McLaren 12c not selling?

[Lambo FirstBlood]

Maff said:

TBH you need to put options on both the 458 and 12C. If you are spending £170k+ on a car, I would happily spend the extra on options to have parking sensors, electric seats, a sat nav, sports exhaust and a little bit of carbon on the steering wheel.

And when it comes to selling, I would not buy a second hand one without the above, and generally when you come to sell it X years time the dealer will shy away from a decent trade in price and it will be harder to sell than an optioned car. I think you will find most 458's and 12C's have at least 10k to 25k of options on them.

As an example, my 599 GTO, FF and 458 Spider all have the £12k option for out of range paint, which I know I will never get back come sale time and I happily ordered them with that knowledge from the start. However nothing on my 12C was that out of the ordinary. Just lots of smaller things that added up to a lot. Some of those options are probably now standard equipment with the recent price rise.

And as to why I sold my 12C after just 11 and a bit months.... I couldn't wait to get rid of it. Yes it was an early car with LOTS of issues but never have I owned a car that went back to the dealer 12 times, had a massive water leak that turned it into a swimming pool in both footwells, rusted, and failed to start on my wife in the middle of London at midnight at a petrol station due to the keyless go/entry failing to name just 30% of the issues my car had. On top of that McLaren failed to listen, even when I went to the factory for a meeting, and then sold a car I had agreed as a replacement for mine whilst I was on holiday but then expected me to pay an extra £30k to upgrade to a newer even higher spec car than mine, and would generally not accept any responsibility for the faults on my car, specifically water ingress (stating it was OK to have a water filled interior as no electronics were damaged! ).

I *was* on the list for the P12 and hard core 12C, but after my dealings with them and their ignorance (factory) I wouldn't offer them another penny. They must have forgot I even lent the factory my brand new F430 at the time so they could use it for development of the 12C. No chance of a return favour.

Shame, as if they cared about customers I would have spent a lot more money with them. Thankfully Ferrari do care very much, and as such I cant wait for the F70.

End of rant. But someone did ask why I sold it :-)

Edited by Maff on Monday 31st December 20:45

Edited by Maff on Monday 31st December 20:50

Maff,

I feel for you mate. I had a very early car (August 2011; I recall us comparing notes on here at the time) that was wrought with problems and I was hearing people saying it will get better, please bear with us, it will be the best car in the world etc etc.

I got out of mine early and actually took a small profit (sorry!!) after I had had 3 visits from the factory to my home to fix the car and 2 trips back to the dealer in 2 months. To hear that your problems continued long after, reassure me I did the right thing.

I too was on the list for the P12 and lovely thing as it is, the thought of it breaking all the time and depreciating this badly when there are some big numbers involved terrifies me. I'm not fortunate enough to be on the list as you are for the F70 but that has to be the closest thing to a sure thing in modern motoring.

[willy wombat]

I lost £40K (24%) on a California over 18 months and thought myself hard done by but reading this thread, I clearly got off lightly. Thank heavens I didn't go ahead with my 12C order. However, my 458 Spider is being delivered tomorrow and I intend to drive it and not worry about the resale value.

[TP321]

You just cant win... Either you buy new and get the state of the art car, but then get hit with the depreciation, or you drive around in an older car which is out of date, but less depreciation. The cars that appreciate in value will always be out of date in terms of technology.

But we only live once, and if you can afford it, then you must, as at the end all that we will be left with is the memories and the photos. No one takes it with them.

Happy 2013

[andysv]

Agree with above, I keep myself content knowing that a couple of my older cars appreciate, this helps me justify any loss on a newer car.

[Streetrod]

TP321 said:

You just cant win... Either you buy new and get the state of the art car, but then get hit with the depreciation, or you drive around in an older car which is out of date, but less depreciation. The cars that appreciate in value will always be out of date in terms of technology.

But we only live once, and if you can afford it, then you must, as at the end all that we will be left with is the memories and the photos. No one takes it with them.

Happy 2013

Now here's a thing to those early adopters, when you buy one of these new cars is it because you think it will be better than your last car or do you just have to have the latest toy in your garage?

I must admit by any measurable dynamic the latest models knock the older cars into a cock hat but I honestly feel the latest models just are not as much fun and don’t offer me what I look for in a car. When I tested the 458 I thought this car is amazing, but it left me cold, why, because it required none of the skills I had honed over the last 35 years behind the wheel to drive fast. Basically its idiot proof. Yes I understand this is progress but from a sheer enjoyment point of view I feel these new cars are going in the wrong direction.

