McLaren 12c not selling?
Discussion
APOLO1 said:
To be fair if you take into account the actual cost of the early 12Cs along with free IRIS upgrade and the recent price increase, the actual loss is not half as bad as some on here would have you believe.
Not that bad??!! Mine was an early 12C, with free IRIS (that never actually worked), which I paid £210k for. I sold for £150k 1 year later (end of July). That's £5000 per month depreciation alone! (it actually cost more than that, as I had just over £1k to get the car ready for sale (tyres etc) and then £3k SOR fee from the dealer).I'm amazed people think that's 'not that bad'! Even my 25,000 mile V12 CL65 AMG didn't loose that much!
I usually expect to lose only £1k a month on most of my cars, that's excluding running costs finance etc. this is usually achieved by buying cars at least 3 years old that have taken a beating on value already.
I see this to be the sensible route with the 12c because I've a feeling they'll bottom out before to long and the doom mongers will have moved onto the next new model.
You buy a new car your going to get a kicking- it's what happens!.
I see this to be the sensible route with the 12c because I've a feeling they'll bottom out before to long and the doom mongers will have moved onto the next new model.
You buy a new car your going to get a kicking- it's what happens!.
Maff said:
Not that bad??!! Mine was an early 12C, with free IRIS (that never actually worked), which I paid £210k for. I sold for £150k 1 year later (end of July). That's £5000 per month depreciation alone! (it actually cost more than that, as I had just over £1k to get the car ready for sale (tyres etc) and then £3k SOR fee from the dealer).
I'm amazed people think that's 'not that bad'! Even my 25,000 mile V12 CL65 AMG didn't loose that much!
That's a nightmare. Wealthy or not, that has to hurt. Those who pretend it doesn't seem to be either navel gazing or have quite probably inherited.I'm amazed people think that's 'not that bad'! Even my 25,000 mile V12 CL65 AMG didn't loose that much!
This is the issue in reality. You pay £200 k plus, then as they are mileage sensitive, can't drive them. Then a new model is released and voila.....
As long as there are those who are prepared to drop 70k or 30-40 % of the value in 12 months, the Dealers will lap it up.
However, with the amount of surplus stock and discounts on new cars with no waiting list, could we be seeing the first signs of change ?. Very much hope so.
I am aware that the early cars were some what……..troublesome……these should have now been sorted.
Unfortunately we are in difficult economic times. Its not just the 12c and 458 that are affected. I know of a main agent a few weeks back that had just brought back 2 x FFs under 1500 miles on each at loss of 100k on each car……
Unfortunately we are in difficult economic times. Its not just the 12c and 458 that are affected. I know of a main agent a few weeks back that had just brought back 2 x FFs under 1500 miles on each at loss of 100k on each car……
Maff said:
Not that bad??!! Mine was an early 12C, with free IRIS (that never actually worked), which I paid £210k for. I sold for £150k 1 year later (end of July). That's £5000 per month depreciation alone! (it actually cost more than that, as I had just over £1k to get the car ready for sale (tyres etc) and then £3k SOR fee from the dealer).
I'm amazed people think that's 'not that bad'! Even my 25,000 mile V12 CL65 AMG didn't loose that much!
My point exactly. It takes a lot of earning. I'm amazed people think that's 'not that bad'! Even my 25,000 mile V12 CL65 AMG didn't loose that much!
Normally it's the big engined Mercs who are the culprits, however the jag xj220 takes some beating for 1st year depreciation lol
APOLO1 said:
I am aware that the early cars were some what……..troublesome……these should have now been sorted.
Unfortunately we are in difficult economic times. Its not just the 12c and 458 that are affected. I know of a main agent a few weeks back that had just brought back 2 x FFs under 1500 miles on each at loss of 100k on each car……
Really??? I have to say this one seems strange as 1 year old ones are still going for 200 plus and the cars were very unlikely spec'd above 250k. Unfortunately we are in difficult economic times. Its not just the 12c and 458 that are affected. I know of a main agent a few weeks back that had just brought back 2 x FFs under 1500 miles on each at loss of 100k on each car……
I would say Maff is the best to comment as he has had most cars we are talking about.
