F430 Market Watch
Discussion
jtremlett said:
irst listed December last year at £119,990. Reduced to £114,990 at end of April.
Not especially relevant, but possibly of mild interest, the same car was for sale at Meridien in April 2013 for £94,995 then £92,995 (4k miles) and in May 2014 at Dick Lovett for £95,990, reduced to £92,990 in June 2014 (5,860 miles).
Jonathan
Good info and clearly shows how the market is now correcting the previous ridiculous gains. My £100k offer does not seem unreasonable but with a £20 - £25k spread it could be close to what they paid for it. They wont like making a loss on the car but may let it go at break even if they have had it 9 months and the market is going downhill faster than Franz Klammer Not especially relevant, but possibly of mild interest, the same car was for sale at Meridien in April 2013 for £94,995 then £92,995 (4k miles) and in May 2014 at Dick Lovett for £95,990, reduced to £92,990 in June 2014 (5,860 miles).
Jonathan
RamboLambo said:
jtremlett said:
irst listed December last year at £119,990. Reduced to £114,990 at end of April.
Not especially relevant, but possibly of mild interest, the same car was for sale at Meridien in April 2013 for £94,995 then £92,995 (4k miles) and in May 2014 at Dick Lovett for £95,990, reduced to £92,990 in June 2014 (5,860 miles).
Jonathan
Good info and clearly shows how the market is now correcting the previous ridiculous gains. My £100k offer does not seem unreasonable but with a £20 - £25k spread it could be close to what they paid for it. They wont like making a loss on the car but may let it go at break even if they have had it 9 months and the market is going downhill faster than Franz Klammer Not especially relevant, but possibly of mild interest, the same car was for sale at Meridien in April 2013 for £94,995 then £92,995 (4k miles) and in May 2014 at Dick Lovett for £95,990, reduced to £92,990 in June 2014 (5,860 miles).
Jonathan
cymario said:
Thank you. The dealer has given me the wear readings for the brakes at 8% and the clutch at 17%.
Be careful the wear 'readings' are in fact 'calculations' of what the wear is expected to be, based on the usage the car has had. It is not an accurate measure.When I bought my Scud it had (very fortunately) recently had a full service and health check at Dick Lovetts. The 'car' said brake wear was 10% (i.e. 90% remaining), but the health check inspection said discs were breaking up on the inner faces.
As part of my purchase agreement the car had new discs fitted and the dealer used an Indy who didn't re-set the wear indicator. The result being that the 'car' still says 10% brake wear but has new discs...
cymario said:
Thank you very much for the advice. Are there any other common faults that I should ask them to confirm that are not present on this car?
Are you happy with your car, what did you get?
I got an 2009 F430 coupe, black with black leather. Being a later car it came with ceramics, It also has scudaria shields, electric seats, flip out nav. Parking sensors would have been nice. But I will probably get a camera installed.Are you happy with your car, what did you get?
I love the car, it puts a smile on my face everytime I drive it and I get butterflies when I'm on the way to collect it from the storage. It really is a special car and that exhaust note when the valves open....
There were a few issues with wheel sensors and flashing dash board lights but they were fixed under good will, I think the car had sat on the forecourt for a while and these cars don't seem to like to sit.
Having collected it first week of December I drove it in wet mode fairly carefully for a few months and not I try to save my miles for decent weather. I've now done about 3000 miles and have loved every one.
One thing I would highly recommend is skid pads on the front bumper underside from somewhere like hill engineering. I drive my car as it's supposed to be driven (hence wanting black and coupe) but the country roads around oxon/berks are bad and I've bottomed out once or twice. This will also prevent damage on speed bumps and steep inclines.
This is my first supercar (I had an M235i before) so buying from a main dealer with a 2 year warranty was essential.
Other things to look out for can be found on aldous' website however, the main things I looked for wear brake wear, clutch wear, chunks out of the disc. Tyre tread, services at correct intervals, rear scud shields (some are stickers).
Underside front bumper scratches. Manifolds can be an issue too as I'm sure you're aware.
Happy to discuss over the phone if you would like!
I've also got a fantastic finance guy who offered a better package that ferrari.
Apologies for the late update but I have paying customers that get a higher priority.
For the latest in 360 prices please head over here.
Asking prices have increased a little more which is to be expected with the summer weather. The index is now at it's highest level, 131.56, up 0.54% over the last month.
