The truth in the manual vs robotised manual obsession ?
Discussion
Hi Richard ,
I put 10 years of my life into that Brooke - and still have so much material ( literature / history / models / stories ) on it - including Toby Sutton's ( the original designer ) drawings etc .
Really loved it - maybe a bit too much .
Ran out of garage space (and funds ) , so had to let the Brooke go to make space , and acquire funds , for a KTM X-BOW R ( something that I had lusted after for 10 years before getting my 980 mile 2012 car - so many similarities to , and associations with, the Countach )
I can confidently say that I have had absolutely no regrets about getting the X-BOW - and I have just written the world's first book on the Road Homologated KTM X-BOW s - with full support from the factory and Dallara .
( GOOGLE : 9781787114333 its available on Amazon , and there is a photo of the Brooke in it )
But there are times I miss the history of that particular Brooke ( by which I mean that individual car - shame that it has had its livery butchered recently , but that is easily rectified )
With regards to fluffed gearchanges , I really hate it when it happens , so really try and give any car the time , care and sympathy to make sure that it happens as seldom as possible .
But I have been driving manuals all my life , and I would be surprised if I contributed to the clutch in that Brooke being worn by even 5 % in the 10,000 or so miles that I drove it .
My Countach with 20,000 miles , which I have had for almost 20 years , is still on its original factory clutch , so I think that I am fairly sympathetic .
In the early years of my ownership , I drove the Countach all over Europe , and enjoyed it in a manner that is simply not possible today ( which is why my annual mileage in that car is now miniscule cf previously ) , and the clutch and gearbox never complained .
I do not know what has happened to the Brooke over the last 2-3 years , but when it left me , its clutch and gearbox were absolutely fine ….. the righthand gearshift is not an issue , but the gearlever movement ( particularly to engage reverse ) is unusual , although easily learnt .
Enjoy your test drive , and keep us informed
I put 10 years of my life into that Brooke - and still have so much material ( literature / history / models / stories ) on it - including Toby Sutton's ( the original designer ) drawings etc .
Really loved it - maybe a bit too much .
Ran out of garage space (and funds ) , so had to let the Brooke go to make space , and acquire funds , for a KTM X-BOW R ( something that I had lusted after for 10 years before getting my 980 mile 2012 car - so many similarities to , and associations with, the Countach )
I can confidently say that I have had absolutely no regrets about getting the X-BOW - and I have just written the world's first book on the Road Homologated KTM X-BOW s - with full support from the factory and Dallara .
( GOOGLE : 9781787114333 its available on Amazon , and there is a photo of the Brooke in it )
But there are times I miss the history of that particular Brooke ( by which I mean that individual car - shame that it has had its livery butchered recently , but that is easily rectified )
With regards to fluffed gearchanges , I really hate it when it happens , so really try and give any car the time , care and sympathy to make sure that it happens as seldom as possible .
But I have been driving manuals all my life , and I would be surprised if I contributed to the clutch in that Brooke being worn by even 5 % in the 10,000 or so miles that I drove it .
My Countach with 20,000 miles , which I have had for almost 20 years , is still on its original factory clutch , so I think that I am fairly sympathetic .
In the early years of my ownership , I drove the Countach all over Europe , and enjoyed it in a manner that is simply not possible today ( which is why my annual mileage in that car is now miniscule cf previously ) , and the clutch and gearbox never complained .
I do not know what has happened to the Brooke over the last 2-3 years , but when it left me , its clutch and gearbox were absolutely fine ….. the righthand gearshift is not an issue , but the gearlever movement ( particularly to engage reverse ) is unusual , although easily learnt .
Enjoy your test drive , and keep us informed
Larry5.2 said:
Order66 said:
They also reveal themselves to be world-class bulls
tters by talking about such bks as heel/toeing in cars that have pedal setups that would never allow heel toe - this means almost 100% of road-going "supercars". If someone in a 430 tells you they've bought a manual because they like to heel/toe then they are either a liar or have fking clownshoes!
