Harry talks about detail....
Discussion
Tom73 said:
It's good feature but I can't help but to find it quite disturbing that EVO/Harry continues their shameless tabloid hit-jobs for Pagani in Horacio's crazy PR-war against Koenigsegg. First it was the Nurburgring debacle where the Egg was forced to run on street tyres and settings because they didn't deem their factory settings for the track stock unlike Pagani's settings (nevermind the driver being a Pagani test driver and the owner a personal friend of Horacio, much like Harry), and now there's this obvious underhanded "response" to DRIVE's feature on Koenigsegg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp_qxKWMsVw
Personally I would love to see Pagani undergo SportAuto tests again instead of this forth and forth stuff they've resorted to, but I'm assuming this will never happen since Horacio deemed Horst bias when they got thoroughly beaten by Koenigsegg and Porsche. Much better then to conduct your own "testing" and "features" so any unpleasant surprises and "biases" can be kept to a minimum.
Ok I'm going to bite. As the resident Pagani fan boy here could you please explain this "crazy PR war against Koenigsegg" to me please and also point out the underhanded response to the Drive feature. Because almost every response to that video appears to be positive.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp_qxKWMsVw
Personally I would love to see Pagani undergo SportAuto tests again instead of this forth and forth stuff they've resorted to, but I'm assuming this will never happen since Horacio deemed Horst bias when they got thoroughly beaten by Koenigsegg and Porsche. Much better then to conduct your own "testing" and "features" so any unpleasant surprises and "biases" can be kept to a minimum.
By the way I thought the Drive video was brilliant and actually called for such a video on here from Koneigsegg weeks before it appeared as I though Koenigsegg needed to up their PR game. You can read that thread here http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by Streetrod on Saturday 30th June 20:55
wouldn't want to deny you guys of buying one, removed my order 
Streetrod said:
Tom73 said:
It's good feature but I can't help but to find it quite disturbing that EVO/Harry continues their shameless tabloid hit-jobs for Pagani in Horacio's crazy PR-war against Koenigsegg. First it was the Nurburgring debacle where the Egg was forced to run on street tyres and settings because they didn't deem their factory settings for the track stock unlike Pagani's settings (nevermind the driver being a Pagani test driver and the owner a personal friend of Horacio, much like Harry), and now there's this obvious underhanded "response" to DRIVE's feature on Koenigsegg.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp_qxKWMsVw
Personally I would love to see Pagani undergo SportAuto tests again instead of this forth and forth stuff they've resorted to, but I'm assuming this will never happen since Horacio deemed Horst bias when they got thoroughly beaten by Koenigsegg and Porsche. Much better then to conduct your own "testing" and "features" so any unpleasant surprises and "biases" can be kept to a minimum.
Ok I'm going to bite. As the resident Pagani fan boy here could you please explain this "crazy PR war against Koenigsegg" to me please and also point out the underhanded response to the Drive feature. Because almost every response to that video appears to be positive.http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qp_qxKWMsVw
Personally I would love to see Pagani undergo SportAuto tests again instead of this forth and forth stuff they've resorted to, but I'm assuming this will never happen since Horacio deemed Horst bias when they got thoroughly beaten by Koenigsegg and Porsche. Much better then to conduct your own "testing" and "features" so any unpleasant surprises and "biases" can be kept to a minimum.
By the way I thought the Drive video was brilliant and actually called for such a video on here from Koneigsegg weeks before it appeared as I though Koenigsegg needed to up their PR game. You can read that thread here http://www.pistonheads.com/xforums/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Edited by Streetrod on Saturday 30th June 20:55
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
And isn't it obvious? DRIVE produces a terrific piece on Koenigsegg. Subsequently, "heeeere's 'Arry" and a bunch of contrarian details. Koenigsegg goes into great lenght about the door hinge and 'Arry and 'Oracio counters with their bonnet hinge. Koenigsegg shows their gearbox and notes it's the "first single input shaft dual clutch gearbox" and here's 'Arry pointing out Pagani's "unique transversal gearbox" (which is dross since there's a lot of transversal gearboxes out there and most dual clutch gearboxes are transversal. The information filtered down to 'Arry's empty head probably was meant to be "a unique transversal dual disc gearbox") Koenigsegg shows the lithium iron battery and here's 'Arry with a carbon fiber dressed lithium iron battery. Koenigsegg talks about their paint shop and the gloss and here's 'Arry pointing out that Pagani adds gloss to some pieces that aren't even seen. Koenigsegg shows their Triplex suspension and here's 'Arry showing off Pagani's suspension. Koenigsegg shows the tank being placed inside the monocoque and explains how they think it's the safest and best position in the car and here's 'Arry letting us know that not only is Pagani's tank placed behind the bulkhead which of course is "the safest possible place" and oh by the way lets explain how obsessed 'Oracio is with safety and burn the fuel pipe like we're doing a infomercial... End the segment by making very sure to make it blatantly clear that this particular car is well worth the going rate. Heck, why not call out the price and let them know the first caller gets a 20% discount?
What makes it even worse is so little of it makes sense. Like why opt for the shiny exhaust finish when a ceramic coating will drastically reduce underbonnet temperature? Why dress the lithium iron battery in carbon fiber and branding instead of a proper heat shield coupled with some battery save tech? Why substitute a proper front splitter and a protruding diffuser (with INSTRUMENTAL fins) to clean and accelerate flow, for a bunch of flaps that wont work as advertised for too many reasons to mention in this post? Why opt for a carbotanium weave instead of a proper structure of aluminium honeycomb, kevlar, divinycell and carbon fiber? In Formula 1 the big teams have budgets of approx €200M and all of them use a honeycomb laminate crash structure – why is that? Who knows? Certainly not 'Arry.