They are too fast to be exploited on the road so you never feel like you or the car are getting the best out of each other. And even on the track the ability to stomp on the go peddle way before an apex and have the car meter out just enough speed to get you around the corner made me feel like a passenger. The 458 to me could best be described as "synthetic"

I know this may not be a populist view, just a personal one, but I feel sad that over the last five years of so great as these new models are none has really excited me. I think I'm getting old

PS to the guy driving the 288 GTO on the A3 today in a rather spirited fashion, you renewed my faith in the supercar

Sorry rant over

[Robbo66]

Streetrod said:

Now here's a thing to those early adopters, when you buy one of these new cars is it because you think it will be better than your last car or do you just have to have the latest toy in your garage?

I must admit by any measurable dynamic the latest models knock the older cars into a cock hat but I honestly feel the latest models just are not as much fun and don’t offer me what I look for in a car. When I tested the 458 I thought this car is amazing, but it left me cold, why, because it required none of the skills I had honed over the last 35 years behind the wheel to drive fast. Basically its idiot proof. Yes I understand this is progress but from a sheer enjoyment point of view I feel these new cars are going in the wrong direction.

They are too fast to be exploited on the road so you never feel like you or the car are getting the best out of each other. And even on the track the ability to stomp on the go peddle way before an apex and have the car meter out just enough speed to get you around the corner made me feel like a passenger. The 458 to me could best be described as "synthetic"

I know this may not be a populist view, just a personal one, but I feel sad that over the last five years of so great as these new models are none has really excited me. I think I'm getting old

PS to the guy driving the 288 GTO on the A3 today in a rather spirited fashion, you renewed my faith in the supercar

Sorry rant over

Felt the same re 458. I can see why the classics have made such a resurgence.

[Maff]

Robbo66 said:

Streetrod said:

Now here's a thing to those early adopters, when you buy one of these new cars is it because you think it will be better than your last car or do you just have to have the latest toy in your garage?

I must admit by any measurable dynamic the latest models knock the older cars into a cock hat but I honestly feel the latest models just are not as much fun and don’t offer me what I look for in a car. When I tested the 458 I thought this car is amazing, but it left me cold, why, because it required none of the skills I had honed over the last 35 years behind the wheel to drive fast. Basically its idiot proof. Yes I understand this is progress but from a sheer enjoyment point of view I feel these new cars are going in the wrong direction.

They are too fast to be exploited on the road so you never feel like you or the car are getting the best out of each other. And even on the track the ability to stomp on the go peddle way before an apex and have the car meter out just enough speed to get you around the corner made me feel like a passenger. The 458 to me could best be described as "synthetic"

I know this may not be a populist view, just a personal one, but I feel sad that over the last five years of so great as these new models are none has really excited me. I think I'm getting old

PS to the guy driving the 288 GTO on the A3 today in a rather spirited fashion, you renewed my faith in the supercar

Sorry rant over

Felt the same re 458. I can see why the classics have made such a resurgence.

Fully agree. A spirited drive in a sorted classic is way more fun than a modern car. My most memorable drives in 2012 were in 45+ year old cars. And they appreciate!

[hornbaek]

I believe we are (have entered) into another era. Conspicuous consumption is over and with the end of City bonuses and the introduction of a 45% tax rate I think that people will eventually discover that money is harder to make and that is has to last longer. 30 years ago cars like Bentley, Rolls Royce and even Porsche were relatively expensive and hence only for the few. Today these cars have become (relatively) affordable. Through the introduction of finance offers this trend has been increased. Try to compare the price of a Porsche to the price of the average London flat and you will see that cars have become more affordable whilst living expenses have gone up dramatically. Loosing 50 -75k in depreciation on a car becomes a financial nonsense as it is much harder to make that money in the first place with low interest rates and high taxes and less "easy money". Also there has been a lot more supply into the 100k - 150k car market and what we are seeing now is that we are at the tipping point where there simply is no longer a market for these cars in Europe and unless manufacturers scale back dramatically we will see oversupply killing residuals for a long time to come.

[JazzyO]

Robbo66 said:

Felt the same re 458. I can see why the classics have made such a resurgence.

Personally, I feel the 458 compliments my classic Ferraris perfectly. I love the 458, I really do, and I cannot for the life of me believe that Streetrod (or anyone else) would be left cold if they drove the 458 on the limit. It is a joy to drive in those circumstances.

