McLaren 12c not selling?
Discussion
gunner said:
For what it's worth the Mac is the best car I've ever had.Owned it from new and adore it.Don't like losing money but those who buy cars like this to eye the depreciation curve surely miss the point.Love the 458 too and owned two but it's the Mac every time for me.As for 458 Spider can pick used up for under list,they are below list bid in the trade and I've had two dealers offer me new/physical cars.I'm sure it's epic too,just not into convertibles personally.The economy impacts everything,and super cars should be no different (quite the opposite in fact) but nobody in their right mind worries about that when they're driving the damn thing.Eyeballing the classifieds isn't nearly as much fun..If you've not driven one I heartily recommend a drive in the Mac if only to decide for yourself it's not for you.I was blown away,but I'm sure it's not for everyone which is what makes these threads fun...
Ps not had upgrades to my Mac yet...in no hurry tbh,enjoying it too much as is.
You'll like the upgrade I reckon....Not sure I am necessarily as much a fan as chrism355 about the blip on downshifting but overall as a package, it has made a bloody good car even faster (and it was already blisteringly quick) and there are a few fairly neat added touches as I am sure you will already have known about.Ps not had upgrades to my Mac yet...in no hurry tbh,enjoying it too much as is.
Loosing money on new stuff is inevitable these days I think we lived in a bit of a bubble previously where demand outstripped the carefully managed and choreographed supply
Production economies of scale mean the manufacturers must keep producing at a certain rate to make a profit but that means just a few cars too many available for immediate delivery means dealers start discounting as they want the deal
Obviously this in turn hits residuals of year old used cars which need to be a good deal cheaper than a new one that you choose the bits you want and get the "new experience"
Slightly sideways but look at SLS a lovely piece of kit that many thought would fetch list + only to slide rapidly when they were pumped out at a rapid rate only to end up in non franchise dealers who after holding for too long slashed them to turn back into cash with the subsequent negative effect on RV's. Still a stunning proposition IMHO
If you can live with older less state of the art stuff and hate depreciation as much as I do as I always think what I could have done with the money buy a Challenge Stradalle or a Scud or a GT3 RS which are looking a lot of car for the money
Much as I like the 12C I cannot see it firming up any time soon and think the 2 cars 458 and 12C are attached at the hip if the choice is wether to buy either New it will be the same for a Used decision so if 458's keeps getting more affordable 12C's have to be dare I say even cheaper.
Production economies of scale mean the manufacturers must keep producing at a certain rate to make a profit but that means just a few cars too many available for immediate delivery means dealers start discounting as they want the deal
Obviously this in turn hits residuals of year old used cars which need to be a good deal cheaper than a new one that you choose the bits you want and get the "new experience"
Slightly sideways but look at SLS a lovely piece of kit that many thought would fetch list + only to slide rapidly when they were pumped out at a rapid rate only to end up in non franchise dealers who after holding for too long slashed them to turn back into cash with the subsequent negative effect on RV's. Still a stunning proposition IMHO
If you can live with older less state of the art stuff and hate depreciation as much as I do as I always think what I could have done with the money buy a Challenge Stradalle or a Scud or a GT3 RS which are looking a lot of car for the money
Much as I like the 12C I cannot see it firming up any time soon and think the 2 cars 458 and 12C are attached at the hip if the choice is wether to buy either New it will be the same for a Used decision so if 458's keeps getting more affordable 12C's have to be dare I say even cheaper.
There are only 18 mp4s for sale on pistonheads - the cheapest is £149k. when new some only cost their owner £180k. Yes there has been a loss, but not exactly the end of the world, in view of the negative press the car got and the economic storm that 2012 has turned into. Going forward, coupe production has all but ceased due to the spyder (minimum price with some spec £220k), so who knows what will happen.....but my view is that they will start to look like a bargain, especially if there are some more power upgrades.
If you take out the early problem cars( that should now be sorted )there are actually only maybe a dozen or so. 12C for sale. This against over 150 , so I am told 458s.
Future sales at least here in the UK of new 458s will be difficult. Try and get an trade bid on a like for like 458,….. IMHO
The running costs of a 12C over 8k miles and 10 months are the same as a 997tt. Tyres, CCB brakes, Fuel, ect
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Future sales at least here in the UK of new 458s will be difficult. Try and get an trade bid on a like for like 458,….. IMHO
The running costs of a 12C over 8k miles and 10 months are the same as a 997tt. Tyres, CCB brakes, Fuel, ect
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Edited by APOLO1 on Monday 31st December 08:32
I'm no Ferrari basher, have owned 3 and remain a paid up FOC member but I can truly say my Mar 2012 12C is the first car I plan to keep for the long term - and i have yet to have the upgrade to 2013 spec. Depreciation on any car like the 12C isn't going to be good and in the current climate i think the first year isn't a surprise. As Mclaren develop their approved used scheme I think things will stabilise and at 150 or so I think they offer phenomenal value and a rarity and exclusiveness factor very different to Ferrari.
