Supercars: becoming mass market
Discussion
Hyper cars are the new super cars and super cars are the new sports cars.
There’s a well known YouTuber/car wrapper called Yianni that I follow on Instagram, he founded a rally that drives across Europe and there’s something like 100 cars, 70% of which are Aventadors and Huracans, the rest being range rovers, few Aston’s and a few Ferrari’s.
Even on his Instagram, he posts pictures of all the cars he wraps and again, so many are brand new from the factory Huracans and Aventadors and I go on the peoples accounts and they don’t look particularly rich. I think it’s good PCP deals and residuals on said cars that encourage people to buy them. Anyways, it’s very rare you see him wrap a hyper car, in fact, he’s only wrapped 1 918 and 1 Veyron. Cars like that are true testament’s of wealth as they are all £1m plus. Otherwise, the rest could cost 50k to own over 2-3 years on a PCP which is not that bad considering certain Merc’s and BMW’s drop that money in 3 years.
There’s a well known YouTuber/car wrapper called Yianni that I follow on Instagram, he founded a rally that drives across Europe and there’s something like 100 cars, 70% of which are Aventadors and Huracans, the rest being range rovers, few Aston’s and a few Ferrari’s.
Even on his Instagram, he posts pictures of all the cars he wraps and again, so many are brand new from the factory Huracans and Aventadors and I go on the peoples accounts and they don’t look particularly rich. I think it’s good PCP deals and residuals on said cars that encourage people to buy them. Anyways, it’s very rare you see him wrap a hyper car, in fact, he’s only wrapped 1 918 and 1 Veyron. Cars like that are true testament’s of wealth as they are all £1m plus. Otherwise, the rest could cost 50k to own over 2-3 years on a PCP which is not that bad considering certain Merc’s and BMW’s drop that money in 3 years.
Yup, I do ok, not amazing, certainly earn less than half my Dad did as an eye surgeon with decent private practice (how's that for a quick "I digrees") but having ticked my Super saloon car box (always a soft spot for me in the market) more than once I'm targetting a junior super car to buy without finance when I've saved enough. Not something I thought would I would get a shout at, bar a lottery win even 10 years ago.
I must admit I'm a die-hard Lambo fan but I would rather see a Miura than a Huracan, Aventador etc. A very nice Huracan Perf drove past me last week and I didn't really take a second glance. The market and cheap money now seems to make anything at this level affordable if you're happy to compromise somewhere else. For me these cars were always a dream, something I could never possibly own unless I made a success of myself. Now I seem to get more pleasure out of the oldies. If that was a 328GTS, Pantera, DB5 etc driving past the camera-phone would be straight out. Almost as if it's a real enthusiasts car rather than a statement.
I agree with you OP, had a very similar conversation last week. Lower down the ladder, it’s clear to see the once aspirational BMW / Mercedes / Audi’s have replaced the bread-and-butter Ford / Vauxhall / Rover’s of my youth in the 80/90s.
When the cheap money dries up, I hope the supercar manufacturers have a robust plan to ride out the storm (McLaren?).
When the cheap money dries up, I hope the supercar manufacturers have a robust plan to ride out the storm (McLaren?).
andrew said:
lamborghini european sales a/t carsalesbase
2018 1.679
2017 1.005
2016 941
2015 791
2014 560
2013 438
2012 474
2011 392
2010 453
2009 602
2008 725
2007 789
2006 666
2005 449
2004 653
2003 204
2002 166
2001 86
2000 118
1999 81
1998 79
1997 48
we can see the German effect !2018 1.679
2017 1.005
2016 941
2015 791
2014 560
2013 438
2012 474
2011 392
2010 453
2009 602
2008 725
2007 789
2006 666
2005 449
2004 653
2003 204
2002 166
2001 86
2000 118
1999 81
1998 79
1997 48
Pioneer said:
Auto810graphy said:
I never liked the I8 at first but it is growing on me.
You joke but my wife has a black i8 and someone actually asked her if it was a Lambo last week! She's no car enthusiast but it did make her laugh, esp. as she refuses to drive mineA Countach and a Boxer were miles apart in design, despite both being mid engine 12's.
Contemporary car designers take note !
Edited by sparta6 on Tuesday 9th July 17:29
wyldstalyns said:
Something that's been bothering me for a while: what are we going to do with all these supercars?