Of course, the problem is that those circumstances are rare, and in the far majority of cases it would be irresponsible to go and look for them.

The other downside to the latest and greatest from Ferrari (or McLaren or anyone else) is that it is inevitably not the latest and greatest after a couple of years. Then you start to get irritated that the iPod support is only for outdated iPods, or the SatNav can't be updated with more recent maps, or etc. etc..

For me, the classics are the ones that will stay. But it is great to own a 458 right now. I wish I could justify keeping it and be damned with the depreciation.

And I repeat - if the 458 leaves you cold, IMHO you haven't driven it in anger. It is a wonderfully tactile machine. Just switch everything off and see what skills you need: plenty.


Onno

Edited by JazzyO on Wednesday 2nd January 09:23

[APOLO1]

Horn, Good Post,

My understanding is that 12cs will upgraded to current spec, irrespective of age of the car. I am not sure if this will be done FOC all the time. I would have been happy to pay a small amount for the extra 25HP, along with the other upgrades, (IRIS excluded.) In order to keep my car current. Porsche charge 10k for an extra 25bhp.

In responce to the OP it is interesting to note the “staggering” amount of 458s for sale as set out above, against the amount of 12cs, Taking into account the amounts of cars for each model delivered to the UK. It appears that 458 owners are getting out of there cars, were as 12c owners are keeping there’s. IMHO… Whilst i accept that 458 is great car, for me the 12c as an allround package is......just better

Edited by APOLO1 on Wednesday 2nd January 10:21

[ianbr]

Fully agree. A spirited drive in a sorted classic is way more fun than a modern car. My most memorable drives in 2012 were in 45+ year old cars. And they appreciate!


You have got a rather nice selction of 45 + year old cars to choose from and I assume more fun can be had a much lower speeds in an older, simpler car. I am sure the maintenance costs and appreciation compare favourable well to such cars as a 458 or FF as well

Ian

[hornbaek]

Whilst I share the view that you can have much more fun in 45+ cars it is not entirely true that they are chap to run. In 1963 my DB4 was one of the fastest cars around. They were by no means "an everyday car" and required regular maintenance and were not really build to last in the same way as today's super cars are. My DB4 has undergone a complete body off restoration and had upgrades to both gearbox, engine, drivetrain and brakes as the early Astons were not that great to drive. The restoration and upgrades will set you back north of 150k and these costs are not getting cheaper as few people are around to perform these crafts and waiting lists are long at the renowned restorers such as Aston Works Service or Richard Williams etc. So you have to be able to afford continues maintenance and also be very restrictive in its use in order to maintain its value. But depreciate it will not.

Very little beats a blast down the East Sussex country roads on the way down to The Goodwood Revival.

Edited by hornbaek on Wednesday 2nd January 10:50

[Streetrod]

JazzyO said:

Robbo66 said:

Felt the same re 458. I can see why the classics have made such a resurgence.

Personally, I feel the 458 compliments my classic Ferraris perfectly. I love the 458, I really do, and I cannot for the life of me believe that Streetrod (or anyone else) would be left cold if they drove the 458 on the limit. It is a joy to drive in those circumstances.

Of course, the problem is that those circumstances are rare, and in the far majority of cases it would be irresponsible to go and look for them.

The other downside to the latest and greatest from Ferrari (or McLaren or anyone else) is that it is inevitably not the latest and greatest after a couple of years. Then you start to get irritated that the iPod support is only for outdated iPods, or the SatNav can't be updated with more recent maps, or etc. etc..

For me, the classics are the ones that will stay. But it is great to own a 458 right now. I wish I could justify keeping it and be damned with the depreciation.

And I repeat - if the 458 leaves you cold, IMHO you haven't driven it in anger. It is a wonderfully tactile machine. Just switch everything off and see what skills you need: plenty.


Onno

Edited by JazzyO on Wednesday 2nd January 09:23

Jazzy I have always respected your posts as I know you are both an owner and lover of both classics and moderns. But I stand by what I said, and too add I have driven the 458 in anger at Silverstone with all the toys turned off, I was nearly six seconds per lap slower and nearly killed my self on a couple of occasions.
I would describe the 458 as a ground based version of the Euro fighter, i.e. the car is inherently unstable with the computers turned off, just like the Euro fighter cannot fly without computer intervention. But strangely this is what makes it so good when they are turned on again.

