Diesel Gallardo!!!?
Discussion
Sorry, dont mean to go on but so much interesting stuff out there in google land. Take a look at this diesel racing project:
www.bankspower.com/im_superrod_oct04.cfm
The Banks race diesel will make about 900 lb-ft of torque from 2,500 rpm, and, with a very flat torque curve, maxing out at around 1,000 lb-ft of torque. The race engine produces 700 hp at its Banks-imposed redline of 5,000 rpm.
www.bankspower.com/im_superrod_oct04.cfm
The Banks race diesel will make about 900 lb-ft of torque from 2,500 rpm, and, with a very flat torque curve, maxing out at around 1,000 lb-ft of torque. The race engine produces 700 hp at its Banks-imposed redline of 5,000 rpm.
Good points.....but diesel supercar? what are the advantages over a petrol engine, reduced fuel consumption? Is that about it?
Is fuel consumption a big factor in peoples minds when laying out the thick end of a 100 grand on a car?
I bet the Lambo guys are muttering under their breath a lot at the moment.
Is fuel consumption a big factor in peoples minds when laying out the thick end of a 100 grand on a car?
I bet the Lambo guys are muttering under their breath a lot at the moment.
Well for endurance racing it would be usefull.
One of those sites suggested that the LM car could do 17 laps compared to Audi's 11.
Obviously thats not so much use in he real world but you never know, even more development may see a fantastic engine that couldnt be achieved with petrol. So worth having ago.
There is a term "if it ain' broke don't fix it" but some engineers can't just sit around doing nothing, they have to experiment and have a play!
One of those sites suggested that the LM car could do 17 laps compared to Audi's 11.
Obviously thats not so much use in he real world but you never know, even more development may see a fantastic engine that couldnt be achieved with petrol. So worth having ago.
There is a term "if it ain' broke don't fix it" but some engineers can't just sit around doing nothing, they have to experiment and have a play!
DustyC said:
600 BHP at 6000RPM on this diesel engine
www.algonet.se/~wip/lemans.htm
I'm impressed. Looking forward to listening to it ...
CLAC CLAC CLAC CLAC CLAC CLAC CLAC CLAC ...
Perhaps the Le Mans engine sounds decently, but I hardly expect any diesel engine developed for road applications to sound as good as a proper petrol engine, let alone one with the oral distinction of a Lamborghini. Even if that diesel engine project makes it into a road car it will take quite some time to the potential customer to purchase a supercar with a diesel engine, and that's all the better as far as I'm concerned.
>> Edited by Thom on Friday 17th December 14:12
>> Edited by Thom on Friday 17th December 14:12
A fast diesel saloon like the BMW 530d will do . . . let's stay with that and don't bother with diesel supercars. The Caterpillar Le Mans was a one off stunt. Diesel lumps still are to heavy to be competative . . .
Imagine a TVR Cerbera AJP8 diesel. The sound
There are some diesel bikes btw . . .
Didn't Jesse James do a Cummins powered trike . . .
Enough, stop it.
Imagine a TVR Cerbera AJP8 diesel. The sound
There are some diesel bikes btw . . .
Didn't Jesse James do a Cummins powered trike . . .
Enough, stop it.
Thom said:
Perhaps the Le Mans engine sounds decently, but I hardly expect any diesel engine developed for road applications to sound as good as a proper petrol engine, let alone one with the oral distinction of a Lamborghini. Even if that diesel engine project makes it into a road car it will take quite some time to the potential customer to purchase a supercar with a diesel engine, and that's all the better as far as I'm concerned.
>> Edited by Thom on Friday 17th December 14:12
The Lambo engine is the same V10 PD as the LM car.
My only probably would the what sort of sound it would make. Lambo engines should (and currently do) rumble at idle, bellow at mid revs and then scream like banshees at the top end. The engines maketh the car.
Isn't it Lambo legend that their car stylists simply "design the engine cover"?
Isn't it Lambo legend that their car stylists simply "design the engine cover"?
I wonder about sports cars with massive torque at low revs and properly flat torque curves.
It's been the holy grail for a long time in terms of making a quick car, but in terms of excitement?
Cars with decent torque curves often don't *feel* as quick as those that are more peaky and/or need to have the nuts revved off them. And in days when you get slapped for pretty much any speed above walking pace, coming up with something that feels exciting without getting you the death penalty if caught exercising your machine should perhaps be a bigger goal for manufacturers?
I also wonder what VAGs idea of what a supercar should be. Striving for absolute reliability, economy etc is probably wandering off down the wrong path. Think of the top 3 cars you regard as supercars - you can probably write a list as long as your arm of the faults these cars have, but you'd sell a kidney to have one.
It's been the holy grail for a long time in terms of making a quick car, but in terms of excitement?
Cars with decent torque curves often don't *feel* as quick as those that are more peaky and/or need to have the nuts revved off them. And in days when you get slapped for pretty much any speed above walking pace, coming up with something that feels exciting without getting you the death penalty if caught exercising your machine should perhaps be a bigger goal for manufacturers?
I also wonder what VAGs idea of what a supercar should be. Striving for absolute reliability, economy etc is probably wandering off down the wrong path. Think of the top 3 cars you regard as supercars - you can probably write a list as long as your arm of the faults these cars have, but you'd sell a kidney to have one.
murph7355 said:
I also wonder what VAGs idea of what a supercar should be. Striving for absolute reliability, economy etc is probably wandering off down the wrong path. Think of the top 3 cars you regard as supercars - you can probably write a list as long as your arm of the faults these cars have, but you'd sell a kidney to have one.
I doubt they were thinking about economy to begin with, I think that'll be an added perk of the development. Somehow I think monster torque was/is the priority.