TP321 said:
There are only 18 mp4s for sale on pistonheads - the cheapest is £149k. when new some only cost their owner £180k. Yes there has been a loss, but not exactly the end of the world, in view of the negative press the car got and the economic storm that 2012 has turned into. Going forward, coupe production has all but ceased due to the spyder (minimum price with some spec £220k), so who knows what will happen.....but my view is that they will start to look like a bargain, especially if there are some more power upgrades.
You see I see the depreciation different as the dark graphite grey one lists at just shy of 220k. It is now advertised at 149k but I bet you can get that car today for 144k. To me losing 76k within a year is astonishing. The silver blue one at mclaren London lists at just shy of 210k (I believe the paint choice is silly money as an extra) and again will have lost 65k.
It doesn't matter what they are advertised at as this means nothing. If they are not selling then the are not worth the price being advertised at.
There is one on PH at 205k!!!! The seller needs to have a look at what other dealers are doing as he is going to have his car for a long time.
http://classifieds.pistonheads.com/classifieds/use...
jandrews said:
I'm no Ferrari basher, have owned 3 and remain a paid up FOC member but I can truly say my Mar 2012 12C is the first car I plan to keep for the long term - and i have yet to have the upgrade to 2013 spec. Depreciation on any car like the 12C isn't going to be good and in the current climate i think the first year isn't a surprise. As Mclaren develop their approved used scheme I think things will stabilise and at 150 or so I think they offer phenomenal value and a rarity and exclusiveness factor very different to Ferrari.
I agree that now at the 150k mark they offer good value. Out of interest I phoned a regular car dealer I deal with this morning and asked him if he would be interested in my car (test to see depreciation). I am quite chuffed that he bid me 6k below what I paid 3 months ago. This 6k is really only the dealer mark up, so in reality my car has stabilised. I will have to now say I'm not selling it as if I know him he is already trying to place it lol.
Obviously 6k over 3 months is still a big hit but this is a good acid test to show the stability of the ferrari if macca applied the same ideas as ferrari they would be a. English ferrari. There is no doubting the quality of the product and this thread is not about ferrari vs mclaren, just an discussion of what mclaren need to do to stop there products being falling stones.
APOLO1 said:
The running costs of a 12C over 8k miles and 10 months are the same as a 997tt. Tyres, CCB brakes, Fuel, ect
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Bit of a weird running period time. A Bugatti Veyron wouldnt be much more over 10 months or 8k miles lol. [
Edited by APOLO1 on Monday 31st December 08:32
Normally people compare running costs for 3 years. IMHO I think you know that this statement is manipulated in favour of mclaren ownership.
Porsche are one, if not the lowest running cost cars in the supercar bracket. Their service is only 500 and I believe are variable servicing intervals. The macca I was told was 1200 to 1800 and it was every 12 months.
baileyconstruct said:
You see I see the depreciation different as the dark graphite grey one lists at just shy of 220k. It is now advertised at 149k but I bet you can get that car today for 144k. To me losing 76k within a year is astonishing.
The silver blue one at mclaren London lists at just shy of 210k (I believe the paint choice is silly money as an extra) and again will have lost 65k.
It doesn't matter what they are advertised at as this means nothing. If they are not selling then the are not worth the price being advertised at.
There is one on PH at 205k!!!! The seller needs to have a look at what other dealers are doing as he is going to have his car for a long time.
http://classifieds.pistonheads.com/classifieds/use...
But just like any car, some options just make the car nicer but add little value, some individualize the car to much, look at the graphite car with red / black interior, the first owner thought it looked the dogs others would shy away, just like Ferrari with re sale red with magnolia hide, put a red hide in the same car, as some have done and see how fast it sells, the car for 205K has every carbon extra you could add, the Silver blue is quite basic no carbon. I dont see £210 as list dont forget Iris was free on early cars . The silver blue one at mclaren London lists at just shy of 210k (I believe the paint choice is silly money as an extra) and again will have lost 65k.
It doesn't matter what they are advertised at as this means nothing. If they are not selling then the are not worth the price being advertised at.
There is one on PH at 205k!!!! The seller needs to have a look at what other dealers are doing as he is going to have his car for a long time.
http://classifieds.pistonheads.com/classifieds/use...
Another thing that makes these cars look bargains is the base price of the car has been increased since October
As set out in as previous post, the 458 and 12c are some what joined at present. Deprecation % wise, from a reliability point of view, performance ECT the 12c, MY13 is clearly the better car.
I know of several 458s that’s have achieved actual sale prices in line with the % reduction in price of the 12c,
The out look residual wise for the 458 is dire, in the short to medium term, until the massive over supply is taken up….FACT.
I know of several 458s that’s have achieved actual sale prices in line with the % reduction in price of the 12c,
The out look residual wise for the 458 is dire, in the short to medium term, until the massive over supply is taken up….FACT.