Edited by baileyconstruct on Monday 31st December 18:25
We're bringing this horrendous depreciation upon ourselves aren't we?
Selling cars such as this after 3,6 or 12 months is crazy in reality and we daren't drive the things because any mileage hammers the value even more. So, unless you really have the sell the thing for some unexpected reason, keep it, drive it,put some miles on it and use it for a few years.
Eventually, with fewer almost new cars on the market prices will firm up - simples really. If there is a demand for something but it isn't available, the price will rise until it becomes available.
If you are someone who has to have the latest toy,gadget or car then fine - but be prepared to pay for it.
Selling cars such as this after 3,6 or 12 months is crazy in reality and we daren't drive the things because any mileage hammers the value even more. So, unless you really have the sell the thing for some unexpected reason, keep it, drive it,put some miles on it and use it for a few years.
Eventually, with fewer almost new cars on the market prices will firm up - simples really. If there is a demand for something but it isn't available, the price will rise until it becomes available.
If you are someone who has to have the latest toy,gadget or car then fine - but be prepared to pay for it.
Robbo66 said:
This is the issue in reality. You pay £200 k plus, then as they are mileage sensitive, can't drive them. Then a new model is released and voila.....
And this is exactly why I've gone back to a GT3 and will be staying there for a long time. I got bored with worrying about adding miles on my cars, or going out in salty conditions etc. I use the GT3 everyday and have averaged 1k miles per month. I'm loving every minute of it and depreciation will be minimal (£20k over the next three years).I'm so glad I jumped out of my 12c as quickly as I did (I was bored of it breaking!),
Totally agree with last post...it's called a depreciation curve for a reason.Getting in at the best possible price is understandable,but if somebody is buying a supercar with an eye on selling it anytime shortly after should resist the urge.FF's are a perfect example of a car bound to depreciate extremely aggressively from new,but I know somebody who'll have his 5 years and do 50k miles so to him it'll depreciate far less than in the vast majority of supercar buyers' cases.If you're trying to call the bottom it's damn near impossible.Buy and enjoy and use it...as much as possible.
peralta said:
We're bringing this horrendous depreciation upon ourselves aren't we?
Selling cars such as this after 3,6 or 12 months is crazy in reality and we daren't drive the things because any mileage hammers the value even more. So, unless you really have the sell the thing for some unexpected reason, keep it, drive it,put some miles on it and use it for a few years.
Eventually, with fewer almost new cars on the market prices will firm up - simples really. If there is a demand for something but it isn't available, the price will rise until it becomes available.
If you are someone who has to have the latest toy,gadget or car then fine - but be prepared to pay for it.
This man talks sense ^^^^Selling cars such as this after 3,6 or 12 months is crazy in reality and we daren't drive the things because any mileage hammers the value even more. So, unless you really have the sell the thing for some unexpected reason, keep it, drive it,put some miles on it and use it for a few years.
Eventually, with fewer almost new cars on the market prices will firm up - simples really. If there is a demand for something but it isn't available, the price will rise until it becomes available.
If you are someone who has to have the latest toy,gadget or car then fine - but be prepared to pay for it.
Anyway if you think the depreciation on those two cars is bad have a thought for those poor souls that dropped a wad on Veyron, they really know what depreciation means
Maff said:
Not that bad??!! Mine was an early 12C, with free IRIS (that never actually worked), which I paid £210k for. I sold for £150k 1 year later (end of July). That's £5000 per month depreciation alone! (it actually cost more than that, as I had just over £1k to get the car ready for sale (tyres etc) and then £3k SOR fee from the dealer).
I'm amazed people think that's 'not that bad'! Even my 25,000 mile V12 CL65 AMG didn't loose that much!
But as has been touched on earlier, you added 30k worth of extras which to my mind with any car you will never ever get back, so your loss really should be calculated from base price which without looking up was suggested earlier as 180kI'm amazed people think that's 'not that bad'! Even my 25,000 mile V12 CL65 AMG didn't loose that much!