Not even the design looks very Pagani to me. First time I saw it I immediately thought to myself "is that a Zagato design?" because it carries so many cues of their designs including the interior work they did for Spyker. The Huayra looks like the successor to the Spyker C12 Zagato.
It's like they've knowingly developed a car specifically for dunces like 'Arry who likes his cars shiny and gimmicky rather than functional. With all the "attention to detail" in the Huayra they somehow forgot the fundamentals and substituted it with window dressing.
I checked your link and I partially agree with what you're saying. They do need to step up and expose their cars more... in the UK (mind you that DRIVE's Koenigsegg feature has as many views as the McLaren and Pagani feature combined). But a part of me would also hate for Koenigsegg to follow in Pagani's footsteps. I don't think Pagani is running a very sympathetic business model and for Koenigsegg to sell out would kill the draw of the brand for me. If people are interested they should give Christian a call, drive the car and make their minds up without the help of a horde of kids on the internet telling them what to think and feel. As long as you can get a devoted Paganista like JF into the seat of your car and leave him with a million dollar smile the product will speak for itself. And if it doesn't, then what you are looking for is not a Koenigsegg but a battery dressed in carbon with a Pagani sticker on it. Comb some dye into your greying comb over, unbutton your shirt and flaunt that gorgeous chest hair and for god's sake, never ever even consider buying a Egg. There's probably a sticker on the car directly warning people like you from driving it.
Now obviously the niche of billionaire gents without a comb over is considerably smaller than the niche with, but as Christian explains it in the clip below profit is simply the tool that drives the passion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqxZaE0GAyY
I hope he keeps it this way.
Tom73 said:
"PR war" is actually a phrase first coined by you.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
And isn't it obvious? DRIVE produces a terrific piece on Koenigsegg. Subsequently, "heeeere's 'Arry" and a bunch of contrarian details. Koenigsegg goes into great lenght about the door hinge and 'Arry and 'Oracio counters with their bonnet hinge. Koenigsegg shows their gearbox and notes it's the "first single input shaft dual clutch gearbox" and here's 'Arry pointing out Pagani's "unique transversal gearbox" (which is dross since there's a lot of transversal gearboxes out there and most dual clutch gearboxes are transversal. The information filtered down to 'Arry's empty head probably was meant to be "a unique transversal dual disc gearbox") Koenigsegg shows the lithium iron battery and here's 'Arry with a carbon fiber dressed lithium iron battery. Koenigsegg talks about their paint shop and the gloss and here's 'Arry pointing out that Pagani adds gloss to some pieces that aren't even seen. Koenigsegg shows their Triplex suspension and here's 'Arry showing off Pagani's suspension. Koenigsegg shows the tank being placed inside the monocoque and explains how they think it's the safest and best position in the car and here's 'Arry letting us know that not only is Pagani's tank placed behind the bulkhead which of course is "the safest possible place" and oh by the way lets explain how obsessed 'Oracio is with safety and burn the fuel pipe like we're doing a infomercial... End the segment by making very sure to make it blatantly clear that this particular car is well worth the going rate. Heck, why not call out the price and let them know the first caller gets a 20% discount?
What makes it even worse is so little of it makes sense. Like why opt for the shiny exhaust finish when a ceramic coating will drastically reduce underbonnet temperature? Why dress the lithium iron battery in carbon fiber and branding instead of a proper heat shield coupled with some battery save tech? Why substitute a proper front splitter and a protruding diffuser (with INSTRUMENTAL fins) to clean and accelerate flow, for a bunch of flaps that wont work as advertised for too many reasons to mention in this post? Why opt for a carbotanium weave instead of a proper structure of aluminium honeycomb, kevlar, divinycell and carbon fiber? In Formula 1 the big teams have budgets of approx €200M and all of them use a honeycomb laminate crash structure – why is that? Who knows? Certainly not 'Arry.
Not even the design looks very Pagani to me. First time I saw it I immediately thought to myself "is that a Zagato design?" because it carries so many cues of their designs including the interior work they did for Spyker. The Huayra looks like the successor to the Spyker C12 Zagato.
It's like they've knowingly developed a car specifically for dunces like 'Arry who likes his cars shiny and gimmicky rather than functional. With all the "attention to detail" in the Huayra they somehow forgot the fundamentals and substituted it with window dressing.
I checked your link and I partially agree with what you're saying. They do need to step up and expose their cars more... in the UK (mind you that DRIVE's Koenigsegg feature has as many views as the McLaren and Pagani feature combined). But a part of me would also hate for Koenigsegg to follow in Pagani's footsteps. I don't think Pagani is running a very sympathetic business model and for Koenigsegg to sell out would kill the draw of the brand for me. If people are interested they should give Christian a call, drive the car and make their minds up without the help of a horde of kids on the internet telling them what to think and feel. As long as you can get a devoted Paganista like JF into the seat of your car and leave him with a million dollar smile the product will speak for itself. And if it doesn't, then what you are looking for is not a Koenigsegg but a battery dressed in carbon with a Pagani sticker on it. Comb some dye into your greying comb over, unbutton your shirt and flaunt that gorgeous chest hair and for god's sake, never ever even consider buying a Egg. There's probably a sticker on the car directly warning people like you from driving it.
Now obviously the niche of billionaire gents without a comb over is considerably smaller than the niche with, but as Christian explains it in the clip below profit is simply the tool that drives the passion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqxZaE0GAyY
I hope he keeps it this way.