The orange model advertised at £205k, has £45k of extras- how much of that are you ever going to get back at resale time?
I realise no one is ever going to buy a new 458 or 12c with no options but it seems mostly to depend on buyers taste and depth of pockets and unlikely to ever be recovered
I realise no one is ever going to buy a new 458 or 12c with no options but it seems mostly to depend on buyers taste and depth of pockets and unlikely to ever be recovered
Chrism355 said:
But just like any car, some options just make the car nicer but add little value, some individualize the car to much, look at the graphite car with red / black interior, the first owner thought it looked the dogs others would shy away, just like Ferrari with re sale red with magnolia hide, put a red hide in the same car, as some have done and see how fast it sells, the car for 205K has every carbon extra you could add, the Silver blue is quite basic no carbon. I dont see £210 as list dont forget Iris was free on early cars .
Another thing that makes these cars look bargains is the base price of the car has been increased since October
You see I thought that silver blue one had a nice spec and just right. I'm not a fan of all this carbon inside stuff tbh. Another thing that makes these cars look bargains is the base price of the car has been increased since October
I think the graphite grey one off putting feature is its red interior. It is not as stark in real life but as you have said, is off putting to some ( I was one lol)
ianbr said:
The orange model advertised at £205k, has £45k of extras- how much of that are you ever going to get back at resale time?
I realise no one is ever going to buy a new 458 or 12c with no options but it seems mostly to depend on buyers taste and depth of pockets and unlikely to ever be recovered
In line with all the others advertised, I would say that car should be advertised a 160k to 165k. I would stil place a bet with PaddyPower that it will still not sell for that and would probably sell for 155k circa. I realise no one is ever going to buy a new 458 or 12c with no options but it seems mostly to depend on buyers taste and depth of pockets and unlikely to ever be recovered
These cars need to be spec'd but with the right stuff. For example have you seen a 458 with the base spec wheels? IMHO these are horrible. Ferrari do this to force you somewhat to have the 4k wheel upgrade. I believe the mclaren standard wheels are not particularly nice either.
Cheib said:
The relatively small numbers made will definitely count in 12C's favour. Long term the biggest issue might be how good the Spider is supposed to be!
I watched a YouTube discovery channel thing about the mclaren and they have had a new plant built at Woking for production of 80 cars per week. This needs to be achieved to pay for the state of the art factory and r&d. baileyconstruct said:
You see I see the depreciation different as the dark graphite grey one lists at just shy of 220k. It is now advertised at 149k but I bet you can get that car today for 144k. To me losing 76k within a year is astonishing.
What's the value of that car if you were trading it in? £134k I would guess based on your numbers? That's the real value, what someone would pay you for it. So your depreciation would be £86k!I've no issue either way, and agree/appreciate both these cars (458 & MP12) will depreciate, and it appears at roughly the same rate.
Where I do think there is a difference is that Ferraris have a dampening effect by virtue of their branding (as road cars). Due to this and their numbers they won't plunge as quick as maybe a McLaren on a bad review or a bit of concern over quality, but they won't rise as high due to higher numbers. I haven't really expressed myself too eloquently but to summarise 458 prices a bit more stable, MP12 a tad more volatile; both in the same ballpark?
Boshly said:
What's the value of that car if you were trading it in? £134k I would guess based on your numbers? That's the real value, what someone would pay you for it. So your depreciation would be £86k!
I've no issue either way, and agree/appreciate both these cars (458 & MP12) will depreciate, and it appears at roughly the same rate.
Where I do think there is a difference is that Ferraris have a dampening effect by virtue of their branding (as road cars). Due to this and their numbers they won't plunge as quick as maybe a McLaren on a bad review or a bit of concern over quality, but they won't rise as high due to higher numbers. I haven't really expressed myself too eloquently but to summarise 458 prices a bit more stable, MP12 a tad more volatile; both in the same ballpark?
Today I would agree. However both them London cars I think the dealers will lose. They have had for 6 months and a bet they had for 155k. I've no issue either way, and agree/appreciate both these cars (458 & MP12) will depreciate, and it appears at roughly the same rate.
Where I do think there is a difference is that Ferraris have a dampening effect by virtue of their branding (as road cars). Due to this and their numbers they won't plunge as quick as maybe a McLaren on a bad review or a bit of concern over quality, but they won't rise as high due to higher numbers. I haven't really expressed myself too eloquently but to summarise 458 prices a bit more stable, MP12 a tad more volatile; both in the same ballpark?
The graypauls one is SOR so only the owner will lose
I just spoke to mclaren London and the grey car does not have a sports exhaust but can be retro fit (part of a deal maybe?), and the HS front end is an eye-watering £29k! I don't mind the red interior, as it is a super car after all, and may take a look later in the week. The more I read about the 12c, and having driven one, the more interested I become. The styling is not to everyone's taste but is much less shouty than the 458 and I prefer a little more subtlety (sports exhaust is allowed though ;-) )
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