I'm not in the market but to me a new std car would be preferable to a used specked up car
TISPKJ said:
Maff said:
Not that bad??!! Mine was an early 12C, with free IRIS (that never actually worked), which I paid £210k for. I sold for £150k 1 year later (end of July). That's £5000 per month depreciation alone! (it actually cost more than that, as I had just over £1k to get the car ready for sale (tyres etc) and then £3k SOR fee from the dealer).
I'm amazed people think that's 'not that bad'! Even my 25,000 mile V12 CL65 AMG didn't loose that much!
But as has been touched on earlier, you added 30k worth of extras which to my mind with any car you will never ever get back, so your loss really should be calculated from base price which without looking up was suggested earlier as 180kI'm amazed people think that's 'not that bad'! Even my 25,000 mile V12 CL65 AMG didn't loose that much!
I'm not in the market but to me a new std car would be preferable to a used specked up car
And when it comes to selling, I would not buy a second hand one without the above, and generally when you come to sell it X years time the dealer will shy away from a decent trade in price and it will be harder to sell than an optioned car. I think you will find most 458's and 12C's have at least 10k to 25k of options on them.
As an example, my 599 GTO, FF and 458 Spider all have the £12k option for out of range paint, which I know I will never get back come sale time and I happily ordered them with that knowledge from the start. However nothing on my 12C was that out of the ordinary. Just lots of smaller things that added up to a lot. Some of those options are probably now standard equipment with the recent price rise.
And as to why I sold my 12C after just 11 and a bit months.... I couldn't wait to get rid of it. Yes it was an early car with LOTS of issues but never have I owned a car that went back to the dealer 12 times, had a massive water leak that turned it into a swimming pool in both footwells, rusted, and failed to start on my wife in the middle of London at midnight at a petrol station due to the keyless go/entry failing to name just 30% of the issues my car had. On top of that McLaren failed to listen, even when I went to the factory for a meeting, and then sold a car I had agreed as a replacement for mine whilst I was on holiday but then expected me to pay an extra £30k to upgrade to a newer even higher spec car than mine, and would generally not accept any responsibility for the faults on my car, specifically water ingress (stating it was OK to have a water filled interior as no electronics were damaged! ).
I *was* on the list for the P12 and hard core 12C, but after my dealings with them and their ignorance (factory) I wouldn't offer them another penny. They must have forgot I even lent the factory my brand new F430 at the time so they could use it for development of the 12C. No chance of a return favour.
Shame, as if they cared about customers I would have spent a lot more money with them. Thankfully Ferrari do care very much, and as such I cant wait for the F70.
End of rant. But someone did ask why I sold it :-)
Edited by Maff on Monday 31st December 20:45
Edited by Maff on Monday 31st December 20:50
Wonder what the depreciation on this badboy's like?
http://www.boatinternational.com/yacht-sales/31303...
Kinda puts the 12c's pricedrop into a wider perspective, doesn't it, when you think that some dudes spend the price of an aventador on a tank full of diesel for their toy!!
http://www.boatinternational.com/yacht-sales/31303...
Kinda puts the 12c's pricedrop into a wider perspective, doesn't it, when you think that some dudes spend the price of an aventador on a tank full of diesel for their toy!!
The point that you are all missing about the Mclaren, is that its a car for the long term. It will regularly get upgraded so that in a few years time, the 2011 car could be pushing out 700bhp, faster gearbox, etc. Can you possibly compare that with a 2011 ferrari 458, with its 567bhp, and much higher volumes? No, the Mclaren will come good later -plus owners are actually driving them and putting miles on them.
Ferraris tend to hold their price at the beginning of the product cycle, giving the regular customers the relatively free ride....its a bit like pyramid selling scheme - its the insiders that make the premiums. Just look at prices of 430 - its the old model and can be had for as little as £70k. However the Mclaren will never appear "old" due to the upgrades.
One more thing - will the 458 scuderia have more power than the mclaren? And what if the 2014 mclaren has 650bhp? How will the 458 deal with that?
Ferraris tend to hold their price at the beginning of the product cycle, giving the regular customers the relatively free ride....its a bit like pyramid selling scheme - its the insiders that make the premiums. Just look at prices of 430 - its the old model and can be had for as little as £70k. However the Mclaren will never appear "old" due to the upgrades.
