the years and have been constantly disappointed with the build quality. Chicken s
t welding, orange peel paint and over spray all over the place. It was very interesting recently to compare side by side the engine compartments of an Enzo and a Porsche Carrera GT. The difference in the quality of finish was obvious to even a non car person. As for the way the interior of the Enzo was glued together was frankly shocking on a car that now sells for in excess of £700k.
Sad but true
Murcielago_Boy said:
I fully appreciate what you've said. It's accurate - but that says nothing about QUALITY - Italian leadership is not based on perfect production.
On that point, I stick to my guns. The Italian "luxury goods" premium position is supported by branding and perception, not quality manufacture, not quality sales, and not quality after-sales support. Sticking to cars for a moment, I could bore you to tears with stories of Enzo's where the engine covers didn't fit, desperate paint jobs on 599 (different colours!), fake power outputs on almost any Ferrari, dodgy electronics and body panels on Lamborghinis falling off and Zonda where there were no wet weather tyres EVER.
It's CRAP.
You see, Ferrari' etc are no longer highly-strung, fragile, track-refugees made in very small quantities - they're quick and occasionally beautiful cars made in 'commercial" quantities now. That's it. They've been around making road cars since the 1950's and the cars are still finished and built like crap. On the other hand, McLaren are having issues with their first ever real *production* road car (exclude the F1 which even 20 years on leads the world in demonstrating a real quality product). Problems are to be expected. But for Ferrari, Lamborghini et al though there are no excuses - 6 months for a spare to arrive from Italy - come off it.
McLaren will sort it though. But Italian manufacturing complacency and arrogance means they will not - not until they get their ass handed to them by a rival (which Mclaren failed to do on *this* occasion). All in my humble opinion.
Terrible to write this but it's my honest assessment - and no-one has loved Ferrari and Lamborghini etc more than me!
6 months to get a GPS in 2011 from a company that claims "redefining the sports car and pursuing perfection" (if that is not arrogance)...come off itOn that point, I stick to my guns. The Italian "luxury goods" premium position is supported by branding and perception, not quality manufacture, not quality sales, and not quality after-sales support. Sticking to cars for a moment, I could bore you to tears with stories of Enzo's where the engine covers didn't fit, desperate paint jobs on 599 (different colours!), fake power outputs on almost any Ferrari, dodgy electronics and body panels on Lamborghinis falling off and Zonda where there were no wet weather tyres EVER.
It's CRAP.
You see, Ferrari' etc are no longer highly-strung, fragile, track-refugees made in very small quantities - they're quick and occasionally beautiful cars made in 'commercial" quantities now. That's it. They've been around making road cars since the 1950's and the cars are still finished and built like crap. On the other hand, McLaren are having issues with their first ever real *production* road car (exclude the F1 which even 20 years on leads the world in demonstrating a real quality product). Problems are to be expected. But for Ferrari, Lamborghini et al though there are no excuses - 6 months for a spare to arrive from Italy - come off it.
McLaren will sort it though. But Italian manufacturing complacency and arrogance means they will not - not until they get their ass handed to them by a rival (which Mclaren failed to do on *this* occasion). All in my humble opinion.
Terrible to write this but it's my honest assessment - and no-one has loved Ferrari and Lamborghini etc more than me!
Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Tuesday 18th October 17:47
I was mainly reacting to the quite scornful (not sure about this word) comment on the fact that italians=rubbish.
quite a cliché, and actually, if you go down this route, there are also millions of stories about british vehicles laughable built qualities. so far in europe, "made in italy" is synonymous of quality, while made in england means either "old fashion charms" or "source of problems" (or disgusting if it is about food).
coming back to the topic, we have had a lot of stories for a mclaren MP4 that has not even been widely delivered. not to mention the fact that it is quite shocking to deliver cars not finished. but it is not a lack of "know how" from mclaren, it just shows that building cars is, and will always be a complex business. just look at mercedes, their reliability was terrible few years ago, even after 100years of being in the industry.
so lets wait that mclaren gets 1000/2000 cars on the road (one day...) and we will comment on the customer care and overall built quality before jumping to conclusions
Edited by snaelro on Tuesday 18th October 19:11
snaelro said:
Murcielago_Boy said:
I fully appreciate what you've said. It's accurate - but that says nothing about QUALITY - Italian leadership is not based on perfect production.