Really? I may be a d***head but I know of at least 3 cars where you (sorry, I) can heel and toe. On the Gallardo I had to adjust the brake-pedal height with the OEM adjuster at the top of the pedal box. On the 360 and Murci, they were fine out the box. tters by talking about such bks as heel/toeing in cars that have pedal setups that would never allow heel toe - this means almost 100% of road-going "supercars". If someone in a 430 tells you they've bought a manual because they like to heel/toe then they are either a liar or have fking clownshoes!head...maybe, bullstter, nope.cayman-black said:
I,m quite keen on a GT3 Porsche and always prefer a manual but with this car i feel i want to try this PDK box , but as many on here have the manual and i know its good would i regret getting the PDK ,.Thinking.
I spent my whole driving life buying manuals ,I switched to pdk for the gts and gt3 and honestly I don’t think I would go back .Ageing and having 2 left arm operations this year alone also puts the nail in the coffin for me and manuals .
The pdk box is exceptional but some people will always prefer a manual ,it’s a very personal choice.
I have now owned and driven a range of manual, single clutch paddle shift and double clutch cars. It is a completely personal choice, but for me I won’t buy a manual anymore, I just don’t like the feel and it detracts from my enjoyment of the car. I also think modern cars are just too fast for a slow clunky manual shift.
The gearbox in my 458 is seriously impressive; lightning fast and very smooth. However, I do sometimes miss the kick and the brutality you get from the old style paddle boxes of the Ferrari 430 and Aston Vantage sport shift. The downshifting of a good paddleshift feels and sounds amazing.
The gearbox in my 458 is seriously impressive; lightning fast and very smooth. However, I do sometimes miss the kick and the brutality you get from the old style paddle boxes of the Ferrari 430 and Aston Vantage sport shift. The downshifting of a good paddleshift feels and sounds amazing.
cayman-black said:
I,m quite keen on a GT3 Porsche and always prefer a manual but with this car i feel i want to try this PDK box , but as many on here have the manual and i know its good would i regret getting the PDK ,.Thinking.
Like Frankie says it's a personal choice there is no right or wrong.Had both PDK S and manual GT3s and they are both great gearboxes in fact the PDK S also betters the F1 gearbox on the Ferrari imo.
The manual GT3 is as good as the 981 GT4 but as is the current trend clutches are getting too light imo in Porsche GTs.
The use of the car also comes into play. If I want a car solely for recreational road use I would go manual every time but for commuting/track use PDK S would perhaps have the edge.
Chris355 said:
I have now owned and driven a range of manual, single clutch paddle shift and double clutch cars. It is a completely personal choice, but for me I won’t buy a manual anymore, I just don’t like the feel and it detracts from my enjoyment of the car. I also think modern cars are just too fast for a slow clunky manual shift.
How about a fast perfectly weighted shift on the 991.2 GT3?And flatshifting with this gearbox provides performance almost as good as the PDK S.
av185 said:
How about a fast perfectly weighted shift on the 991.2 GT3?
And flatshifting with this gearbox provides performance almost as good as the PDK S.
Not for me I’m afraid. I’ve owned and driven a variety of Porsche’s and they don’t do anything for me with any gearbox. I owned a gen1 997 turbo manual which is the car that finally put the nail in the coffin for manual cars; absolutely hated the manual box in it (the tiptronic was even worse in some I test drove). And flatshifting with this gearbox provides performance almost as good as the PDK S.
Chris355 said:
Not for me I’m afraid. I’ve owned and driven a variety of Porsche’s and they don’t do anything for me with any gearbox. I owned a gen1 997 turbo manual which is the car that finally put the nail in the coffin for manual cars; absolutely hated the manual box in it (the tiptronic was even worse in some I test drove).
Well you’ll need some sort of gearbox surely?Unless you’re saying you don’t like gearboxes at all?
If so you’ll need a Tesla.
jakesmith said:
Chris355 said:
Not for me I’m afraid. I’ve owned and driven a variety of Porsche’s and they don’t do anything for me with any gearbox. I owned a gen1 997 turbo manual which is the car that finally put the nail in the coffin for manual cars; absolutely hated the manual box in it (the tiptronic was even worse in some I test drove).
