F430 Market Watch
Discussion
Yipper said:
Folk have been saying cars are "too fast" for decades. But the stopping and handling power always improve to make them ever more usable. Hybrids or full electrics are going to be hitting 0-60mph in 1-2secs in 3 to 5 years and anything not getting to 60 in 3secs or less will soon feel very pedestrian.
Sure, if driving fast in a straight line is your thing. 
RamboLambo said:
Probably gone downhill..... 
bit like prices and this government then ! ..... 
I bet Labour cannot believe their luck, nothing like a hard left government to raise interest rates and tax... thereby reducing house prices , and for the lucky few with cash... the price of Ferraris .
lol
Sorry guys. I've been flat out at the workshop and have only just had time to scribble together a quick update.
F430 asking prices have risen a little over the last month, up 0.44%. This was also mirrored in the 360 market. Things are still pretty tough out there and for the 430 in particular, we are seeing very little buying interest. We have done a few 360 deals, all of which were off-market private treaty transactions (including a 360 that was sold to a youtuber). We also have clients that have cash to spend and are looking to drive deep discounts from distressed vendors.
We also have the first interest rate rise in over tens years in the mix. Although a 0.5% base rate isn't anything to shout about, higher interest rates may further reduce interest in investing in supercars.
F430 asking prices have risen a little over the last month, up 0.44%. This was also mirrored in the 360 market. Things are still pretty tough out there and for the 430 in particular, we are seeing very little buying interest. We have done a few 360 deals, all of which were off-market private treaty transactions (including a 360 that was sold to a youtuber). We also have clients that have cash to spend and are looking to drive deep discounts from distressed vendors.
We also have the first interest rate rise in over tens years in the mix. Although a 0.5% base rate isn't anything to shout about, higher interest rates may further reduce interest in investing in supercars.
This may have been covered before, all this excellent data looks to be based on asking prices rather than actual sale prices. If this data is to relevant to the real-world, should there not also be a column showing 'sold' prices (from auctions and dealers alike) which is more reflective of what people are prepared to pay.
At the recent Silverstone Auction at the NEC for example, there were no F430's but a nice silver F1 360 spider was snapped up for £66k where a 360cs (also silver) remained unsold and didn't meet it's reserve. If the OP has cash buyers ready to buy cars at the 'right' level, is the focus on 'asking price' not distorting the real state of the market?
Cars only being worth what somebody is prepared to pay etc...
At the recent Silverstone Auction at the NEC for example, there were no F430's but a nice silver F1 360 spider was snapped up for £66k where a 360cs (also silver) remained unsold and didn't meet it's reserve. If the OP has cash buyers ready to buy cars at the 'right' level, is the focus on 'asking price' not distorting the real state of the market?
Cars only being worth what somebody is prepared to pay etc...
The Surveyor said:
This may have been covered before, all this excellent data looks to be based on asking prices rather than actual sale prices. If this data is to relevant to the real-world, should there not also be a column showing 'sold' prices (from auctions and dealers alike) which is more reflective of what people are prepared to pay.
At the recent Silverstone Auction at the NEC for example, there were no F430's but a nice silver F1 360 spider was snapped up for £66k where a 360cs (also silver) remained unsold and didn't meet it's reserve. If the OP has cash buyers ready to buy cars at the 'right' level, is the focus on 'asking price' not distorting the real state of the market?
Cars only being worth what somebody is prepared to pay etc...
I think the answer to that is fairly obvious no?At the recent Silverstone Auction at the NEC for example, there were no F430's but a nice silver F1 360 spider was snapped up for £66k where a 360cs (also silver) remained unsold and didn't meet it's reserve. If the OP has cash buyers ready to buy cars at the 'right' level, is the focus on 'asking price' not distorting the real state of the market?
Cars only being worth what somebody is prepared to pay etc...
How is anyone supposed to track 'sold' prices...I would think 'asking prices' give a decent indication of whether values are on the increase or decrease, despite what they actually sold for.
Craigwww said:
I think the answer to that is fairly obvious no?
How is anyone supposed to track 'sold' prices...I would think 'asking prices' give a decent indication of whether values are on the increase or decrease, despite what they actually sold for.