I cant believe how many people are writing this whole idea off?? Why not let Lamborghini develop a high performance diesel engine??? I see no reason why they cant end up with something ridiculously powerful with a relatively nice soundtrack (think taurus sports LM) - I wish them all the best with it, and look forward to a more performance orientated diesel age...
As for the driving experience - I can think of several cars with extremely smooth power delievery (you need points of reference to realise how quick you are going) that are still absolutely amazing cars.
As for weight - think about it like this - a 550bhp Gallardo with 800lb/torque - would probably end up accelerating quicker than a Murcielago petrol!!! Lambo's arent exactly lightweights these days, im sure the massive torque would more than compensate for any extra weight.
All the best Lambo/ anyone developing a Performance Diesel.
BCA said:
...Lambo's arent exactly lightweights these days, im sure the massive torque would more than compensate for any extra weight...
Personally I'd much sooner see the supercar branches of the world concentrate on this aspect of their cars rather than getting embroiled in power wars and deisel engines!
If you reduce this aspect, you don't *need* as much power, and fuel economy benefits anyway.
I'm also not convinced that there are massive savings (truly worthwhile ones for low volume cars) with high performance deisels. It's a marketing gimmick and record books trick IMO.
rico said:I think thats precisely the point. HUGE torque. The W10 is a fantastic engine (for those enlightened and open minded enough to appreciate the engineering despite the fuel used).
In this week's Autocar.
Autocar said:
Lamborghini could be on the verge of a revolutionary supercar step. The Italian firm is testing a diesel Gallardo, with power coming from the 5.0litre 309bhp V10 VW engine
Unless the torque increase is worth it... then whats the point? Fuel economy... in a supercar?
Stoip and think: how many supercars are 4WD? Lambos are designed by engineers who pick the best solution for an engineering problem. Why not the W10? It has monster performance in a tidy package however you look at it.
Those cynics who scoff at diesel performance ought to look at the track record of the Golf diesel rally car. It kicks ass.
I'll bet it even sounds good when they've done with it. TVR manage to make a straight six sound good so there are precedents
. The A8 6.0 is way up there on my list of desirable cars, and I'd welcome a diesel supercar based on this fantastic engine. One thing is for sure, a Le Mans variant would wipe the floor with the competition - performance in abundance with no need for fuel stops.
murph7355 said:Can't help thinking you are missing the point somewhat, and haven't spent much time in modern diesels!
I wonder about sports cars with massive torque at low revs and properly flat torque curves.
It's been the holy grail for a long time in terms of making a quick car, but in terms of excitement?
Cars with decent torque curves often don't *feel* as quick as those that are more peaky and/or need to have the nuts revved off them. And in days when you get slapped for pretty much any speed above walking pace, coming up with something that feels exciting without getting you the death penalty if caught exercising your machine should perhaps be a bigger goal for manufacturers?
I also wonder what VAGs idea of what a supercar should be. Striving for absolute reliability, economy etc is probably wandering off down the wrong path. Think of the top 3 cars you regard as supercars - you can probably write a list as long as your arm of the faults these cars have, but you'd sell a kidney to have one.
I had a Golf TDI for a while, not exactly a firebrand, but very easy to drive quickly pretty well all the time. That flat torque curve means no matter what the road speed vs gear ratio, plant the accelerator and off you go.
Getting back into a petrol engined car - well aside from the TVR that is - well I'm glad the A8 is an auto, because stirring a gearbox just to find some performance is a bit lame. Its a bit like jumping out of a normally aspirated petrol car to something like an old BMW turbo, with turbo lag you could measure with an egg timer.
I very much doubt that economy has even figured in the design brief. Effortless GT performance probably has, though I can see where good economy might figure in the ultimate GT car (i.e my previous post comments about Le Mans!!)
As I said before, does it really bother you what pump you use at the garage?
If they had the right sound (as the LM car already proves is possible), the right feel/revs etc, high power and oddles more torque then why not get it over the petrol?
The only difference you might notice is the increased torque.
(and lack of spark plugs mentioned on the service bill!)
If they had the right sound (as the LM car already proves is possible), the right feel/revs etc, high power and oddles more torque then why not get it over the petrol?
The only difference you might notice is the increased torque.
(and lack of spark plugs mentioned on the service bill!)
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question381.htm
[pic]www.auto-on-net.com/ld/ADB.nsf/0/EDA95F123C2D262EC1256D7A004E05EE/$file/ECO-speedster.jpg[/pic]
Diesel in a powerboat sounds rather nice. Weight isn't a problem there . . .
[pic]www.auto-on-net.com/ld/ADB.nsf/0/EDA95F123C2D262EC1256D7A004E05EE/$file/ECO-speedster.jpg[/pic]
Diesel in a powerboat sounds rather nice. Weight isn't a problem there . . .
I must admit, I don't think a diesel Supercar is a very good idea for 2 reasons.
Firstly, the sound. I've heard plenty of V8, V12 and V16 diesels, and none of them sounded pretty...though admittedly they were powering cement pumps!
Secondly, I don't think the power/torque characteristics suit a sports car. For me the idea is that the harder you push it the more you get. A diesel would give it's best too early then run out of puff just when things were getting interesting.
Still, I've nothing against them giving it a go.
Firstly, the sound. I've heard plenty of V8, V12 and V16 diesels, and none of them sounded pretty...though admittedly they were powering cement pumps!
Secondly, I don't think the power/torque characteristics suit a sports car. For me the idea is that the harder you push it the more you get. A diesel would give it's best too early then run out of puff just when things were getting interesting.
Still, I've nothing against them giving it a go.
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