Well you’ll need some sort of gearbox surely?Unless you’re saying you don’t like gearboxes at all?
If so you’ll need a Tesla.
one moment you're riding a nice smooth torque curve, then you're unsettled by no torque, then you're adapting to an entirely different area of the torque curve
clutches, torque converters, gears, all horrible
Chris355 said:
av185 said:
How about a fast perfectly weighted shift on the 991.2 GT3?
And flatshifting with this gearbox provides performance almost as good as the PDK S.
Not for me I’m afraid. I’ve owned and driven a variety of Porsche’s and they don’t do anything for me with any gearbox. I owned a gen1 997 turbo manual which is the car that finally put the nail in the coffin for manual cars; absolutely hated the manual box in it (the tiptronic was even worse in some I test drove). And flatshifting with this gearbox provides performance almost as good as the PDK S.
t gearbox from inception anyway furthermore your 997 Turbo manual gearbox was never the best especially compared to recent almost 'perfect' Porsche GT gearboxes and coupled to a Turbo power delivery I can see why you essentially lost the will.In contrast a perfectly weighted manual gearbox and high revving n.a. engine with near linear power delivery is a joy to behold whilst also providing the challenge needed for optimum driving enjoyment imo but unfortunately the market now dictates these gearboxes to be a dying breed mainly in the name of ease of use and typical driving dilution and most want a semi auto or auto box as a result.
andrew said:
gearboxes are horrible things, a fundamental flaw accompanying all combustion engines
one moment you're riding a nice smooth torque curve, then you're unsettled by no torque, then you're adapting to an entirely different area of the torque curve
clutches, torque converters, gears, all horrible
Isn't that were some find satisfaction in the art of manual driving for performance? That perfect sunday morning run through the best road one knows. That perfect synchronisation of revs, clutch , throttle and gear select to give a feeling of striving for MMI perfection.one moment you're riding a nice smooth torque curve, then you're unsettled by no torque, then you're adapting to an entirely different area of the torque curve
clutches, torque converters, gears, all horrible
There are moments when I get that feeling on spirited runs on a week end in my manual italian.
Were as during the week on my commute, I cant be asred with all that nonsense in my XKR and just select auto
When I was searching for a 355 or 360 many years ago a Ferrari specialist explained that the 360 was designed for the F1 automated box and thus the manual 360 had an inferior gear linkage to the manual 355. I ended up buying a 3 pedal 355 and loved the snick snick through the metal gate.
Was the information I was given correct or would I find the stick shift in a 430 to be similar to the 355's?
When I was considering a Gallardo or 430 about 7 years ago nobody wanted a manual and they were cheaper. My man logic suggests that as the 430 is a lot faster than the 355 I'd be best off saving money and buying an F1 so I could keep both hands on the steering wheel.
Was the information I was given correct or would I find the stick shift in a 430 to be similar to the 355's?
When I was considering a Gallardo or 430 about 7 years ago nobody wanted a manual and they were cheaper. My man logic suggests that as the 430 is a lot faster than the 355 I'd be best off saving money and buying an F1 so I could keep both hands on the steering wheel.
Gregor-lun1d said:
Perhaps a daft aside, but if its scarcity that drives up the price of manuals, then surely the most scarce transmissions of all will be robotised manuals. there were myriad of them pre-1997 (or whenever) and by 2011-ish the world had converted to PDK/DSG.
Just a thought ..
This is a very interesting thought... and one I've also had. If you add the possibility that in ten years time we are all electric and the gearbox is dead then you might be saying the same about a decent DCT.Just a thought ..
I've relatively recently purchased an E46 CSL. My plan was to immediately convert in to a manual to create my ideal driver-focused road car. Having spent a bit of time with the SMG though I am having second thoughts - it's quite an event and requires thought to drive properly - and the key is that it feels gritty and mechanical. I can compare this directly with my daily M4 with DCT - I find this gearbox (and car) incredibly dull by comparison!
Edited by gubsta on Friday 3rd January 21:07
carspath said:
Hi Richard ,
I put 10 years of my life into that Brooke - and still have so much material ( literature / history / models / stories ) on it - including Toby Sutton's ( the original designer ) drawings etc .