Tom, I agree with a lot of the content of your post but I'm not sure why you think it's so wrong. It certainly is a PR war and this recent video is clearly a publicity exercise sanctioned by Pagani in the wake of the best Koenigsegg video ever produced. I hadn't notice all of the detail that you pointed out but now you have, it is almost funny how they have picked up on all the best points in the DRIVE video and attempted to highlight the exact same component on the Huayra. Is this wrong or unfair? I don't think so. Its what good marketing people do. If one of my competitors featured in a video that was as strong as the DRIVE video which highlighted some advanced tech that that company was using and giving the viewer the message that it was either unique or superior in some way to other similar products (mine), I would have sat down with my marketing team and done exactly what Pagani have done. Everyone knows that third party endorsements, no matter how heavily influenced are worth a hundred times more than you telling everyone you're great. Pagani have looked at the arsenal available to them and have very cleverly, in my opinion, got Harry Metcalfe do this piece. Now whatever you think of Harry, and it's clear you're not a fan, he is the owner and ex editor of the most influential motoring magazine in the UK and his opinion matters a great deal to a lot of people. it's further highlighted by the fact that he not only loves Pagani, he loves them so much he bought one. if I sold cars and Harry Metcalfe owned one of them that he bought with his own money, Id'd get him to at least as much PR for me as pagani do, if not more. You'd' frankly be mad not to do so. Wouldn't you?http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
And isn't it obvious? DRIVE produces a terrific piece on Koenigsegg. Subsequently, "heeeere's 'Arry" and a bunch of contrarian details. Koenigsegg goes into great lenght about the door hinge and 'Arry and 'Oracio counters with their bonnet hinge. Koenigsegg shows their gearbox and notes it's the "first single input shaft dual clutch gearbox" and here's 'Arry pointing out Pagani's "unique transversal gearbox" (which is dross since there's a lot of transversal gearboxes out there and most dual clutch gearboxes are transversal. The information filtered down to 'Arry's empty head probably was meant to be "a unique transversal dual disc gearbox") Koenigsegg shows the lithium iron battery and here's 'Arry with a carbon fiber dressed lithium iron battery. Koenigsegg talks about their paint shop and the gloss and here's 'Arry pointing out that Pagani adds gloss to some pieces that aren't even seen. Koenigsegg shows their Triplex suspension and here's 'Arry showing off Pagani's suspension. Koenigsegg shows the tank being placed inside the monocoque and explains how they think it's the safest and best position in the car and here's 'Arry letting us know that not only is Pagani's tank placed behind the bulkhead which of course is "the safest possible place" and oh by the way lets explain how obsessed 'Oracio is with safety and burn the fuel pipe like we're doing a infomercial... End the segment by making very sure to make it blatantly clear that this particular car is well worth the going rate. Heck, why not call out the price and let them know the first caller gets a 20% discount?
What makes it even worse is so little of it makes sense. Like why opt for the shiny exhaust finish when a ceramic coating will drastically reduce underbonnet temperature? Why dress the lithium iron battery in carbon fiber and branding instead of a proper heat shield coupled with some battery save tech? Why substitute a proper front splitter and a protruding diffuser (with INSTRUMENTAL fins) to clean and accelerate flow, for a bunch of flaps that wont work as advertised for too many reasons to mention in this post? Why opt for a carbotanium weave instead of a proper structure of aluminium honeycomb, kevlar, divinycell and carbon fiber? In Formula 1 the big teams have budgets of approx €200M and all of them use a honeycomb laminate crash structure – why is that? Who knows? Certainly not 'Arry.
Not even the design looks very Pagani to me. First time I saw it I immediately thought to myself "is that a Zagato design?" because it carries so many cues of their designs including the interior work they did for Spyker. The Huayra looks like the successor to the Spyker C12 Zagato.
It's like they've knowingly developed a car specifically for dunces like 'Arry who likes his cars shiny and gimmicky rather than functional. With all the "attention to detail" in the Huayra they somehow forgot the fundamentals and substituted it with window dressing.
I checked your link and I partially agree with what you're saying. They do need to step up and expose their cars more... in the UK (mind you that DRIVE's Koenigsegg feature has as many views as the McLaren and Pagani feature combined). But a part of me would also hate for Koenigsegg to follow in Pagani's footsteps. I don't think Pagani is running a very sympathetic business model and for Koenigsegg to sell out would kill the draw of the brand for me. If people are interested they should give Christian a call, drive the car and make their minds up without the help of a horde of kids on the internet telling them what to think and feel. As long as you can get a devoted Paganista like JF into the seat of your car and leave him with a million dollar smile the product will speak for itself. And if it doesn't, then what you are looking for is not a Koenigsegg but a battery dressed in carbon with a Pagani sticker on it. Comb some dye into your greying comb over, unbutton your shirt and flaunt that gorgeous chest hair and for god's sake, never ever even consider buying a Egg. There's probably a sticker on the car directly warning people like you from driving it.
Now obviously the niche of billionaire gents without a comb over is considerably smaller than the niche with, but as Christian explains it in the clip below profit is simply the tool that drives the passion.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qqxZaE0GAyY
I hope he keeps it this way.
On the subject of marketing and brand exposure, I have my own theories which have been debated here at length on other threads. Whilst it's a nice idea to be 'too cool for advertising' its's a very risky strategy and it rarely pays outside of old money, establishment circles and I've never seen it work in this arena. You're clearly a big Koenigsegg fan and Streetrod is clearly a big Pagani fan. I think they're both great and have test driven both and considered purchasing both at different times. I've been fortunate enough to spend time with Horacio on a number of occasions and driven some of the cars. I have driven a CCR a long time ago but never met Christian or been to the factory. I was going to purchase a CCX but one was not available in the UK so I was asked If I wanted to go to the factory and of course I accepted. After being promised a number of times by the UK dealer to arrange a trip to Sweden, none materialised and at the same time no one, apart from the salesman ever had a good word to say about them and they were depreciating like a stone. Pagani were very keen to get me out to the factory and I went with ease.