One more thing - will the 458 scuderia have more power than the mclaren? And what if the 2014 mclaren has 650bhp? How will the 458 deal with that?
The 12C is clearly not selling as McL wanted, best evidenced by (lack of) waiting list, and the discounts being offered. I got from a dealer at the end of November) offering almost 40k off a new one if I could commit then and there. Having had one before, and made my feelings pretty clear on here at the time, I said no thanks. I assumed they'd sorted a lot of the early issues, although reading Maff's tale makes me think this isn't the case, but my experience with the factory at the time hardly endeared them to me. Partly for this reason, and partly because I think 500 is too many cars, I had a good look at the P1 at the factory but haven't taken it any further. I suspect the depreciation on this could make the 12C look like a good investment.
The FF is an interesting one. I had mine three months last winter, sold it in the Spring, took a bloody nose but figured much worse was to come. The dealer still has it. I feel bad about this, but not bad enough to buy it back. Meanwhile I've recently sold my 458 Spider for under list too (was due in May, came in September, and when I sold it in December hadn't driven it for 6 weeks for one reason or another). Great car, but I could see myself not using it until spring, and figured I'm fed up with owning cars I don't currently drive, so take the (albeit fairly small) pill now and move on.
As someone else said, the bottom line is that in this market these things are costing money to own in depreciation terms. Think several years in the 2000s got everyone used to being able to own a car for a few months and get out relatively unscathed, but that's just not going to happen in the current climate (there will be the odd exception, step forward F70). 599s were trading above list for an insanely long time when they came out, despite everyone knowing what happens to Ferrari V12 residuals in the end. This was not the norm - I remember getting one of Graypaul's very first 575's and taking a big hit a few months later, and the same on a Carrera GT a couple of years after that.
What's my point? If you're happy to own these and not watch the prices constantly with a raised eyebrow and increased pulse then fantastic, they're a lot of fun, but no one should kid themselves that such-and-such a model is a great buy and will be free motoring for a while. Sadly there doesn't seem to be enough money chasing the deals to keep values up. Just try getting a bid on any of the above cars and it'll tell you everything you need to know. The FF attracted a grand total of one bid (even the dealer I bought it from didn't want it), and even the Spider had at least one main dealer who admitted they didn't want it and were a little nervous.
The FF is an interesting one. I had mine three months last winter, sold it in the Spring, took a bloody nose but figured much worse was to come. The dealer still has it. I feel bad about this, but not bad enough to buy it back. Meanwhile I've recently sold my 458 Spider for under list too (was due in May, came in September, and when I sold it in December hadn't driven it for 6 weeks for one reason or another). Great car, but I could see myself not using it until spring, and figured I'm fed up with owning cars I don't currently drive, so take the (albeit fairly small) pill now and move on.
As someone else said, the bottom line is that in this market these things are costing money to own in depreciation terms. Think several years in the 2000s got everyone used to being able to own a car for a few months and get out relatively unscathed, but that's just not going to happen in the current climate (there will be the odd exception, step forward F70). 599s were trading above list for an insanely long time when they came out, despite everyone knowing what happens to Ferrari V12 residuals in the end. This was not the norm - I remember getting one of Graypaul's very first 575's and taking a big hit a few months later, and the same on a Carrera GT a couple of years after that.
What's my point? If you're happy to own these and not watch the prices constantly with a raised eyebrow and increased pulse then fantastic, they're a lot of fun, but no one should kid themselves that such-and-such a model is a great buy and will be free motoring for a while. Sadly there doesn't seem to be enough money chasing the deals to keep values up. Just try getting a bid on any of the above cars and it'll tell you everything you need to know. The FF attracted a grand total of one bid (even the dealer I bought it from didn't want it), and even the Spider had at least one main dealer who admitted they didn't want it and were a little nervous.
baileyconstruct said:
APOLO1 said:
I am aware that the early cars were some what……..troublesome……these should have now been sorted.