Really loved it - maybe a bit too much .
Ran out of garage space (and funds ) , so had to let the Brooke go to make space , and acquire funds , for a KTM X-BOW R ( something that I had lusted after for 10 years before getting my 980 mile 2012 car - so many similarities to , and associations with, the Countach )
I can confidently say that I have had absolutely no regrets about getting the X-BOW - and I have just written the world's first book on the Road Homologated KTM X-BOW s - with full support from the factory and Dallara .
( GOOGLE : 9781787114333 its available on Amazon , and there is a photo of the Brooke in it )
But there are times I miss the history of that particular Brooke ( by which I mean that individual car - shame that it has had its livery butchered recently , but that is easily rectified )
With regards to fluffed gearchanges , I really hate it when it happens , so really try and give any car the time , care and sympathy to make sure that it happens as seldom as possible .
But I have been driving manuals all my life , and I would be surprised if I contributed to the clutch in that Brooke being worn by even 5 % in the 10,000 or so miles that I drove it .
My Countach with 20,000 miles , which I have had for almost 20 years , is still on its original factory clutch , so I think that I am fairly sympathetic .
In the early years of my ownership , I drove the Countach all over Europe , and enjoyed it in a manner that is simply not possible today ( which is why my annual mileage in that car is now miniscule cf previously ) , and the clutch and gearbox never complained .
I do not know what has happened to the Brooke over the last 2-3 years , but when it left me , its clutch and gearbox were absolutely fine ….. the righthand gearshift is not an issue , but the gearlever movement ( particularly to engage reverse ) is unusual , although easily learnt .
Enjoy your test drive , and keep us informed
My goodness, thank you for your very precious time. I remembered you were a Dr but had no idea I was talking to an eye consultant. Without being too star struck I truly appreciate your answer and history. When I met you I thought the Brooke reminded me of a Grinnall Scorpion...what an insult to the Brooke...and yet you still spoke with such passion. Right then...enough flannel.I put 10 years of my life into that Brooke - and still have so much material ( literature / history / models / stories ) on it - including Toby Sutton's ( the original designer ) drawings etc .
Really loved it - maybe a bit too much .
Ran out of garage space (and funds ) , so had to let the Brooke go to make space , and acquire funds , for a KTM X-BOW R ( something that I had lusted after for 10 years before getting my 980 mile 2012 car - so many similarities to , and associations with, the Countach )
I can confidently say that I have had absolutely no regrets about getting the X-BOW - and I have just written the world's first book on the Road Homologated KTM X-BOW s - with full support from the factory and Dallara .
( GOOGLE : 9781787114333 its available on Amazon , and there is a photo of the Brooke in it )
But there are times I miss the history of that particular Brooke ( by which I mean that individual car - shame that it has had its livery butchered recently , but that is easily rectified )
With regards to fluffed gearchanges , I really hate it when it happens , so really try and give any car the time , care and sympathy to make sure that it happens as seldom as possible .
But I have been driving manuals all my life , and I would be surprised if I contributed to the clutch in that Brooke being worn by even 5 % in the 10,000 or so miles that I drove it .
My Countach with 20,000 miles , which I have had for almost 20 years , is still on its original factory clutch , so I think that I am fairly sympathetic .
In the early years of my ownership , I drove the Countach all over Europe , and enjoyed it in a manner that is simply not possible today ( which is why my annual mileage in that car is now miniscule cf previously ) , and the clutch and gearbox never complained .
I do not know what has happened to the Brooke over the last 2-3 years , but when it left me , its clutch and gearbox were absolutely fine ….. the righthand gearshift is not an issue , but the gearlever movement ( particularly to engage reverse ) is unusual , although easily learnt .
Enjoy your test drive , and keep us informed
Unfortunately I was unable to view the car last week as my Mother fell and broke her arm during my respite. I had to put my life and business on hold to care for her three years ago and that week was my first respite. However, the car is still for sale so I shall attempt to see it this week, all being well.
