Is a McLaren 570s A Supercar?

Is a McLaren 570s A Supercar?

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Discussion

av185

8,101 posts

68 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
The Surveyor said:
av185 said:
Some 911s are sports cars.

Some 911s are supercars.

Equally some Mclarens are sports cars.

And some Mclarens are supercars.

The 570S is a sports car.

As is the R8 btw.
I nearly agree with all that, although I am struggling to agree that any 911 variant falls into my perception of 'supercar'. The Carrera GT and 959 are supercar Porsches, but even the likes of the GT2 RS, GT3 RS and Turbo S are still very much sports cars in concept IMHO. Very good, high spec and bonkers fast, but still a sports car due largely to the shared silhouette and lineage with the Carrera 2 etc.
Fair enough but you forgot the 918.

GT2RS is definitely a supercar despite looking like a 911 there is nothing really vanilla 911 about them Carbon fibre alloy and magnesium construction further confirms this. Nothing else really matches them performance wise including Pista btw.

GT3 GT3 RS and TTS I agree are sports cars but with pace sound and driver involvement (GT3 and RS) exceeding many supercars especially on the road as opposed to track.

The Surveyor

6,547 posts

178 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
av185 said:
The Surveyor said:
av185 said:
Some 911s are sports cars.

Some 911s are supercars.

Equally some Mclarens are sports cars.

And some Mclarens are supercars.

The 570S is a sports car.

As is the R8 btw.
I nearly agree with all that, although I am struggling to agree that any 911 variant falls into my perception of 'supercar'. The Carrera GT and 959 are supercar Porsches, but even the likes of the GT2 RS, GT3 RS and Turbo S are still very much sports cars in concept IMHO. Very good, high spec and bonkers fast, but still a sports car due largely to the shared silhouette and lineage with the Carrera 2 etc.
Fair enough but you forgot the 918.

GT2RS is definitely a supercar despite looking like a 911 there is nothing really vanilla 911 about them Carbon fibre alloy and magnesium construction further confirms this. Nothing else really matches them performance wise including Pista btw.

GT3 GT3 RS and TTS I agree are sports cars but with pace sound and driver involvement (GT3 and RS) exceeding many supercars especially on the road as opposed to track.
Oh God yes, the 918 certainly falls into the 'supercar' class.

The difficulty, and the why the topic is so interesting is that there isn't really any logic, 'supercar' being more an emotive classification rather than a numerical threshold. When you see and sit in a GT2, it screams 'supercar', yet it is only incrementally 'more' than the GT3, than the TTS, than the GTS etc... now had they put the GT2 engine mid-ships like the RSR race car scratchchin

av185

8,101 posts

68 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
The latest GT2RS engine, like the gen 2 991 GT3 and GT RS, is actually approaching almost mid engine now although unlike the RSR race car (where the gearbox is at the back) the gearbox is still ahead of the engine.

This may actually change for future roadgoing 911s.

NoPaddleShiftForMe

140 posts

38 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
The Surveyor said:
I am struggling to agree that any 911 variant falls into my perception of 'supercar'.
Maybe this will help.


oo7ml

Original Poster:

134 posts

46 months

Wednesday 8th May
quotequote all
Gameface said:
oo7ml said:
Gameface said:
oo7ml said:
Hi,

As per title, is the 570s a supercar?

I would consider it to be!
You must be bored.
No, just trying to help a friend decide on which car to buy... however you my friend must be very bored.
The amount of threads you start bores me.

And your imaginary friend is going to base a 6 figure purchase on the back of what a bunch of complete strangers say on an internet forum he's not even part of?

Utter bks.
Go shoot yourself in the face you weirdo.

I’m absolutely baffled as to why someone would even chime in on a thread or person that bothered them... a very very sad life. Try get out more.

Thanks again to those of you have contributed.

I had suggested a 570s given his budget, but his very words were that he wanted a supercar and a 570s wasn’t a proper supercar.

I argued against his point and it’s interesting to see other people’s thoughts and input bar 1 person (as per usual).

It looks like a 2015 Huracan will be his choice.
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up_shift

152 posts

48 months

Thursday 9th May
quotequote all
davek_964 said:
I can understand the argument regarding R8s - from a purely technical perspective the answer is no doubt yes. But I agree with some earlier posters - a "supercar" is about more than that - and a big part of it may indeed be "badge snobbery" - but that doesn't change the fact that your average man in the street would look at a Ferrari / McLaren / Lambo and think "supercar" but less so an R8 - regardless of how good the Audi is.

On the other hand - in no world is a V8 Vantage a supercar!

(570 is though, definitely).
It's funny thoug, see the only reason I mentioned the V8V is exactly what you've mentioned there..

I don't know any non-car people that would look at my old V8V and think anything other than fast, exotic, expensive etc etc all the typical supercar accolades. Or the 911 really (but I do think the cayenne and panamera have dented that view).