Unfortunately we are in difficult economic times. Its not just the 12c and 458 that are affected. I know of a main agent a few weeks back that had just brought back 2 x FFs under 1500 miles on each at loss of 100k on each car……
Really??? I have to say this one seems strange as 1 year old ones are still going for 200 plus and the cars were very unlikely spec'd above 250k. Unfortunately we are in difficult economic times. Its not just the 12c and 458 that are affected. I know of a main agent a few weeks back that had just brought back 2 x FFs under 1500 miles on each at loss of 100k on each car……
I would say Maff is the best to comment as he has had most cars we are talking about.
Edited by baileyconstruct on Monday 31st December 18:25
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Seemingly Ferrari tightly control the used market....dealers weren't/aren't allowed to advertise all the used FF's they have in stock. General consensus seems to be that you can buy a new car for what the few used cars are being advertised for and that the real price is sub £200k for a used car.
baileyconstruct said:
APOLO1 said:
I am aware that the early cars were some what……..troublesome……these should have now been sorted.
Unfortunately we are in difficult economic times. Its not just the 12c and 458 that are affected. I know of a main agent a few weeks back that had just brought back 2 x FFs under 1500 miles on each at loss of 100k on each car……
Really??? I have to say this one seems strange as 1 year old ones are still going for 200 plus and the cars were very unlikely spec'd above 250k.
I would say Maff is the best to comment as he has had most cars we are talking about.
Edited by baileyconstruct on Monday 31st December 18:25
There's a thread here about FF's.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Seemingly Ferrari tightly control the used market....dealers weren't/aren't allowed to advertise all the used FF's they have in stock. General consensus seems to be that you can buy a new car for what the few used cars are being advertised for and that the real price is sub £200k for a used car.
As I said it’s not strange, it’s true. The 100k loss within 8 weeks was the best offer….
With regard to the 12c.If correct, Its disappointing that dealers are offering such large discounts on unsold coupes, I am aware that there are a handful of odd spec unsold cars around, until these are sold, I can not see coupe prices firming up in the short term, this notwithstanding the extremely low allocation for the UK this year.
Hopefully the 12C SP prices will fair better in line with the unprecedented world wide press.
Reliability wise the later cars appear to be sorted. I have had my car from 03-12 now covered 9k miles, 3 problems, broken jubilee clip on turbo hose, window seal , and air con drain pipe. All fixed with out fuss same day.
APOLO1 said:
I am aware that the early cars were some what……..troublesome……these should have now been sorted.
Unfortunately we are in difficult economic times. Its not just the 12c and 458 that are affected. I know of a main agent a few weeks back that had just brought back 2 x FFs under 1500 miles on each at loss of 100k on each car……
Really??? I have to say this one seems strange as 1 year old ones are still going for 200 plus and the cars were very unlikely spec'd above 250k.
I would say Maff is the best to comment as he has had most cars we are talking about.
Edited by baileyconstruct on Monday 31st December 18:25
There's a thread here about FF's.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Seemingly Ferrari tightly control the used market....dealers weren't/aren't allowed to advertise all the used FF's they have in stock. General consensus seems to be that you can buy a new car for what the few used cars are being advertised for and that the real price is sub £200k for a used car.
As I said it’s not strange, it’s true. The 100k loss within 8 weeks was the best offer….
With regard to the 12c.If correct, Its disappointing that dealers are offering such large discounts on unsold coupes, I am aware that there are a handful of odd spec unsold cars around, until these are sold, I can not see coupe prices firming up in the short term, this notwithstanding the extremely low allocation for the UK this year.
Hopefully the 12C SP prices will fair better in line with the unprecedented world wide press.
Reliability wise the later cars appear to be sorted. I have had my car from 03-12 now covered 9k miles, 3 problems, broken jubilee clip on turbo hose, window seal , and air con drain pipe. All fixed with out fuss same day.
Edited by APOLO1 on Tuesday 1st January 09:36
I have a march 12 car and have had absolutely no issues. These threads frustrate me and get me believing the car is supposed to be an investment as opposed to a huge amount of fun. I just came back from a New Year's morning blast to remind myself how much I love the thing and the grin it puts on my face.
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