I've not been able to find any hard numbers (perhaps a more skilled sleuth will know the specifics), but if you consider that Ferrari (for instance) are making roughly double the numbers of cars per year they were making in the 90s, which in turn was roughly double what they were making in the 80s, a lot of cars are being churned out. Extend this to the other manufacturers, and then couple it with the fact these cars don't tend to be scrapped, and we're looking at huge growth of the number of these things in the market.
No idea of the specifics, but I'd guess that there are maybe 5x more supercars in the market now than in 1995 (??).
Emotionally, I don't know about you, but I feel these effects quite acutely. I find myself buzzing if I see, say, a 308 out and about - just as I did when I was a kid - but a 488 or a Aventador may as well just be a nice BMW to me. In my whole life I've only seen *one* Diablo out in the wild, whereas I'd say that living in London I see a modern Lambo near daily now.
That's just me of course - the more interesting question perhaps is what this growth will do to the market.
Here's my prediction.
The business model of companies like Mercedes, BMW, and Audi has for years been not one of ownership, but upgrade - just like you might do with your phone. You lease the car for a period of time and after a couple of years, you upgrade it to the latest 5-series, A6 or whatever. The effect of this model has been good for the manufacturers (endless reliable streams of cash), but of course terrible for depreciation on the cars (only the latest version is desirable).
In contrast, I'd say the business model of supercar brands in the "glory days" was something more like an ownership model - whereby each new model was relatively unique, and wasn't made obsolete by the one following it. People would then buy the cars more sporadically, hold onto them, and trade them in the second hand market. Not great for manufacturers, but very much limited depreciation since each car was in some way special.
The gameplan of the supercar brands is clearly to move from the latter model to the former. Finance is making new supercars roughly as accessible to people as top of the line Mercs used to be in the 90s - cars for the very well off, but not super rich - and so they can start to cultivate a rolling market of people who will just upgrade every 2/3 years. SUVs will accelerate this massively, and Porsche has already fully made this transition (I'd imagine they're setting the example they all want to follow). Meanwhile the likes of BMW and Mercedes are now cars of the middle classes - so the whole ladder has essentially shifted down a notch.
With this shift, the position in the market that used to be occupied by normal supercars (like the Diablo or 355) is now occupied by the special editions (like the Senna), which are being churned out in a manner similar to normal supercars of the past, and which are only accessible to "the rich".
The result of all this?
- BMW style depreciation eventually hitting mainstream supercars (e.g. the 488 equivalent in 10 years)
- Ferrari, Lambo, McLaren becoming badges you see daily
- Only cars £500k+ holding value (already seeing this)
As for the effect on old (e.g. pre-2005) supercar values? I'm not sure but I would hope (as a 355 owner) they would be unaffected. It seems that Porsche's transition to being the new BMW has done nothing to dent the enthusiasm for old 911s, so I'd imagine classic Ferraris and Lambos won't be dragged down by their shift to the mass market.
In conclusion though, I find this all a bit sad. It would be nice to have at least one badge out there that sets you pulse racing on the odd occasions you glimpse it - but I guess those days are gone.
Hi, I'm new here and I found the topic interesting because I've been thinking the same. I've not been able to find any hard numbers (perhaps a more skilled sleuth will know the specifics), but if you consider that Ferrari (for instance) are making roughly double the numbers of cars per year they were making in the 90s, which in turn was roughly double what they were making in the 80s, a lot of cars are being churned out. Extend this to the other manufacturers, and then couple it with the fact these cars don't tend to be scrapped, and we're looking at huge growth of the number of these things in the market.
No idea of the specifics, but I'd guess that there are maybe 5x more supercars in the market now than in 1995 (??).
Emotionally, I don't know about you, but I feel these effects quite acutely. I find myself buzzing if I see, say, a 308 out and about - just as I did when I was a kid - but a 488 or a Aventador may as well just be a nice BMW to me. In my whole life I've only seen *one* Diablo out in the wild, whereas I'd say that living in London I see a modern Lambo near daily now.
That's just me of course - the more interesting question perhaps is what this growth will do to the market.
Here's my prediction.