Not my opinions, I sold the Aston for not being quite right, but its sort of the opposite to the R8, slower / less capable / desireably badge (pretty sure it was the most desireable brand in the world or some rubbush in the last few years), and to the average Joe gets associated with "supercar".

side point: I don't know if I agree a varant of a model can be a supercar and another, not - if not for the average joe reason above..


likesachange

1,594 posts

135 months

Thursday 9th May
quotequote all
Gameface said:
And your imaginary friend is going to base a 6 figure purchase on the back of what a bunch of complete strangers say on an internet forum he's not even part of?

Utter bks.
This

Gameface

8,355 posts

18 months

Thursday 9th May
quotequote all
Gameface said:
oo7ml said:
Gameface said:
oo7ml said:
Hi,

As per title, is the 570s a supercar?

I would consider it to be!
You must be bored.
No, just trying to help a friend decide on which car to buy... however you my friend must be very bored.
The amount of threads you start bores me.

And your imaginary friend is going to base a 6 figure purchase on the back of what a bunch of complete strangers say on an internet forum he's not even part of?

Utter bks.
oo7ml said:
Go shoot yourself in the face you weirdo.
rofl Yet you sound don't sound weird for suggesting it! rofl

You ought to be careful saying things like that.

oo7ml said:
I’m absolutely baffled as to why someone would even chime in on a thread or person that bothered them... a very very sad life. Try get out more.
You've been called out for talking st numerous times. People have laughed at you for starting so many threads about supercars.

What did you buy in the end? The Huracan or the 488?


wyldstalyns

35 posts

10 months

Sunday 12th May
quotequote all
Maybe I haven’t been on here long enough to get bored with it, but I still enjoy this debate. These kind of pointless semantic arguments are what a passion for something (cars in this instance) is all about really.

On that front, i’ll repeat my opinion from another similar thread. “Super” literally means “to an extreme degree”. Therefore a supercar is a car which takes the usual judgement metrics of a car and takes them to an “extreme degree” (when the car is new). These metrics include:

Styling
Performance
Rarity
Price / exclusivity
Practicality

The 911 fails on rarity and styling (too restrained) so it’s a sports car. All “grand tourer” cars like Astons, some Ferraris, etc., fail on practicality (4 seats is a massive no-no). TVRs are too cheap and accessible. Etc.

Badge on the other hand doesn’t matter, as the Ford GT, XJ220, etc. prove.

The reason the R8 is so controversial is because it’s so marginal on a few metrics. It’s at the bottom end of price for a supercar, and also at the bottom end of rarity. It’s also a touch too practiclal. If they upped the price by £50k, and you only saw them occasionally, then for me it would pass.

Outside of the eternal enigma of the R8 I think this definition is pretty robust though.

Edited by wyldstalyns on Sunday 12th May 18:01

johnwilliams77

5,356 posts

44 months

Sunday 12th May
quotequote all
wyldstalyns said:
Maybe I haven’t been on here long enough to get bored with it, but I still enjoy this debate. These kind of pointless semantic arguments are what a passion for something (cars in this instance) is all about really.

On that front, i’ll repeat my opinion from another similar thread. “Super” literally means “to an extreme degree”. Therefore a supercar is a car which takes the usual judgement metrics of a car and takes them to an “extreme degree” (when the car is new). These metrics include:

Styling
Performance
Rarity
Price / exclusivity
Practicality

The 911 fails on rarity and styling (too restrained) so it’s a sports car. All “grand tourer” cars like Astons, some Ferraris, etc., fail on practicality (4 seats is a massive no-no). TVRs are too cheap and accessible. Etc.

Badge on the other hand doesn’t matter, as the Ford GT, XJ220, etc. prove.

The reason the R8 is so controversial is because it’s so marginal on a few metrics. It’s at the bottom end of price for a supercar, and also at the bottom end of rarity. It’s also a touch too practiclal. If they upped the price by £50k, and you only saw them occasionally, then for me it would pass.

Outside of the eternal enigma of the R8 I think this definition is pretty robust though.

Edited by wyldstalyns on Sunday 12th May 18:01
I happen to agree.

mickpsu

133 posts

88 months

Sunday 12th May
quotequote all
wyldstalyns said:
Maybe I haven’t been on here long enough to get bored with it, but I still enjoy this debate. These kind of pointless semantic arguments are what a passion for something (cars in this instance) is all about really.

On that front, i’ll repeat my opinion from another similar thread. “Super” literally means “to an extreme degree”. Therefore a supercar is a car which takes the usual judgement metrics of a car and takes them to an “extreme degree” (when the car is new). These metrics include:

Styling
Performance
Rarity
Price / exclusivity
Practicality

The 911 fails on rarity and styling (too restrained) so it’s a sports car. All “grand tourer” cars like Astons, some Ferraris, etc., fail on practicality (4 seats is a massive no-no). TVRs are too cheap and accessible. Etc.

Badge on the other hand doesn’t matter, as the Ford GT, XJ220, etc. prove.

The reason the R8 is so controversial is because it’s so marginal on a few metrics. It’s at the bottom end of price for a supercar, and also at the bottom end of rarity. It’s also a touch too practiclal. If they upped the price by £50k, and you only saw them occasionally, then for me it would pass.