I suspect, Streetrod would, despite his Pagani obsession love to go to Sweden to see how Christian does things but for whatever reason he feels out of reach to most people. I don't believe that the motoring press have got it in for Koenigsegg but they are a harder brand to love than Pagani (not Italian, bad press on forums, turbocharged engines, reliability questions etc) and subsequently need to work harder to get the following that Pagani have. Now taking your comment about comb overs and the like with a pinch of salt, the reality is, the customer base for £1m cars is small and most people are buying Paganis or Bugatti way ahead of Koenigseggs and that means either, they aren't aware of the car, it's not represented properly or the cars cars aren't very good. There is a simple fix for two of those before people even decide about the third. You may well know who they are and what they stand for but most people don't.
This topic seems to come up a lot. Why don't we (attempt to) organise a PH trip to the factory and then we can all give out our own opinions about what we see out there. What do you reckon?
I personally find Harry a bit frustrating. EVO can come across as terribly smug sometimes and I wonder if it doesnt come down from the top.
The business with EVO and Lord Harry Metcalfe and McLaren F1 was pretty cringe-worthy, with EVO announcing to the world how they had a quiet word with the boys in Woking and put them right on a few things and now the car is much better now ! It was a low point in the magazine for sure.
And as for the Pagani, well Harry clearly has a love-in going on with the factory. And this is probably at the expense of other manufacturers. I certainly would'nt call it independent journalism, but then does this really matter?
EVO is a partisan, certainly not impartial or independent magazine. They have their preferences and agendas.
I am happy that Chris Harris is no longer there.
The business with EVO and Lord Harry Metcalfe and McLaren F1 was pretty cringe-worthy, with EVO announcing to the world how they had a quiet word with the boys in Woking and put them right on a few things and now the car is much better now ! It was a low point in the magazine for sure.
And as for the Pagani, well Harry clearly has a love-in going on with the factory. And this is probably at the expense of other manufacturers. I certainly would'nt call it independent journalism, but then does this really matter?
EVO is a partisan, certainly not impartial or independent magazine. They have their preferences and agendas.
I am happy that Chris Harris is no longer there.
toppstuff said:
The business with EVO and Lord Harry Metcalfe and McLaren F1 was pretty cringe-worthy, with EVO announcing to the world how they had a quiet word with the boys in Woking and put them right on a few things and now the car is much better now ! It was a low point in the magazine for sure.
And as for the Pagani, well Harry clearly has a love-in going on with the factory. And this is probably at the expense of other manufacturers. I certainly would'nt call it independent journalism, but then does this really matter?
12C wasn't it?? As for Harry and his Pagani coverage, let's thank the gods he isn't a 911 man And as for the Pagani, well Harry clearly has a love-in going on with the factory. And this is probably at the expense of other manufacturers. I certainly would'nt call it independent journalism, but then does this really matter?
Justices said:
toppstuff said:
The business with EVO and Lord Harry Metcalfe and McLaren F1 was pretty cringe-worthy, with EVO announcing to the world how they had a quiet word with the boys in Woking and put them right on a few things and now the car is much better now ! It was a low point in the magazine for sure.
And as for the Pagani, well Harry clearly has a love-in going on with the factory. And this is probably at the expense of other manufacturers. I certainly would'nt call it independent journalism, but then does this really matter?
12C wasn't it?? As for Harry and his Pagani coverage, let's thank the gods he isn't a 911 man And as for the Pagani, well Harry clearly has a love-in going on with the factory. And this is probably at the expense of other manufacturers. I certainly would'nt call it independent journalism, but then does this really matter?
Apparently the car was nothing special, but after Harry had spoken with the chaps at McLaren and passed on his wisdom the car was vastly improved.
Ok I asked for that, but Wow Tom73, I was not expecting such a forensic examination of that video. But before I offer my response, and I have said this on a number of occasions that I am a fan of Christian Von Koenigsegg the man. He took an idea and a dream and made it real. His latest cars are now produced to a very high standard but I stand by comments made on a number of occasions in the past that his early cars were substandard. Also I want to make it clear that I know two of the guys that work for Koenigsegg very well as friends.
Now too that video. Driven not only visited Koenigsegg but also did a similar video at Pagani. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz4KBh5I4WE
Was Harry's video a direct response to the Egg one I suspect not, why would they need too? Harry was already at the factory filming the first drive videos for the Huayra for EVO magazine. To review this car and not point out the things he did would not have left much to review. Cars in general are all filled with the same stuff. And let’s not forget that Harry has also been to the Koenigsegg factory on a number of occasions as can been seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVarKLId0wE I don’t notice him slagging the car off
On talking to people from both factories over the years, yes they are aware of what each is doing but I don’t think they spend much time worrying about it. If you talk to Horacio he will not even admit that Koenigsegg are a rival (but then he would say that)
At the end of the day the numbers speak for themselves Pagani has sold in percentage terms a lot more cars than Koenigsegg, they are 97% Pagani family owned and have no borrowing plus they are profitable. And last year were offered over $200 million for the company. Christian Von Koenigsegg owns I think it is 53% of his company, the rest is owned by technical partners and investors. Would he be offered $200 million? I suspect not.
Pagani’s success has been fuelled by producing the poster car of this generation. Magazines and media types have beaten a path to his door, high profile types have bought and the YouTube generation have produced almost universal positive PR with a number of professionally produced videos by Pagani himself as the cherry on the cake.
Koenigsegg need to do the same, this is business, its not selling out
Now let’s cover some of your technical questions. First the exhaust is ceramic coated on the finished car.
The battery does not need a heat shield as its location does not require it.
Now too the aero which is very misunderstood on this car. First it does not require a front splitter as the design of the nose section already acts line one and produces down force .
Unless you are privy to the wind tunnel tests on the flaps then how can you say they do not work? For a start they perform two main functions in conjunctions with the hydraulic front suspension. Under breaking the rear flaps raise as an aero brake moving the centre of pressure back whilst at the same time the front suspension raises so increasing break efficiency. As to the other use of stabilising the car during cornering the effect will increase with speed. I have some technical documentation info on this that I will post if I can find it.