Asking prices are just too open to manipulation for them to have any real credibility for the state of the market, especially the Ferrari market IMHO. It costs very little to advertise a car or put it on SOR in a dealer at a robust price hoping to inflate a suppressed market, or on the "i'll only sell it for X" basis, and it all just distorts the true picture. If you are going to use 'asking price' as a barometer, it would be sensible to include a measure of how long the car has been on the market for, or if it's a new listing IMHO. How is anyone supposed to track 'sold' prices...I would think 'asking prices' give a decent indication of whether values are on the increase or decrease, despite what they actually sold for.
The OP is a dealer so has access to 'sale' prices, every auction house publishes it's results so that too can be added into the raw figures which would show a much more realistic picture of how the market naturally softens and swells through the seasons and in line with the wider economy.
One might say auction sold prices are not an indicator of sold dealer prices..
After all one car might be ready to go the next car on the block might need £20k spending on it in prep.
With for sale prices you might get the odd spike but the sample sizes are large and overall trend observed for a long period.
Looking at one car sold price at auction vs 80 cars for sale over a few years is 2 different things. IMHO.
After all one car might be ready to go the next car on the block might need £20k spending on it in prep.
With for sale prices you might get the odd spike but the sample sizes are large and overall trend observed for a long period.
Looking at one car sold price at auction vs 80 cars for sale over a few years is 2 different things. IMHO.
red_slr said:
One might say auction sold prices are not an indicator of sold dealer prices..
After all one car might be ready to go the next car on the block might need £20k spending on it in prep.
With for sale prices you might get the odd spike but the sample sizes are large and overall trend observed for a long period.
Looking at one car sold price at auction vs 80 cars for sale over a few years is 2 different things. IMHO.
I agree, but including actual 'sale' data is an undisputable measure of what the cars are worth to the market at any given time.After all one car might be ready to go the next car on the block might need £20k spending on it in prep.
With for sale prices you might get the odd spike but the sample sizes are large and overall trend observed for a long period.
Looking at one car sold price at auction vs 80 cars for sale over a few years is 2 different things. IMHO.
The OP spends an awful lot of time to present a very detailed picture of the market and concludes that prices have risen by 0.44%. Without any actual sale prices that percentage rise is both meaningless, and potentially misleading.
Yes, people may be asking on average 0.44% (!) more for their cars, but for example, if fewer are selling, or those that do sell are sold at much lower prices to the people waiting with cash for cheaper cars, then the trend shown by these statistics is simply wrong.
The Surveyor said:
The OP spends an awful lot of time to present a very detailed picture of the market and concludes that prices have risen by 0.44%. Without any actual sale prices that percentage rise is both meaningless, and potentially misleading.
The rest of us appreciate Voicey's monthly estimates of F430 market values and are grateful to him for spending his valuable time doing so.We understand it's not a perfect measure so you're rather stating the obvious.
What do you have to offer?
red_duke said:
The rest of us appreciate Voicey's monthly estimates of F430 market values and are grateful to him for spending his valuable time doing so.
We understand it's not a perfect measure so you're rather stating the obvious.
What do you have to offer?
exactly! the title of this thread is "Market Watch", not "exactly what every 430 has ever sold for" We understand it's not a perfect measure so you're rather stating the obvious.
What do you have to offer?
also trying to gauge the market by a few "distressed" sales doesn't offer much insight anyway.As for some facts, i've had more interest in my car in the last few months than at any time its been for sale, its sold for very close to the "asking price"... i would hazard a guess very few cars (991.2 GT3's aside lol) sell for the exact asking price
Sold prices are always going to be better,
However Voicey puts a lot of time and effort into this market watch, and I do appreciate it as it shows a trend and I am very grateful he puts the time and effort in.
I look at this thread every month as you never know, I might even be tempted to buy another 430 (it would be my 3rd).
However Voicey puts a lot of time and effort into this market watch, and I do appreciate it as it shows a trend and I am very grateful he puts the time and effort in.
I look at this thread every month as you never know, I might even be tempted to buy another 430 (it would be my 3rd).