Outside of the eternal enigma of the R8 I think this definition is pretty robust though.

Edited by wyldstalyns on Sunday 12th May 18:01
Well said

Nano2nd

3,095 posts

197 months

Sunday 12th May
quotequote all
wyldstalyns said:
The reason the R8 is so controversial is because it’s so marginal on a few metrics. It’s at the bottom end of price for a supercar, and also at the bottom end of rarity. It’s also a touch too practiclal. If they upped the price by £50k, and you only saw them occasionally, then for me it would pass.
this isn't correct though is it, an R8 is less practical that the equivalent Ferrari in terms of both luggage space and interior space. And when you look at the rarity, the numbers seem to disagree, they are not really any more of less "rare" than a Ferrari looking at the build numbers... even looking at the second hand market, on PH there are more 430/458/488 for sale than R8s and autotrader is about the same. Whilst the perception might be that they are more common of the "supercars" it's not really the case, i saw more Ferraris today than i did R8s biggrin

wyldstalyns

35 posts

10 months

Sunday 12th May
quotequote all
Nano2nd said:
this isn't correct though is it, an R8 is less practical that the equivalent Ferrari in terms of both luggage space and interior space. And when you look at the rarity, the numbers seem to disagree, they are not really any more of less "rare" than a Ferrari looking at the build numbers... even looking at the second hand market, on PH there are more 430/458/488 for sale than R8s and autotrader is about the same. Whilst the perception might be that they are more common of the "supercars" it's not really the case, i saw more Ferraris today than i did R8s biggrin
Fair- it feels like you see them more often in general though. Probably because their owners drive them more- which implies being practical, thus another iffy point when it comes to supercar status.

That said I’m happy to give it the benefit of the doubt. At the very least it’s the car that represents the “cut off” point, the boundary of the category.

hucumber

314 posts

38 months

Sunday 12th May
quotequote all
I personally wouldnt describe the r8 as a supercar, simply because to me it doesnt look like one. 570 looks like one, and goes like one, therefore would categories it as one.

Olivera

3,329 posts

180 months

Sunday 12th May
quotequote all
R8 - most definately yes, N/A V10
570S - yes, but with a worse exhaust note
720S, as above but with an active chassis not always liked by skilled drivers

av185

8,101 posts

68 months

Sunday 12th May
quotequote all
wyldstalyns said:
The 911 fails on rarity and styling (too restrained) so it’s a sports car.

Edited by wyldstalyns on Sunday 12th May 18:01
Wrong.

991 GT2RS.

40 UK cars. So rare.

Restrained styling. Hardly.


isaldiri

4,496 posts

109 months

Sunday 12th May
quotequote all
av185 said:
991 GT2RS.

40 UK cars. So rare.
Absolute nonsense. There are over 100 UK cars.

wyldstalyns

35 posts

10 months

Sunday 12th May
quotequote all
av185 said:
Wrong.

991 GT2RS.

40 UK cars. So rare.

Restrained styling. Hardly.

I’m talking about the 911 generally. Take your points about this variant they’re all true, however....

What’s interesting about this debate is that people tend to use “supercar” as a way to “praise”- as in they want their fave cars to be labelled like that. Like it’s a mark of quality. Like the “best” cars are supercars. For me it’s more a neutral term of labelling a certain type of car. No more positive or negative than saying “hatchback” or “SUV”. It’s just a variant of car type. A supercar isn’t “better” than a sports car, or estate car- they’re all trying to be diffent things. All depends how you’re judging them.

So saying an R8 or 911 variant isn’t a supercar in no way diminishes them as cars- they’re awesome. They’re just different “types” of car.

To that end I’d call at GT2RS a road going race car - which is a different thing to a supercar. Not better or worse- all depends on what you’re going for.


Edited by wyldstalyns on Sunday 12th May 23:16


Edited by wyldstalyns on Sunday 12th May 23:17

murphyaj

187 posts

16 months

Monday 13th May
quotequote all
wyldstalyns said:
What’s interesting about this debate is that people tend to use “supercar” as a way to “praise”- as in they want their fave cars to be labelled like that. Like it’s a mark of quality. Like the “best” cars are supercars. For me it’s more a neutral term of labelling a certain type of car. No more positive or negative than saying “hatchback” or “SUV”. It’s just a variant of car type. A supercar isn’t “better” than a sports car, or estate car- they’re all trying to be diffent things. All depends how you’re judging them.

So saying an R8 or 911 variant isn’t a supercar in no way diminishes them as cars- they’re awesome. They’re just different “types” of car.
Very well put. A RR Phantom is not a supercar, neither is a supercharged Arial Atom. Does that mean they are "worse" than a 488? No.

jakesmith

3,845 posts

112 months

Tuesday 14th May
quotequote all
av185 said:
Wrong.

991 GT2RS.

40 UK cars. So rare.

Restrained styling. Hardly.

If you're going to spout about the R8 not being a supercar because it is an Audi, or looks like a TT or the other tedious cliches you roll out, then your car is just another Porsche like a 986 Boxster or a 996 C2 which is what most people will think it is anyway