Why opt for carbo titanium, why the hell not its meets the design criteria of the car.
Now too your comments about the cars design, how can a car designed by Pagani not be a Pagani design? As for the Spyker comparisons, are you serious?
As LFB has said I would love to visit the Koenigsegg factory at some point, as I said I have friends that work there. LFB’ second to last paragraph hits the nail on the head. These companies are fishing in a very shallow pond, Koenigsegg need to do more.
Now too that video. Driven not only visited Koenigsegg but also did a similar video at Pagani. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fz4KBh5I4WE
Was Harry's video a direct response to the Egg one I suspect not, why would they need too? Harry was already at the factory filming the first drive videos for the Huayra for EVO magazine. To review this car and not point out the things he did would not have left much to review. Cars in general are all filled with the same stuff. And let’s not forget that Harry has also been to the Koenigsegg factory on a number of occasions as can been seen here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVarKLId0wE I don’t notice him slagging the car off
On talking to people from both factories over the years, yes they are aware of what each is doing but I don’t think they spend much time worrying about it. If you talk to Horacio he will not even admit that Koenigsegg are a rival (but then he would say that)
At the end of the day the numbers speak for themselves Pagani has sold in percentage terms a lot more cars than Koenigsegg, they are 97% Pagani family owned and have no borrowing plus they are profitable. And last year were offered over $200 million for the company. Christian Von Koenigsegg owns I think it is 53% of his company, the rest is owned by technical partners and investors. Would he be offered $200 million? I suspect not.
Pagani’s success has been fuelled by producing the poster car of this generation. Magazines and media types have beaten a path to his door, high profile types have bought and the YouTube generation have produced almost universal positive PR with a number of professionally produced videos by Pagani himself as the cherry on the cake.
Koenigsegg need to do the same, this is business, its not selling out
Now let’s cover some of your technical questions. First the exhaust is ceramic coated on the finished car.
The battery does not need a heat shield as its location does not require it.
Now too the aero which is very misunderstood on this car. First it does not require a front splitter as the design of the nose section already acts line one and produces down force .
Unless you are privy to the wind tunnel tests on the flaps then how can you say they do not work? For a start they perform two main functions in conjunctions with the hydraulic front suspension. Under breaking the rear flaps raise as an aero brake moving the centre of pressure back whilst at the same time the front suspension raises so increasing break efficiency. As to the other use of stabilising the car during cornering the effect will increase with speed. I have some technical documentation info on this that I will post if I can find it.
Why opt for carbo titanium, why the hell not its meets the design criteria of the car.
Now too your comments about the cars design, how can a car designed by Pagani not be a Pagani design? As for the Spyker comparisons, are you serious?
As LFB has said I would love to visit the Koenigsegg factory at some point, as I said I have friends that work there. LFB’ second to last paragraph hits the nail on the head. These companies are fishing in a very shallow pond, Koenigsegg need to do more.
I am not going to dwell on politics too much, streetrod. Let me just point out that Christian had a successful, growing export business in Alpraaz which he started at 19 and that he made more money in one year with Alpraaz than he did during this entire time with Koenigsegg. You'd think he'd stuck with export if he wanted to make quick cash. He also raised more money in a bid for SAAB than Pagani has done during his entire career, so he hardly needs your or anyone else business advice because clearly money isn't the driving force or he'd be doing something else.
Harry's PR-job I think speaks for itself and a four minute video on Koenigsegg doesn't balance things out. Moving on...
The real bait is the technical "proposals" you've laid out and I'm going to bite.
"Based on our proprietary ThermoHold® formulation, these ceramic coatings can only be applied by Zircotec. A series of patent applications are in progress to protect our technology yet further."
And if they truly are on the "finished car" (any idea when we'll see one? Before 2030?) then Harry 's infatuation with them makes zero sense.
http://www.lithionicsbattery.com/index.html
Just thought I'd throw that out there. The idea of 'Arry gawking over plastic is funny to me. And strangely fitting.
Why? There's two reasons why the length of the front splitter tends to grow with the desired track capability. One, it extends the undertray and the extra length allows the flow to accelerate more. More acceleration in flow equals more venturi effect and downforce. Two, having the front splitters extend as long as possible beyond the wheels gives you better leverage and more surface area for the downforce created by the combination of the venturi effect on the bottom and the dam effect on top. Remove either the venturi effect or the dam effect and you will drastically reduce downforce.
You can also tell by looking at the rear diffusers that the downforce has been reduced. A diffuser sticking out at the back similarly produces a greater venturi effect, just as a double-decker or blown design would. The fins, which you see in any serious rear diffuser, are there to clean and again accelerate the flow. The rear diffuser on the Huayra neither extends from the body or sports fins, unlike the R which also sports a double-decker design, so assuming that the car was built with a fairly balanced downforce front and back absolutely nothing indicates that the car was built with track focus and downforce in mind.
For starters they will make the car aerodynamically unstable if you use them to negate roll. If you ran it in a cfd program you would see the front flaps doing all sorts of funky stuff including creating vortexes in the laminate flow. The car would behave unpredictably, like a small scale airplane going through a wash of random turbulence (or "wake turbulence" when formed behind the wings of a airplane). The channels in the bonnet will help clean some of the flow but flapping the flaps during cornering is simply out of the question. There are no amount of set parameters that could change this as it would be as if you were asking the car to calculate the behavior of a tornado and the effect it would have on a moving object going through it. There is a reason why an airplanes wings and fins are located to the side or the back, directing the vortices away from the body. It's the same reason why race cars uses the same practice. The front flaps may also actually LOWER downforce at some angles on the side they're raised due to the wake; literally as if the cockpit were being slipstreamed behind the wing.