On that point, I stick to my guns. The Italian "luxury goods" premium position is supported by branding and perception, not quality manufacture, not quality sales, and not quality after-sales support. Sticking to cars for a moment, I could bore you to tears with stories of Enzo's where the engine covers didn't fit, desperate paint jobs on 599 (different colours!), fake power outputs on almost any Ferrari, dodgy electronics and body panels on Lamborghinis falling off and Zonda where there were no wet weather tyres EVER.
It's CRAP.
You see, Ferrari' etc are no longer highly-strung, fragile, track-refugees made in very small quantities - they're quick and occasionally beautiful cars made in 'commercial" quantities now. That's it. They've been around making road cars since the 1950's and the cars are still finished and built like crap. On the other hand, McLaren are having issues with their first ever real *production* road car (exclude the F1 which even 20 years on leads the world in demonstrating a real quality product). Problems are to be expected. But for Ferrari, Lamborghini et al though there are no excuses - 6 months for a spare to arrive from Italy - come off it.
McLaren will sort it though. But Italian manufacturing complacency and arrogance means they will not - not until they get their ass handed to them by a rival (which Mclaren failed to do on *this* occasion). All in my humble opinion.
Terrible to write this but it's my honest assessment - and no-one has loved Ferrari and Lamborghini etc more than me!
6 months to get a GPS in 2011 from a company that claims "redefining the sports car and pursuing perfection" (if that is not arrogance)...come off itOn that point, I stick to my guns. The Italian "luxury goods" premium position is supported by branding and perception, not quality manufacture, not quality sales, and not quality after-sales support. Sticking to cars for a moment, I could bore you to tears with stories of Enzo's where the engine covers didn't fit, desperate paint jobs on 599 (different colours!), fake power outputs on almost any Ferrari, dodgy electronics and body panels on Lamborghinis falling off and Zonda where there were no wet weather tyres EVER.
It's CRAP.
You see, Ferrari' etc are no longer highly-strung, fragile, track-refugees made in very small quantities - they're quick and occasionally beautiful cars made in 'commercial" quantities now. That's it. They've been around making road cars since the 1950's and the cars are still finished and built like crap. On the other hand, McLaren are having issues with their first ever real *production* road car (exclude the F1 which even 20 years on leads the world in demonstrating a real quality product). Problems are to be expected. But for Ferrari, Lamborghini et al though there are no excuses - 6 months for a spare to arrive from Italy - come off it.
McLaren will sort it though. But Italian manufacturing complacency and arrogance means they will not - not until they get their ass handed to them by a rival (which Mclaren failed to do on *this* occasion). All in my humble opinion.
Terrible to write this but it's my honest assessment - and no-one has loved Ferrari and Lamborghini etc more than me!
Edited by Murcielago_Boy on Tuesday 18th October 17:47
I was mainly reacting to the quite scornful (not sure about this word) comment on the fact that italians=rubbish.
quite a cliché, and actually, if you go down this route, there are also millions of stories about british vehicles laughable built qualities. so far in europe, "made in italy" is synonymous of quality, while made in england means either "old fashion charms" or "source of problems" (or disgusting if it is about food).
coming back to the topic, we have had a lot of stories for a mclaren MP4 that has not even been widely delivered. not to mention the fact that it is quite shocking to deliver cars not finished. but it is not a lack of "know how" from mclaren, it just shows that building cars is, and will always be a complex business. just look at mercedes, their reliability was terrible few years ago, even after 100years of being in the industry.
so lets wait that mclaren gets 1000/2000 cars on the road (one day...) and we will comment on the customer care and overall built quality before jumping to conclusions
plus,a new supecar maker on the block,might force the quality up for everyone ,so everyone wins.Of course thats if Italy dosent go bust in the meantime
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