The business model of companies like Mercedes, BMW, and Audi has for years been not one of ownership, but upgrade - just like you might do with your phone. You lease the car for a period of time and after a couple of years, you upgrade it to the latest 5-series, A6 or whatever. The effect of this model has been good for the manufacturers (endless reliable streams of cash), but of course terrible for depreciation on the cars (only the latest version is desirable).
In contrast, I'd say the business model of supercar brands in the "glory days" was something more like an ownership model - whereby each new model was relatively unique, and wasn't made obsolete by the one following it. People would then buy the cars more sporadically, hold onto them, and trade them in the second hand market. Not great for manufacturers, but very much limited depreciation since each car was in some way special.
The gameplan of the supercar brands is clearly to move from the latter model to the former. Finance is making new supercars roughly as accessible to people as top of the line Mercs used to be in the 90s - cars for the very well off, but not super rich - and so they can start to cultivate a rolling market of people who will just upgrade every 2/3 years. SUVs will accelerate this massively, and Porsche has already fully made this transition (I'd imagine they're setting the example they all want to follow). Meanwhile the likes of BMW and Mercedes are now cars of the middle classes - so the whole ladder has essentially shifted down a notch.
With this shift, the position in the market that used to be occupied by normal supercars (like the Diablo or 355) is now occupied by the special editions (like the Senna), which are being churned out in a manner similar to normal supercars of the past, and which are only accessible to "the rich".
The result of all this?
- BMW style depreciation eventually hitting mainstream supercars (e.g. the 488 equivalent in 10 years)
- Ferrari, Lambo, McLaren becoming badges you see daily
- Only cars £500k+ holding value (already seeing this)
As for the effect on old (e.g. pre-2005) supercar values? I'm not sure but I would hope (as a 355 owner) they would be unaffected. It seems that Porsche's transition to being the new BMW has done nothing to dent the enthusiasm for old 911s, so I'd imagine classic Ferraris and Lambos won't be dragged down by their shift to the mass market.
In conclusion though, I find this all a bit sad. It would be nice to have at least one badge out there that sets you pulse racing on the odd occasions you glimpse it - but I guess those days are gone.
One factor to consider is that since 1940, the price for supercars has been growing by an average 43% per decade (considering prices adjusted for inflation naturally). So that must be a way in which automakers maintain scarcity even with the increasing overall wealth. Big part since the 2000s is played by the hypercars market that has become the 'new supercars' as someone said.
It is tricky because they also survive at least for now by having the status of 'small volume manufacturers' and some like Aston Martin explicitly declared that is planning to reach 14,000 thousand units by 2025 or Ferrari that between 2019 and 2022 will launch 15 new models and it's already at the 10,000 units mark.
My guess would be that on the one hand, most will develop more affordable product lines to keep sales high and shareholders satisfied and at the same time keep increasing prices on really exclusive ones. On the other hand, they'll focus more on services that will become more expensive and even more exclusive. For instance, they make more and more money now with all the specifications options.
I agree that the market is probably inflated now due to consistent growth but as soon as it slows down common supercars will probably depreciate more heavily and few collectors will remain
Edited by RickDB on Friday 12th July 11:42
RickDB said:
It is tricky because they also survive at least for now by having the status of 'small volume manufacturers' and some like Aston Martin explicitly declared that is planning to reach 14,000 thousand units by 2025 or Ferrari that between 2019 and 2022 will launch 15 new models and it's already at the 10,000 units mark.
As was pointed out with some numbers earlier, production numbers have totally changed. I remember when Lamborghini and Aston Martin were making <100 cars a year.
When my father’s new Aston couldn’t select reverse gear, and so was stuck in his drive, he rang them and ended up speaking to Victor Gaunlett about getting it back to the factory.
I was talking to someone who has a passion for old Lambos about getting an Aventador. He said, “why would you do that, they’ve made so many.”
With supercars, both the demand and supply side of the equation has totally changed over the last 20/25 years.
But supply is now clearly greater than demand.
Ferruccio said:
As was pointed out with some numbers earlier, production numbers have totally changed.
I agree, and it is something that these manufacturers now have to survive unless they want to adopt a model like Pagani or KoenigseggFerruccio said:
But supply is now clearly greater than demand.
I don't know if you refer to models or mere numbers. But if it's about numbers, I don't completely agree. All these manufacturers (except Porsche for its cheaper models probably) produce just to match the demand. But it is true that the industry is simply different now. Gassing Station | Supercar General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff