Definition of a supercar

[jakesmith]

NewNameNeeded said:

I love this discussion too, even though I think we all understand the definition is subjective.

Speaking of which.

R8 isn't a souped up version of a lesser car (it's not an A3 or a TT with a few styling mods) so not quite so clear cut. [Although I agree - not a supercar].

Agree with your logic on the Ford GT. At no point would I look at that and think it bore any relation to a Ka or Edge, or its status was devalued by other cars Ford make.

Agree not many marques out there where you could say every car is a supercar (or better) but I think McLaren may be one? Pagoni? Koenigsegg? What others???

I would have said Lamborghini was, till the Urus. Agree on the California.

If the Cali isn't then the R8 isn't. But what about the Cali T that has 50% more torque than the earlier engine? That must be supercar fast and a Ferarri

What grinds me about criticism of the R8 is it's fine to say it's not a supercar, but people fail to realise just how bespoke / hand built it is. People saying it's a 'souped up TT' or 'looks like an A3 inside' are the same people who 20 years ago were saying that the Boxster is a 'poor man's Porsche' or 'not a real Porsche' despite it being lauded as one of the best sports cars ever made.

It's just ignorance / jealousy IMO. When it came out the R8 was hailed as a 'junior supercar', maybe like how the very different 997TT was. I think that name is apt as it looks way more exotic than a Boxster, 911, M4, F Type etc. Maybe the question of what are the other 'junior supercars' is worthy of another thread. It could be a pigeon hole for the GTR, Granturismo Stradale, R8, 911 Turbo etc.

[Superleg48]

I have a Gallardo LP570-4 Superleggera. I couldn’t give a flying toss if people think that is a “Supercar” or not, probably a “junior Or baby Supercar” technically. To me the label does not matter, I just love it for what it is.

Lines seem to have become very blurred these days anyway with what at the end of the day seems to be a highly subjective definition for the most part, save for some obvious beyond argument examples. E.g. Aventador, Eggs, Zondas, some Ferraris, etc etc.

If you want to call your car a Supercar, go for it, I say. Whatever makes you happy.

[Nano2nd]

wyldstalyns said:

Repetitive or not I love this thread.

Reading through it and trying to analyse the general consensus, forgive me for stating the obvious, but I’d say that overall the clue is in the name- “super”. Literally this means “to an extreme degree”, and as such a supercar must be a car where the general metrics on which cars are judged must all be “extreme”.

That means:

- Design
- Performance (at its time)
- Rarity (stand alone model)
- Expense / exclusivity

Be extreme across all these measures and there you go. Fail on one and you fall short (eg a TVR’s affordability probably holds it back from supercar status even though you could argue it passes the other tests).

Using this logic on the more contentious cars in the thread:

- All varieties of 911 fall short due to a combo of non-extreme / mature design, and the fact that they’re a range undermining rarity vibe (even if the particular model is rare). 959 on the other hand qualifies; its styling is pushed just far enough and the rarity is unquestionable.

- R8 is closer on the design front than 911, but loses out for the same “range” reason. I’d say the same for Astons too.

- Things like the Ford GT / XJ220 clearly qualify, even with the badges (they are in no way “souped up versions” of lesser cars; they stand alone)

- And finally I don’t think one can argue that all cars from certain marques are supercars. Any SUV exentensions from Lambo, Ferrari, etc aren’t extreme on styling or rarity fronts (plus let’s face it it’s gotta be a sports car). Even something like the California is edging on being too mature with its design.

This model works for me!

Edited by wyldstalyns on Saturday 26th January 17:23

Whilst I think your rule set is sound, how do you then make an exception for the R8, it conforms to all 4 of your requirements?

Okay fine if there’s a fifth rule, that says the manufacturer can’t make lesser models, but that pretty much rules out all the mainstream super car manufacturers, didn’t lambo once make tractors?

[wyldstalyns]

Nano2nd said:

Whilst I think your rule set is sound, how do you then make an exception for the R8, it conforms to all 4 of your requirements?

Okay fine if there’s a fifth rule, that says the manufacturer can’t make lesser models, but that pretty much rules out all the mainstream super car manufacturers, didn’t lambo once make tractors?

Sorry, bit of confusion over my R8 comment. I do think it conforms on almost everything except for the fact it has multiple iterations stretching over years (like a 5-series or Range Rover or whatever) - it wasn’t a “one off”. I don’t mean to say it’s a souped up TT or whatever, it’s not!

This for me removes the exclusivity factor - there are now just too many. If the only R8 ever had been the first iteration, and they hadn’t made too many then it would pass for me.

The only supercar I can think of that is arguably part of a “series” is the Ford GT- but it’s extreme and rare enough to get away with it.

And yeah, agree that the badge shouldn’t stop something being a supercar- since as you say it would rule out some obvious ones!

[Durzel]

Would it be fair to say the the fact the R8 looks unmistakably Audi, and rather restrained generally, works against it in terms of "at a glance ooh a supercar" factor?

No one is going to mistake a Lambo for anything else. Equally you could say the same about a Ford GT, and oddly a GTR (even though I wouldn't call that a supercar either)

[Pioneer]

Yep, the R8 is quite practical as a dd. Not overly expensive to run, well-built, easy to drive, reliable, comfortable, ok visibilty, 2nd hand ones are cheap etc etc. Makes it one of the best drivers car bang-for-buck but none of these help qualify it as a sc. A sc should have very few of those attributes!

[murphyaj]

jakesmith said:

If the Cali isn't then the R8 isn't. But what about the Cali T that has 50% more torque than the earlier engine? That must be supercar fast and a Ferarri

I'd call the R8 a supercar but not the Cali, but it's nothing to do with speed. It's the design ethos. The Cali is a front engined 2+2 convertible which was designed by Ferrari to be a semi-practical cruiser, with more concessions to comfort and practicality than their mid-engined V8 models. Yes it is still very fast and very nimble, but It's design direction makes it a GT (or possibly a super-GT) car in my eyes, regardless of whether it is faster than an entry level R8.
The Cali is much closer in design to a DB9, which is unquestionably a GT car, than an R8.

[NewNameNeeded]

wyldstalyns said:

Sorry, bit of confusion over my R8 comment. I do think it conforms on almost everything except for the fact it has multiple iterations stretching over years ...

Aren't there like a million variations of the Gallardo, F430, Huracan, etc ?!??

[wyldstalyns]

NewNameNeeded said:

Aren't there like a million variations of the Gallardo, F430, Huracan, etc ?!??

I’d say those are all tweaks on the same car (like convertible / coupe versions), whereas if you take something like a 911 or 5-series or R8, they launch all-new cars under the same name, thereby outdating the prior car. That’s the difference for me. However Ferrari are pushing it with the 458->488! Much prefer approach of say 355->360; completely stand alone cars, never to be “tainted” by updated later versions.

[Durzel]

I agree. Barring convertible and special editions the F430, 458 and even the 488 are pretty much the same car. You could buy a 2010 458 and have to all intents and purposes the same car - certainly aesthetically - as a 2015 one. The only real differences over the years are in software upgrades (e.g. suspension, exhaust, dash). Ferrari are rather shrewd in that they do not make big "facelift" changes to their models in between new releases.

I'm not au fait with all the Gallardo models, I know there have been a few variants, but by and large visually at least it is trim differences. A Gallardo of any year remains unmistakably and quintessentially Lamborghini even from a sideways glance.

Superleg48 said:

I have a Gallardo LP570-4 Superleggera. I couldn’t give a flying toss if people think that is a “Supercar” or not, probably a “junior Or baby Supercar” technically. To me the label does not matter, I just love it for what it is.

Rest easy, a Gallardo is objectively a supercar.

Edited by Durzel on Tuesday 29th January 11:10

[DjSki]

MDL111 said:

So because a 250 SWB is slower than a current BMW/golf, it is not a supercar?

The classification of a car does not change just because it gets older and technology moves on. Cars do become more or less desirable over time though (although again not necessarily driven by performance compared to cars from different eras)

Disagree with this, I think the definition moves with time, a 250 is a classic car that was super in its time, no?

F430, still a super car but maybe not in 5 years? Whereas I don't think a 360 is now, but was, say ten years ago.

F1 still a super car, XJ220 still a supercar.

I'm thinking you need a super badge and fairly decent performance for the period.

Just my view.