I caught sight of these posts during the day and had started to plan out a witty rebuke. Now I'm home and after a day spent fighting a 360 engine I'm completely frazzled. I really don't have the time to do these updates and if they're not what people are looking for then perhaps it's time to knock it all on the head.
I will publish for numbers for Decemeber and then look forward to reading the new 2018 F430 market watch based on auction sale prices.
I will publish for numbers for Decemeber and then look forward to reading the new 2018 F430 market watch based on auction sale prices.
Hi Voicey
I am sorry you are feeling that way, I for one have always read your information with interest.
If you choose not to continue it would be very understandable but I think that would also be a shame, but thank you for all the efforts you have put in collecting and sharing this.
Cheers
I am sorry you are feeling that way, I for one have always read your information with interest.
If you choose not to continue it would be very understandable but I think that would also be a shame, but thank you for all the efforts you have put in collecting and sharing this.
Cheers
The Surveyor said:
red_slr said:
One might say auction sold prices are not an indicator of sold dealer prices..
After all one car might be ready to go the next car on the block might need £20k spending on it in prep.
With for sale prices you might get the odd spike but the sample sizes are large and overall trend observed for a long period.
Looking at one car sold price at auction vs 80 cars for sale over a few years is 2 different things. IMHO.
I agree, but including actual 'sale' data is an undisputable measure of what the cars are worth to the market at any given time.After all one car might be ready to go the next car on the block might need £20k spending on it in prep.
With for sale prices you might get the odd spike but the sample sizes are large and overall trend observed for a long period.
Looking at one car sold price at auction vs 80 cars for sale over a few years is 2 different things. IMHO.
The OP spends an awful lot of time to present a very detailed picture of the market and concludes that prices have risen by 0.44%. Without any actual sale prices that percentage rise is both meaningless, and potentially misleading.
Yes, people may be asking on average 0.44% (!) more for their cars, but for example, if fewer are selling, or those that do sell are sold at much lower prices to the people waiting with cash for cheaper cars, then the trend shown by these statistics is simply wrong.
How would Voicey include sold data without effectively telling the world what clients have paid for their cars? Is that how a dealer should operate, by publishing what customers pay? I'm thinking that would put buyers off.
Equally, how would he get data of other prices achieved by other dealers?
As above, auction values are meaningless without context of condition of the car, prices of works required to bring it up to standard etc. Dealers would also be adding VAT and a profit margin. Private buyers picking up Ferraris at auction are braver than most.
The data is good, interesting and valuable to enthusiasts, dreamers, buyers and sellers alike. You can use it how you see fit. If you don't like it, then there are options open to you.
The Surveyor said:
red_slr said:
One might say auction sold prices are not an indicator of sold dealer prices..
After all one car might be ready to go the next car on the block might need £20k spending on it in prep.
With for sale prices you might get the odd spike but the sample sizes are large and overall trend observed for a long period.
Looking at one car sold price at auction vs 80 cars for sale over a few years is 2 different things. IMHO.
I agree, but including actual 'sale' data is an undisputable measure of what the cars are worth to the market at any given time.After all one car might be ready to go the next car on the block might need £20k spending on it in prep.
With for sale prices you might get the odd spike but the sample sizes are large and overall trend observed for a long period.
Looking at one car sold price at auction vs 80 cars for sale over a few years is 2 different things. IMHO.
The OP spends an awful lot of time to present a very detailed picture of the market and concludes that prices have risen by 0.44%. Without any actual sale prices that percentage rise is both meaningless, and potentially misleading.
Yes, people may be asking on average 0.44% (!) more for their cars, but for example, if fewer are selling, or those that do sell are sold at much lower prices to the people waiting with cash for cheaper cars, then the trend shown by these statistics is simply wrong.
Asking price is a widely recognized car-industry metric, and has been since the 19th century.
Glass's Guide has made millions from tracking car asking prices as a viable UK business for decades.
Everyone knows the difference between the asking price and selling price. It is schoolboy GCSE Economics.
The OP is 100% clear and open that his numbers track and scrape the asking price from known sources. And the numbers are free of charge. There really is no issue.
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