I quite like the coachwork, sorry but I have yet to see it in the flesh. It purports to have 16670 recorded miles and was only on the road from May'19 having been SORN for a year or so prior. I had wondered when you had sold it and what use it would have had since your ownership as I believe that you only used it on the road. Of course you cannot answer the usage part of that but I had deduced that you had sold it at the beginning of '19 as there is evidence of an advertisement.
If I do buy the car, I should be very interested in as much information/ literature as I can get. I live within five miles of Brooke in Norfolk, I know that will mean something to you, so the car maybe coming home. We may have to talk.
Thank you for your time and trouble Dr Path.
Richard
Hi again Richard ,
Absolutely the correct choice putting Mum first .... done that many times myself recently .
The car will wait for you
I sold the Brooke sometime in 2017 , I think .
I would be happy to talk to you about it .
The car needs dedication... in its purchase , it’s maintenance, and in driving it .
It’s great fun , it’s very fast , and it gives you the impression that it is even faster than it already most certainly is .
It also has almost no crash protection .
My wife , even though she rode shotgun , ( yes she deserves many medals ) over many many of those 10,000 or so miles ( including over 600 miles in one sitting ) , was very glad when I moved on to the X-BOW R .
Part availability may , or may not be a problem
The body needed to come off for even minor work
You need a good local mechanic... I was lucky in having an ex F1 mechanic very close by
Little niggles
But part of me still adores that car very ,very much .
It seems appropriate that we are discussing it on the Supercar Forum ..... it was exhilaratingly fast , very rare , manual , right hand gear change , naturally aspirated , bespoke ( many of the things Brooke did to my spec , including twin coolant reservoirs so that the Cosworth engine didn’t overheat on long distance Continental journeys ) longitudinally orientated engine in a part circular , part square space frame chassis .
What I will never forget is getting wheel spin in the dry in fifth at high revs , years ago on the Continent where it was legal of course, .... the Cosworth ECU was apparently programmed to suddenly give its all , just past 6000 rpm on this particular car ( it was the prototype )
I don’t know if this was deliberate or not , but the first time it happened it was a real surprise .
2nd time .... , proved that it is repeatable ,never again thereafter , thank you .
I designed that luggage carrier myself , and had it built .
I never got to use it .
Make sure that it is safe and legal ..... I never SVAed it or anything , never used it at all in fact
Having spent time with Dallara,s engineers while writing the X-BOW book , I now realise just how complex aerodynamics is , and my crude attempts at making it aerodynamic might not have been correct or safe .
Fun designing and getting it built , but never tested or used it . So be careful , very careful .
A life enhancing experience , that Brooke
A mini supercar
Absolutely the correct choice putting Mum first .... done that many times myself recently .
The car will wait for you
I sold the Brooke sometime in 2017 , I think .
I would be happy to talk to you about it .
The car needs dedication... in its purchase , it’s maintenance, and in driving it .
It’s great fun , it’s very fast , and it gives you the impression that it is even faster than it already most certainly is .
It also has almost no crash protection .
My wife , even though she rode shotgun , ( yes she deserves many medals ) over many many of those 10,000 or so miles ( including over 600 miles in one sitting ) , was very glad when I moved on to the X-BOW R .
Part availability may , or may not be a problem
The body needed to come off for even minor work
You need a good local mechanic... I was lucky in having an ex F1 mechanic very close by
Little niggles
But part of me still adores that car very ,very much .
It seems appropriate that we are discussing it on the Supercar Forum ..... it was exhilaratingly fast , very rare , manual , right hand gear change , naturally aspirated , bespoke ( many of the things Brooke did to my spec , including twin coolant reservoirs so that the Cosworth engine didn’t overheat on long distance Continental journeys ) longitudinally orientated engine in a part circular , part square space frame chassis .
What I will never forget is getting wheel spin in the dry in fifth at high revs , years ago on the Continent where it was legal of course, .... the Cosworth ECU was apparently programmed to suddenly give its all , just past 6000 rpm on this particular car ( it was the prototype )
I don’t know if this was deliberate or not , but the first time it happened it was a real surprise .
2nd time .... , proved that it is repeatable ,never again thereafter , thank you .