However higher asking prices don't translate into higher transaction prices. I would like to call out a car I bought on behalf of a client a couple of weeks ago - it was an F1 coupe in a desirable colour combination with just 13k miles. I inspected the car, verified the mileage and that it was still wearing its original paint - we bought it for £81k. The owner subsequently spent £2k with me getting it perfect. It's not often I agree with Gary but to pay over £100k for a 430 F1 is madness right now.
For the latest in 360 prices please head over here.
Asking prices have increased a little more which is to be expected with the summer weather. The index is now at it's highest level, 131.56, up 0.54% over the last month.
However higher asking prices don't translate into higher transaction prices. I would like to call out a car I bought on behalf of a client a couple of weeks ago - it was an F1 coupe in a desirable colour combination with just 13k miles. I inspected the car, verified the mileage and that it was still wearing its original paint - we bought it for £81k. The owner subsequently spent £2k with me getting it perfect. It's not often I agree with Gary but to pay over £100k for a 430 F1 is madness right now.
Voicey sums it up very nicely, and not talking about the value of 430s in particular I think values are tied to the bigger picture . Cheap money and growing economy = higher prices.
but we have a slowing economy, Brexit could be a disaster (I hope not) and ifinterest rates go up to protect the pound (anyone remember the 15% mortgage ) to say 4 or 5% , mortgages go up, house prices go down and so do the value of cars ,
so, imho whatever people ask for price wise is up to them - but there is huge risk to the downside for any buyer , and that's why sales are stalling.
but we have a slowing economy, Brexit could be a disaster (I hope not) and ifinterest rates go up to protect the pound (anyone remember the 15% mortgage ) to say 4 or 5% , mortgages go up, house prices go down and so do the value of cars ,
so, imho whatever people ask for price wise is up to them - but there is huge risk to the downside for any buyer , and that's why sales are stalling.
RamboLambo said:
the market is going downhill faster than Franz Klammer
I dont know whether you are right but certainly you are nearer right now than you have been over the last couple of years. We are slowing down economically and there is plenty of evidence of asset prices weakening for example with houses. My guess is that the Ferrari market is a bit like the house market in that in the early stages of a decline, sellers refuse to accept lower prices so you end up with lots of cars for sale at high prices but far fewer being sold and then usually only the lower priced ones. Certainly the market for everyday cars has fallen sharply.It will be interesting to see what happens to Ferrari prices now that so many are bought on finance. If the economy does cool down with brexit, the finance issue is likely to bring about some forced sales. My guess is that some owners will already be wondering about just that situation and acting early.
Casual chat with Indies says that every car being sold is being sold at a slightly lower price than the one before. Certainly I cannot see the sense in ordinary 355 and 328 cars above £100k.
mwstewart said:
The slow started in Q1 2016 - the signs were there. Everything will be affected. I get the impression our Rambo thinks it's just Ferrari!
Not at all, its the entire market and they are all inter connected but some brands haven't had the same meteoric gains and therefore wont have the same monstrous adjustments. Ferrari is by far the strongest supercar brand and you pay for that. My point is that these cars seem overpriced relative to other marques IMHO and undoubtedly the tide has changed to other brandsI think what will support the used Ferrari market is new prices.
812 is starting around £260k but most will be getting on for £300k.
488 is £180k but again most are well north of £200k with a modest spec.
If a big gap appears between 488 and 458 then people will be put off new. Its a complex situation but nothing new I guess.
812 is starting around £260k but most will be getting on for £300k.
488 is £180k but again most are well north of £200k with a modest spec.
If a big gap appears between 488 and 458 then people will be put off new. Its a complex situation but nothing new I guess.
RamboLambo said:
mwstewart said:
The slow started in Q1 2016 - the signs were there. Everything will be affected. I get the impression our Rambo thinks it's just Ferrari!
Not at all, its the entire market and they are all inter connected but some brands haven't had the same meteoric gains and therefore wont have the same monstrous adjustments. Ferrari is by far the strongest supercar brand and you pay for that. My point is that these cars seem overpriced relative to other marques IMHO and undoubtedly the tide has changed to other brandsI think what you are expecting is a shift in perception of McLaren to equalise prices vs Ferrari in the existing market. That would have happened by now in an already buoyant - if over inflated - market.
The future and new models is something different as I think Ferrari are behind the game - but that's a product factor not an economic one and it will take a few more years yet to materialise i.e. it's not related to the wider economic downturn, the effects of which we are discussing here.
On the whole, the UK / US classic and supercar markets have been drifting sideways and taking a pause for the past ~2 years.
The market overall is clearly taking a breather and has a "wait and see" approach.
If the supercar / classic market does fall, the decline will not be as big or prolonged as many think or hope.
Classics and supercars are now an incredibly generous tax-lite investment in the UK.
The minute there are any dips, provided there is no Trumpian WW3, buyers will come back in and support prices.
Supercars are the new property
The market overall is clearly taking a breather and has a "wait and see" approach.
If the supercar / classic market does fall, the decline will not be as big or prolonged as many think or hope.
Classics and supercars are now an incredibly generous tax-lite investment in the UK.
The minute there are any dips, provided there is no Trumpian WW3, buyers will come back in and support prices.
Supercars are the new property
When a market segment softens the money moves into the established brands. Ever heard the expression of no one ever being fired for buying IBM? The same applies to any of the alternative asset markets. You can protest all you want but Ferrari is the premium brand in this market, it attracts the highest prices and the most attention.
While many of us on PH are genuine enthusiasts, most of the buyers in this segment are not, they are investors looking for a safe place to spread some money to. Trust me, they are not buying McLarens unless it's an F1 or maybe a P1 and there are not many of them about. They are buying Ferraris and Bizarinis and Lambos, Porsches from the 70s and even older Mercs. They are not buying on finance either. Speculators and flippers may finance but they move around so quickly that there presence has already been factored in to the market. Those enthusiast owners who purchase on finance are the most exposed and can have the greatest impact.
So what happens in a slowing luxury asset market? Investors dig in for the long term, speculators de-risk by trading volatile stock (read new brands) for cash or retreat to the safe havens, and those on finance are forced to exit, most often at a loss. So which brand do you think has the most financed fleet? Take a look through the Supercar forum to see where finance questions appear most often. Yup, McLaren.
Now I like McLaren, I think it's an amazing success story and has many chapters to come, but when people argue that it is already a more resilient brand than Porsche or Ferrari then I feel compelled to provide an alternative view. It's quite simply wrong and bordering on irresponsible. Each to our own but if we are due a market correction, and I don't think we are (at least at this level of the market where there are so many new buyers) then it's far more likely that the emerging brands will take the bulk of the hit.
While many of us on PH are genuine enthusiasts, most of the buyers in this segment are not, they are investors looking for a safe place to spread some money to. Trust me, they are not buying McLarens unless it's an F1 or maybe a P1 and there are not many of them about. They are buying Ferraris and Bizarinis and Lambos, Porsches from the 70s and even older Mercs. They are not buying on finance either. Speculators and flippers may finance but they move around so quickly that there presence has already been factored in to the market. Those enthusiast owners who purchase on finance are the most exposed and can have the greatest impact.
So what happens in a slowing luxury asset market? Investors dig in for the long term, speculators de-risk by trading volatile stock (read new brands) for cash or retreat to the safe havens, and those on finance are forced to exit, most often at a loss. So which brand do you think has the most financed fleet? Take a look through the Supercar forum to see where finance questions appear most often. Yup, McLaren.
Now I like McLaren, I think it's an amazing success story and has many chapters to come, but when people argue that it is already a more resilient brand than Porsche or Ferrari then I feel compelled to provide an alternative view. It's quite simply wrong and bordering on irresponsible. Each to our own but if we are due a market correction, and I don't think we are (at least at this level of the market where there are so many new buyers) then it's far more likely that the emerging brands will take the bulk of the hit.
Edited by anonymous-user on Thursday 24th August 23:21
My two penneth as a counterbalance to all the 'bears', and that is that RHD cars have a smaller market than LHD, but RHD have been at a premium for a long time now (supposedly as part of the numbers produced game). The UK economy is struggling, but the LHD world is doing pretty well, especially Europe. On that basis, I think we see a strong compression of LHD/RHD gap, but that ultimately, the LHD market will provide support, and prevent the 'crash' that people are suggesting. Another consideration is GBP/EUR, which has fallen from above 1.3000 to 1.0900 and that means that a LHD car priced at EUR 100,000 has risen in GBP terms from a GBP 77,000 to GBP 91,000 without European LHD car prices moving. If GBP were to keep falling then this would be natural support eventually for RHD vehicles.
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