I don’t regard myself as a wonderfully talented wheel jockey but I'm not bad, with the toys turned off I was constantly fighting the car. When I spoke to my racing instructor he too admitted that you really needed to be on your game to get the best out of the car with the computers off and would never recommend even the best to drive it on the street in a spirited fashion with them off. So it’s not just me.

The thing I come from an era where you could get a sports car into a four wheel drift on the public roads without having to travel at warp speed to do it. I am not a complete luddite but I do feel that the constant progress to wards faster and faster road cars has resulted for legal and safety reasons in cars that require less and less from the driver

[ianbr]

hornbaek said:

Whilst I share the view that you can have much more fun in 45+ cars it is not entirely true that they are chap to run. In 1963 my DB4 was one of the fastest cars around. They were by no means "an everyday car" and required regular maintenance and were not really build to last in the same way as today's super cars are. My DB4 has undergone a complete body off restoration and had upgrades to both gearbox, engine, drivetrain and brakes as the early Astons were not that great to drive. The restoration and upgrades will set you back north of 150k and these costs are not getting cheaper as few people are around to perform these crafts and waiting lists are long at the renowned restorers such as Aston Works Service or Richard Williams etc. So you have to be able to afford continues maintenance and also be very restrictive in its use in order to maintain its value. But depreciate it will not.

Very little beats a blast down the East Sussex country roads on the way down to The Goodwood Revival.

Edited by hornbaek on Wednesday 2nd January 10:50

also absolutely gorgeous, in a very different way that a 458 or 12c are good looking

[JazzyO]

Streetrod said:

But I stand by what I said, and too add I have driven the 458 in anger at Silverstone with all the toys turned off

OK, fair play, and thankfully we don't all have to share the same opinion. For me, I was most surprised at how I communicated with the 458 and I love the experience when it happens. I felt like I was talking to it in the same way I am having subliminal conversations with my BB or GTC. Just a much quicker rap, that's all. I do have to say that the time around the track interests me not one jot. It is clear to me that with aids I am quicker (by how much, I do not know). But I am there to have a good time and to learn something. Generally speaking I don't even know what my lap time was for the day.

But as said - I do share your feelings to a large extent. Since the essence of driving is my primary enjoyment, my classics hold a more lasting appeal to me than the 458 does. The 458 however does things that they can't and that has its own appeal to me. Like I said, they compliment each other.

The point made above about classic cars not being cheap is also well made, although it is also hugely dependent on what you mean by a classic car, and what you mean by cheap. Classic cars of the status of Ferrari and Aston Martin will cost you a large sum of money every time they need work.


Onno

[Robbo66]

I am adamant that in the pusuit of speed, the 12C and similar cars have lost both feel and have become far larger & heavier in comparison to a well prepared classic. Beauty has also been shed and replaced with that faint whiff of Wilmslow, for the vast majority.
Even Aston have managed a certain amount of Chav detail to start to 'grin' through.

You do not need to be entering a Welsh mountain switchback at warp speed with a plethora of electronic gadgets whirring away in the background to enjoy to the max.

The V12V is sumptuous, but the keys to the RS are taken every time. No comparison.

[sone]

I like my cars very shiny and as new as possible, I've been down the classic/iconic route before and its not a place I'll return.
A 930 Turbot Porsche I had a few years ago was supposed to be fun to drive but in my opinion it was a death trap and nothing more.
So my quandry is do I want to end up in prison driving my Scud or in a ditch driving an icon. Hobson's choice I know but I think I'll take my chances with the law

[Robbo66]

sone said:

I like my cars very shiny and as new as possible, I've been down the classic/iconic route before and its not a place I'll return.
A 930 Turbot Porsche I had a few years ago was supposed to be fun to drive but in my opinion it was a death trap and nothing more.
So my quandry is do I want to end up in prison driving my Scud or in a ditch driving an icon. Hobson's choice I know but I think I'll take my chances with the law

There's classics and there are classics.

[PHOENIXUK]

Robbo66 said:

There's classics and there are classics.

There are slippers then there are M&S slippers....

[sone]

Robbo66 said:

sone said:

I like my cars very shiny and as new as possible, I've been down the classic/iconic route before and its not a place I'll return.
A 930 Turbot Porsche I had a few years ago was supposed to be fun to drive but in my opinion it was a death trap and nothing more.
So my quandry is do I want to end up in prison driving my Scud or in a ditch driving an icon. Hobson's choice I know but I think I'll take my chances with the law

There's classics and there are classics.

Appreciated, I had a 360 CS that was a fantastic classic but that's about as classic as I get.
Each to their own and the worlds a better place for it!