Furthermore, consider the relative speed, leverage of the long wings and surface area of the flaps on a airplane compared to the speed, flap surface area and leverage of the short body on a car (I'm only drawing comparisons here because Pagani claims the whole car is built like a wing). If the car pulls more than a G in a turn the flaps would have to add several hundred kilos in the direct relation to the G-forces in order for them to have any considerable effect on roll and this would require massive flaps several times the size of a standard back wing or very extreme stalls. Airplanes "turn" with their flaps both bilaterally at the wings, front and back, and at the tail to change the entire aerodynamic shape of the airplane and create simultaneous jaw and roll by "bending" into the flow like a fish, and even then they are very cumbersome due to the forces involved. So why make the car aerodynamically unstable for a marginal theoretical change in cornering with the aid of aerodynamic flow when it's something you can easily do much more effectively mechanically with a anti-roll bar and tyres in a road going car? This does not make sense. The flaps wont do anything to negate centrifugal forces. The anti-roll bar does a better job at negating roll. The steering wheel and the traction of the tyres is of course far better at aiding jaw. Flapping the small flaps compared to a proper anti-roll bar and a set of tyres connected to a steering wheel would be like leaning out of the window flapping your arms instead of turning the steering wheel, hoping the former will do a better job of turning the car into a corner. It's naive, to say the least (whenever I see a Huayra owner with his gimmicky flaps I will picture him leaning out of the window and flapping his arms).
And there's one more problem. Even IF it were possible to get the desired effect with the factors involved; there are no commercially available system that can calculate the change in flow in real time for the front wings to be used safely to alter jaw and roll during cornering. In the aero industry they spend a considerable amount of time and money just to keep similarly aerodynamically unstable fighter jets in the air and there is no reasonable way for Pagani to do this with a car that is also interfacing with several other added factors of a road going vehicle. This would require some serious computational power, several hundred millions in development costs and more time and man power than Pagani could muster in a decade. Does anyone honestly think Pagani can do a better job at this than McDonnell Douglas/Boeing, SAAB Aero, Eurofighter GmbH and the likes? No?? Then understand that it is not possible.
So it is a pure gimmick. Airbrakes with a little added PR or hype to make them "special". They're as daft as the stupid non functional "wings" of the 90's. They're literally turning the clock back 20 years in the guise of progress. You may as well spit on the McLaren F1 and everything it represented to the supercar industry.
Feel free to correct me with your technical documentation. I would love to see this documentation as it would be an eye-opener for me, Ferrari, McLaren, McDonnell Douglas and NASA.
This is also why a properly engineered monocoque has non tensile fracture zones where the engine and the front connects with the monocoque. At a high energy impact you want the tension and shear strength to be balanced in such a way that those bits tear off the monocoque so that when it smashes into, say a wall, it only carries the weight and energy of the cockpit. If a supercar has a high energy impact and it doesn't split in two then it's poorly engineered. And watching some of the crash photos of Paganis it's amazing that no one has got seriously hurt yet.
It should look like this
or this
and not like this
(Why do the subframe bend before tearing off?? How come anything in front or behind the cockpit is not disintegrated into small pieces when the forces going through the monocoque are great enough to completely obliterate the subframe? Should a 62 mph crash like the one in the second picture eat away at the all carbon fiber monocoque and almost expose the passanger? Is "impending death" a design criteria?)
Harry's PR-job I think speaks for itself and a four minute video on Koenigsegg doesn't balance things out. Moving on...
The real bait is the technical "proposals" you've laid out and I'm going to bite.
streetrod said:
Now let’s cover some of your technical questions. First the exhaust is ceramic coated on the finished car.
All the Huayras (unlike the R's) I've seen so far lacked the ceramic coating. And it makes little sense to assemble the car and then coat it. Zircotec is the leader in this area and I believe Pagani used them as well for the R. The problem with doing it in the order you suggest is that they are coated by Zircotec themselves. In fact, here's a direct quote from their website:"Based on our proprietary ThermoHold® formulation, these ceramic coatings can only be applied by Zircotec. A series of patent applications are in progress to protect our technology yet further."
And if they truly are on the "finished car" (any idea when we'll see one? Before 2030?) then Harry 's infatuation with them makes zero sense.
streetrod said:
The battery does not need a heat shield as its location does not require it.
Upon further investigation the battery is probably not made in carbon fiber. It's more likely a carbon fiber patterned plastic and it's made by Lithionics.http://www.lithionicsbattery.com/index.html
Just thought I'd throw that out there. The idea of 'Arry gawking over plastic is funny to me. And strangely fitting.
streetrod said:
Now too the aero which is very misunderstood on this car. First it does not require a front splitter as the design of the nose section already acts line one and produces down force .
The nose section does not act like a proper front splitter.Why? There's two reasons why the length of the front splitter tends to grow with the desired track capability. One, it extends the undertray and the extra length allows the flow to accelerate more. More acceleration in flow equals more venturi effect and downforce. Two, having the front splitters extend as long as possible beyond the wheels gives you better leverage and more surface area for the downforce created by the combination of the venturi effect on the bottom and the dam effect on top. Remove either the venturi effect or the dam effect and you will drastically reduce downforce.
You can also tell by looking at the rear diffusers that the downforce has been reduced. A diffuser sticking out at the back similarly produces a greater venturi effect, just as a double-decker or blown design would. The fins, which you see in any serious rear diffuser, are there to clean and again accelerate the flow. The rear diffuser on the Huayra neither extends from the body or sports fins, unlike the R which also sports a double-decker design, so assuming that the car was built with a fairly balanced downforce front and back absolutely nothing indicates that the car was built with track focus and downforce in mind.
streetrod said:
Unless you are privy to the wind tunnel tests on the flaps then how can you say they do not work? For a start they perform two main functions in conjunctions with the hydraulic front suspension. Under breaking the rear flaps raise as an aero brake moving the centre of pressure back whilst at the same time the front suspension raises so increasing break efficiency. As to the other use of stabilising the car during cornering the effect will increase with speed. I have some technical documentation info on this that I will post if I can find it.