I designed that luggage carrier myself , and had it built .
I never got to use it .
Make sure that it is safe and legal ..... I never SVAed it or anything , never used it at all in fact
Having spent time with Dallara,s engineers while writing the X-BOW book , I now realise just how complex aerodynamics is , and my crude attempts at making it aerodynamic might not have been correct or safe .
Fun designing and getting it built , but never tested or used it . So be careful , very careful .
A life enhancing experience , that Brooke
A mini supercar
SFTWend said:
When I was searching for a 355 or 360 many years ago a Ferrari specialist explained that the 360 was designed for the F1 automated box and thus the manual 360 had an inferior gear linkage to the manual 355. I ended up buying a 3 pedal 355 and loved the snick snick through the metal gate.
Was the information I was given correct or would I find the stick shift in a 430 to be similar to the 355's?
When I was considering a Gallardo or 430 about 7 years ago nobody wanted a manual and they were cheaper. My man logic suggests that as the 430 is a lot faster than the 355 I'd be best off saving money and buying an F1 so I could keep both hands on the steering wheel.
No idea, but i can tell you that the manual in both 360 and 430 is easily as good as in the 355. The Lambo however i hated.Was the information I was given correct or would I find the stick shift in a 430 to be similar to the 355's?
When I was considering a Gallardo or 430 about 7 years ago nobody wanted a manual and they were cheaper. My man logic suggests that as the 430 is a lot faster than the 355 I'd be best off saving money and buying an F1 so I could keep both hands on the steering wheel.
So this is my take on F1 vs Manual as someone looking for a 550 or 575 Maranello.
I’ve test driven four 575’s 3 F1’s and one manual. All three F1 575’s drove differently, very differently depending on their age (therefore ecu software) and condition of clutch from jerky rodeo (still on original clutch at 30K) up to almost silky smooth (new clutch 4k previously at a main dealer).
It wasn’t the driving itself that I found uncomfortable (accept the rodeo version) it was parking, manoeuvering, getting it into reverse, the bleeping when it was in reverse that I found profoundly irritating. Then add to this the maintenance and adjustment of the system.
In my mind I’ve got my eye on the future as I’m looking to buy a car to keep until I can no longer drive. I’m not sure I want a 20 year old Ferrari with gearbox ECU’s and parts that require specialist adjustment and fine tuning to keep working. I think I’d like a manual gearbox that a man in a brown coat in a shed can still fix in another 20 years time.
Then there’s the beeping again.....
So after 3 F1’s I tried a manual 575M and it was sublime. No doubt on a track the F1 is better, but this car will never see a track in my hands. So for special trips and days out the click clack of that manual, the lack of drama when parking and the potential ease of long term future maintenance it made more sense to go for a manual. At that point I realised for me at least that the 550 is probably a more appropriate car than the 575.
This isn’t right or wrong, it’s just what works for me.
I’ve test driven four 575’s 3 F1’s and one manual. All three F1 575’s drove differently, very differently depending on their age (therefore ecu software) and condition of clutch from jerky rodeo (still on original clutch at 30K) up to almost silky smooth (new clutch 4k previously at a main dealer).
It wasn’t the driving itself that I found uncomfortable (accept the rodeo version) it was parking, manoeuvering, getting it into reverse, the bleeping when it was in reverse that I found profoundly irritating. Then add to this the maintenance and adjustment of the system.
In my mind I’ve got my eye on the future as I’m looking to buy a car to keep until I can no longer drive. I’m not sure I want a 20 year old Ferrari with gearbox ECU’s and parts that require specialist adjustment and fine tuning to keep working. I think I’d like a manual gearbox that a man in a brown coat in a shed can still fix in another 20 years time.
Then there’s the beeping again.....
So after 3 F1’s I tried a manual 575M and it was sublime. No doubt on a track the F1 is better, but this car will never see a track in my hands. So for special trips and days out the click clack of that manual, the lack of drama when parking and the potential ease of long term future maintenance it made more sense to go for a manual. At that point I realised for me at least that the 550 is probably a more appropriate car than the 575.
This isn’t right or wrong, it’s just what works for me.
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