[jakesmith]

Pioneer said:

Yep, the R8 is quite practical as a dd. Not overly expensive to run, well-built, easy to drive, reliable,

It isn't that cheap to run TBH
Have had it for 3 months so far here is my spend:

£700 Sorted engine issues with MAFs and air filters
£500 engine carbon clean
£600 service
£800 new strut, air con pressure switch, rear brake light
£950 new tyres
£400 parking sensor issue

£400 added heated seat
£300 added cruise
£2300 new exhaust (could have done this for less)
£1500 added carbon side blades

[Pericoloso]

DjSki said:

Disagree with this, I think the definition moves with time, a 250 is a classic car that was super in its time, no?

F430, still a super car but maybe not in 5 years? Whereas I don't think a 360 is now, but was, say ten years ago.

F1 still a super car, XJ220 still a supercar.

I'm thinking you need a super badge and fairly decent performance for the period.

Just my view.

Disagree with most of this.....

Why does a supercar lose it's status ,just because the game has moved on a bit ?

A 430 is but a 360 isn't.....

They look similar to each other ,both have V8 engines ,so I don't get that.

Just my 2p.

[anonymous-user]

Agree with the above.

A 250 LM was in it's day a supercar. In fact, in the mid 60's it must have seemed like it had landed from mars.

Today a Golf R would be faster, they said. But that's not the point. You cannot judge cars from different eras in the same manner.

[Durzel]

All three of those cars mentioned (360, F430, 250 LM) are supercars because they have that quintessentially je ne sais qois factor about them. Something intangible, ineffable, but unmistakeably there.

[200Plus Club]

jakesmith said:

It isn't that cheap to run TBH
Have had it for 3 months so far here is my spend:

£700 Sorted engine issues with MAFs and air filters
£500 engine carbon clean
£600 service
£800 new strut, air con pressure switch, rear brake light
£950 new tyres
£400 parking sensor issue

£400 added heated seat
£300 added cruise
£2300 new exhaust (could have done this for less)
£1500 added carbon side blades

Mine cost £768 for a 2 year service, I think a lot depends on what issues and mileage the R8 has and what spec. I got one with full carbon trim and an eisenmann exhaust already fitted. Mag ride can go at any mileage tho as many find. Very practical baby supercars imho

[jakesmith]

200Plus Club said:

jakesmith said:

It isn't that cheap to run TBH
Have had it for 3 months so far here is my spend:

£700 Sorted engine issues with MAFs and air filters
£500 engine carbon clean
£600 service
£800 new strut, air con pressure switch, rear brake light
£950 new tyres
£400 parking sensor issue

£400 added heated seat
£300 added cruise
£2300 new exhaust (could have done this for less)
£1500 added carbon side blades

Mine cost £768 for a 2 year service, I think a lot depends on what issues and mileage the R8 has and what spec. I got one with full carbon trim and an eisenmann exhaust already fitted. Mag ride can go at any mileage tho as many find. Very practical baby supercars imho

In fairness I didn’t wait for the right spec and didn’t get it inspected pre purchase. Had I done that I would have saved a load of money. I’ve always bought from forum members or respected dealers but this one I just jumped in and it’s cost me a lot. I could have probably spent the same so far on a newer car. However... mine should be perfect now for at least a while!

[Pioneer]

jakesmith said:

In fairness I didn’t wait for the right spec and didn’t get it inspected pre purchase. Had I done that I would have saved a load of money. I’ve always bought from forum members or respected dealers but this one I just jumped in and it’s cost me a lot. I could have probably spent the same so far on a newer car. However... mine should be perfect now for at least a while!

Wow! Okay ... a R8 'SHOULD' be cheap to run compared to others if you do your checks first. Thank god you hadn't bought a Ferrari, Lambo, McL ............

[sparta6]

A design which continues the exotic values of the original Supercar - the Miura.

Most people can smell a wannabee fifty feet away

[Nano2nd]

jakesmith said:

It isn't that cheap to run TBH
Have had it for 3 months so far here is my spend:

£700 Sorted engine issues with MAFs and air filters
£500 engine carbon clean
£600 service
£800 new strut, air con pressure switch, rear brake light
£950 new tyres
£400 parking sensor issue

£400 added heated seat
£300 added cruise
£2300 new exhaust (could have done this for less)
£1500 added carbon side blades

they are not all really running costs, the only real running costs are the service and tyres, that looks like a major service as an oil service is fixed price at £485.

for comparison I've had mine for just under a year and had: an oil service, aircon service and brake fluid change for just over £700 all in.

Edited by Nano2nd on Monday 4th February 15:10