Ok. You asked for a lengthy tirade and you'll get one. For starters they will make the car aerodynamically unstable if you use them to negate roll. If you ran it in a cfd program you would see the front flaps doing all sorts of funky stuff including creating vortexes in the laminate flow. The car would behave unpredictably, like a small scale airplane going through a wash of random turbulence (or "wake turbulence" when formed behind the wings of a airplane). The channels in the bonnet will help clean some of the flow but flapping the flaps during cornering is simply out of the question. There are no amount of set parameters that could change this as it would be as if you were asking the car to calculate the behavior of a tornado and the effect it would have on a moving object going through it. There is a reason why an airplanes wings and fins are located to the side or the back, directing the vortices away from the body. It's the same reason why race cars uses the same practice. The front flaps may also actually LOWER downforce at some angles on the side they're raised due to the wake; literally as if the cockpit were being slipstreamed behind the wing.
Furthermore, consider the relative speed, leverage of the long wings and surface area of the flaps on a airplane compared to the speed, flap surface area and leverage of the short body on a car (I'm only drawing comparisons here because Pagani claims the whole car is built like a wing). If the car pulls more than a G in a turn the flaps would have to add several hundred kilos in the direct relation to the G-forces in order for them to have any considerable effect on roll and this would require massive flaps several times the size of a standard back wing or very extreme stalls. Airplanes "turn" with their flaps both bilaterally at the wings, front and back, and at the tail to change the entire aerodynamic shape of the airplane and create simultaneous jaw and roll by "bending" into the flow like a fish, and even then they are very cumbersome due to the forces involved. So why make the car aerodynamically unstable for a marginal theoretical change in cornering with the aid of aerodynamic flow when it's something you can easily do much more effectively mechanically with a anti-roll bar and tyres in a road going car? This does not make sense. The flaps wont do anything to negate centrifugal forces. The anti-roll bar does a better job at negating roll. The steering wheel and the traction of the tyres is of course far better at aiding jaw. Flapping the small flaps compared to a proper anti-roll bar and a set of tyres connected to a steering wheel would be like leaning out of the window flapping your arms instead of turning the steering wheel, hoping the former will do a better job of turning the car into a corner. It's naive, to say the least (whenever I see a Huayra owner with his gimmicky flaps I will picture him leaning out of the window and flapping his arms).
And there's one more problem. Even IF it were possible to get the desired effect with the factors involved; there are no commercially available system that can calculate the change in flow in real time for the front wings to be used safely to alter jaw and roll during cornering. In the aero industry they spend a considerable amount of time and money just to keep similarly aerodynamically unstable fighter jets in the air and there is no reasonable way for Pagani to do this with a car that is also interfacing with several other added factors of a road going vehicle. This would require some serious computational power, several hundred millions in development costs and more time and man power than Pagani could muster in a decade. Does anyone honestly think Pagani can do a better job at this than McDonnell Douglas/Boeing, SAAB Aero, Eurofighter GmbH and the likes? No?? Then understand that it is not possible.
So it is a pure gimmick. Airbrakes with a little added PR or hype to make them "special". They're as daft as the stupid non functional "wings" of the 90's. They're literally turning the clock back 20 years in the guise of progress. You may as well spit on the McLaren F1 and everything it represented to the supercar industry.
Feel free to correct me with your technical documentation. I would love to see this documentation as it would be an eye-opener for me, Ferrari, McLaren, McDonnell Douglas and NASA.
streetrod said:
Why opt for carbo titanium, why the hell not its meets the design criteria of the car.
The design criteria of a car like the Huayra should be the same as a Formula One car. It should be able to withstand the forces of a 230 mph crash and have the appropriate compression zones to eat some of the energy. You see, carbotanium only slightly improves tension and shear over raw carbon fiber, but it does nothing to aid compression and the tensile and shear strength will be less than just about any given laminate that incorporates raw materials with better tensile and shear strength. As a substitute for carbon fiber alone it's a great material but as a all in one material it's not very good. This is why in the racing and aero industry you laminate carbon fiber with other materials like divinycell, kevlar, polymer or aluminium honeycomb; to get the whole spectrum of tension, shear and compression. You don't do one or the other, you combine them depending on what the structure requires. This is also why a properly engineered monocoque has non tensile fracture zones where the engine and the front connects with the monocoque. At a high energy impact you want the tension and shear strength to be balanced in such a way that those bits tear off the monocoque so that when it smashes into, say a wall, it only carries the weight and energy of the cockpit. If a supercar has a high energy impact and it doesn't split in two then it's poorly engineered. And watching some of the crash photos of Paganis it's amazing that no one has got seriously hurt yet.
It should look like this
or this
and not like this
(Why do the subframe bend before tearing off?? How come anything in front or behind the cockpit is not disintegrated into small pieces when the forces going through the monocoque are great enough to completely obliterate the subframe? Should a 62 mph crash like the one in the second picture eat away at the all carbon fiber monocoque and almost expose the passanger? Is "impending death" a design criteria?)
streetrod said:
Now too your comments about the cars design, how can a car designed by Pagani not be a Pagani design? As for the Spyker comparisons, are you serious?
The Spyker C12 ZAGATO. And yes I'm serious. It looks like a Zagato design. The front, the glass roof, the side intakes and many lines carries the language of the C12. The interior looks like a C8. The rear reminds me of the Aston Martin V12 Zagato. There's a long list of cues but in short it looks like a Zagato interpretation of a Pagani. In my mind they've either done some headhunting though the years or hired Zagato like Spyker, Maserati, Aston Martin, Ferrari, Bentley et al before them. The latter would explain the massive design leap between the Zonda and the Huayra, which, if Horacio charges to cover the production of the car plus an approximate £20000 per car profit same as Koenigsegg does, should be impossible with the means at his disposal. Top73, from the top can we please try and keep this civil, I am not interested in winding you up and see no reason why you appear to be trying to make this personal. Harry's name is Harry, not Arry and Mr Pagani should warrant the same respect from you that Christian does from me, especially as neither are here to defend themselves
I can’t cover all of your points at this time as I just don’t have the time, but here are a few. First the exhaust you see are not nessasaraly the ones that end up on the finished car. Pagani uses a number of parts that are just used for mock up and testing purposes, with the final parts being added just prior to delivery. This practise can be seen on a number of videos. Also as you well know ceramic and plasma coatings come in a number of colours so you may not being seeing what you think you are seeing.
Under floor aero, The Huayra is not a race, you might argue its less of a race car than the Zonda, I would say it’s a very fast GT. But it is longer than a Zonda therefore has a longer floor and wheel base and larger area so increasing down force as you say. Also please note like the early Zonda's this car does not have an aggressive splitter or diffuser, these were added when the CS and Cinque appeared. Expect similar upgrades in the Huayra's future
Now why should the Huayra be built to F1 standards, I know of no other car that is, also it’s not a practical proposition. As for being able to stand up to a 230 MPH crash, what do you mean by that? Because if you mean the concreat block head on test even F1 cars are not tested at that speed, even if the car did survive the driver certainly would not.
Your crash pictures are also very misleading. You cannot draw any conclusions from those pics unless you know all of the factors that lead up to those pics. The second picture you mention you say happened at 62 MPH, I think you may find that that accident actually happened at between 160mph and 190mph depending on which report you believe. Oh and both passengers walked away.
Other crashes have shown the cars coming apart in the way you describe they should, what I find interesting is that some of those have actually been rebuilt using the original tubs, probably the most famous being the Blue Zonda Uno
To my knowledge no one has ever died or suffered a serious injury in a Pagani crash.
Now to the Pagani design language, Pagani's design's all predate the cars you mention. The glass roof as an example is a carryover from the Zonda which dates back to 1993. The interior is a step up from the Zonda’s, and let’s not forget that the Huayra initial designs were laid down in 1993, so that is a ten year gap over the Zonda. Pagani did the initial design work but he now employs a design team to help the details as the Huayra is a much more complex design. Too my knowledge he does not employ any ex Zagato designers. As for Pagani's profit margins you may want to add another zero to that number to get closer to the truth.
In conclusion mate I don’t want to clog up this thread with us going back and forth. If you want to discuss this anymore PM me and we can have a chat on the phone
I can’t cover all of your points at this time as I just don’t have the time, but here are a few. First the exhaust you see are not nessasaraly the ones that end up on the finished car. Pagani uses a number of parts that are just used for mock up and testing purposes, with the final parts being added just prior to delivery. This practise can be seen on a number of videos. Also as you well know ceramic and plasma coatings come in a number of colours so you may not being seeing what you think you are seeing.
Under floor aero, The Huayra is not a race, you might argue its less of a race car than the Zonda, I would say it’s a very fast GT. But it is longer than a Zonda therefore has a longer floor and wheel base and larger area so increasing down force as you say. Also please note like the early Zonda's this car does not have an aggressive splitter or diffuser, these were added when the CS and Cinque appeared. Expect similar upgrades in the Huayra's future
Now why should the Huayra be built to F1 standards, I know of no other car that is, also it’s not a practical proposition. As for being able to stand up to a 230 MPH crash, what do you mean by that? Because if you mean the concreat block head on test even F1 cars are not tested at that speed, even if the car did survive the driver certainly would not.
Your crash pictures are also very misleading. You cannot draw any conclusions from those pics unless you know all of the factors that lead up to those pics. The second picture you mention you say happened at 62 MPH, I think you may find that that accident actually happened at between 160mph and 190mph depending on which report you believe. Oh and both passengers walked away.
Other crashes have shown the cars coming apart in the way you describe they should, what I find interesting is that some of those have actually been rebuilt using the original tubs, probably the most famous being the Blue Zonda Uno
To my knowledge no one has ever died or suffered a serious injury in a Pagani crash.
Now to the Pagani design language, Pagani's design's all predate the cars you mention. The glass roof as an example is a carryover from the Zonda which dates back to 1993. The interior is a step up from the Zonda’s, and let’s not forget that the Huayra initial designs were laid down in 1993, so that is a ten year gap over the Zonda. Pagani did the initial design work but he now employs a design team to help the details as the Huayra is a much more complex design. Too my knowledge he does not employ any ex Zagato designers. As for Pagani's profit margins you may want to add another zero to that number to get closer to the truth.
In conclusion mate I don’t want to clog up this thread with us going back and forth. If you want to discuss this anymore PM me and we can have a chat on the phone
Tom73 said:
A lot of stuff
Jesus Tom, you clearly know your onions on the engineering side even though you're a bit out of touch on the marketing/sales side; but why so angry mate? FWIW, I found some of your comment on the technical aspects of the car interesting.Streetrod is right about the Zonda F crash. I had dinner with both of the occupants 2 nights after the accident and it was a looooong way from 62mph and they were both fine if a little achey and and shaken up.
Relax mate, we're all friends
Tom73 said:
It's good feature but I can't help but to find it quite disturbing that EVO/Harry continues their shameless tabloid hit-jobs for Pagani in Horacio's crazy PR-war against Koenigsegg.
It doesn't bother me that much. I appreciate the fact that he has good access to a company like Pagani and gets to show and tell us about these wonderful cars.. his relationship with them benefits those of us who'll never get near such machines! Gives you a feeling of what it'd be like to choose your car, and see it being built, and experience a trip to the factory.. albeit a tiny wee fraction of a feeling 
Gassing Station | Supercar General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff