This indecision is killing me!!
Discussion
MDL111 said:
And in terms of McL if the 570 interior is not to your taste, how about a 650S?
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
Amazing value!!https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
ferdi p said:
MDL111 said:
And in terms of McL if the 570 interior is not to your taste, how about a 650S?
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
Amazing value!!https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
MDL111 said:
And given you seem to like Astons, I personally think this looks more special than the DB11
https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
This or a V12V gets my vote for sure. Mclaren never, Alfa QV Giulia is some car also.https://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/...
WCZ - Thanks, the F12 is out of reach and I hadn't looked at the FF as I thought that was out of scope as well, but the FF that has just gone on Autotrader at Imperials looks v nice. Does anybody have experience of Imperials as a seller, or indeed that particular car? I assume many of their cars are SOR?
What is the FF like to use in the real world - taking it on the commute occasionally etc? No doubt it would be ideal for a Euro tour; I will have to re-watch Chris Harris' review of his own FF.
What is the FF like to use in the real world - taking it on the commute occasionally etc? No doubt it would be ideal for a Euro tour; I will have to re-watch Chris Harris' review of his own FF.
Interesting dilemma OP I think in situations like this it is best deciding essentially whether you want a contemporary or older car the latter of which usually comes with the obvious added expense of greater warranty costs and general obsolescence not that that is necessarily a bad thing but advantages generally include less depreciation on certain cars at least.
I agree the 570 S is a tempting package at the money and is a very capable if somewhat detached entry level McLaren which makes a good daily and weekends away car but is lacking involvement overall. As with all Maclarens depreciation will continue to be an issue despite the cars having dropped substantially already. You need to check out any used Mclaren with a fine tooth comb and they are very spec sensitive even sub £100k.
The Maserati is one of a dying breed which sounds good but performance overall is disappointing and economy is dire mainly because of the cars lardiness. The MC Stradale ups the game slightly and imo these cars could become quite collectable in the medium term.
You mention the 992 but whilst these are extremely capable and rapid cars even in their current early production vanilla model guise the GTS is some way off yet and will probably be over budget.
The 991.1 GT3 is a great package at the money with late 2014/2015 cars with 15k to 20k miles now at around list price. PDK S gearbox is a peach and better than the 458 f1 imo and the later cars have revised engines coming with an original 10 year Porsche warranty. Brilliant 9k limit rev hungry engine and fantastic dynamics, these make excellent and extremely rapid road cars with added involvement which few other cars can match. Quite a challenge to extract the best performance and obviously brilliant on track as these are road cars which are perfectly suited to any track.
You say you don't want hardcore but quite a few of the 332 UK 991 GT3s came with sports seats not buckets and these comfort cars are quite a bit cheaper than the clubsports and can be found at OPCs.
Good luck with whatever car you decide on.
I agree the 570 S is a tempting package at the money and is a very capable if somewhat detached entry level McLaren which makes a good daily and weekends away car but is lacking involvement overall. As with all Maclarens depreciation will continue to be an issue despite the cars having dropped substantially already. You need to check out any used Mclaren with a fine tooth comb and they are very spec sensitive even sub £100k.
The Maserati is one of a dying breed which sounds good but performance overall is disappointing and economy is dire mainly because of the cars lardiness. The MC Stradale ups the game slightly and imo these cars could become quite collectable in the medium term.
You mention the 992 but whilst these are extremely capable and rapid cars even in their current early production vanilla model guise the GTS is some way off yet and will probably be over budget.
The 991.1 GT3 is a great package at the money with late 2014/2015 cars with 15k to 20k miles now at around list price. PDK S gearbox is a peach and better than the 458 f1 imo and the later cars have revised engines coming with an original 10 year Porsche warranty. Brilliant 9k limit rev hungry engine and fantastic dynamics, these make excellent and extremely rapid road cars with added involvement which few other cars can match. Quite a challenge to extract the best performance and obviously brilliant on track as these are road cars which are perfectly suited to any track.
You say you don't want hardcore but quite a few of the 332 UK 991 GT3s came with sports seats not buckets and these comfort cars are quite a bit cheaper than the clubsports and can be found at OPCs.
Good luck with whatever car you decide on.
I have had a similar dilemma recently. So here is my 2p's worth.
Having owned an immaculate low mileage F430 Spider for 4 + years I felt I had scratched the Ferrari itch. Great to drive, great sense of occasion and you really get a sense of pride of ownership. It's true when you hear "yes but, it's a Ferrari". The only car I have owned for 4 years and sold for more than I paid for it (I bought it from Maranello and paid top dollar). However, now starting to feel a little 'old tech'. I fancied a 599 but a convertible was very high on my priority list.
So in April 18 I went for a new 991.2 GTS Cab. Immense driving machine, nothing not to like, but it lacked a sense of occasion and 'its just a Porsche' I missed the drama. Never considered a McLaren, just too easy to drive and not at all easy to get in and out of (okay if you are 30+ - I'm not)
So I went for a Vanquish Volante. Ticks all the boxes for me. Stunning to look at, sounds fantastic - I love it.
GG33
av185 - Thanks for you thoughts and experiences. Like you I do feel that McLaren prices will continue to depreciate, possibly more quickly that some other high-end marques, for a little while yet at least. This does play into the buying equation in part because whilst to some £100k isn't that much, to us it represents a lot of hard work. Of course whatever we get will depreciate (we aware and content with associated running costs) and this is why the car has to feel very special to justify spending the money.
I can absolutely see the attraction of the 991 GT3 - wife not quite so much - and even though the car is undoubtedly very special, I think GG33's take on Porsche ownership is how we would probably feel. We enjoyed our 991 when we were driving it but didn't really give it a second thought when we weren't; I don't remember ever wanting to turn around and have a quick look at it when I had parked it somewhere, something I think I probably did every time I took the DBS out. Whilst I may plant my foot from time to time, I will never track whatever we buy as that's just not my thing, so fear such a focused machine would be wasted on us.
GG33 - Thanks for your input. The more we look/review/research I feel we are almost certainly going to end up in an AM or Ferrari. The 430 is possibly not the one, so it is likely between the Cal T and the FF. In terms of AM it is between DB11 and Vanquish, although I haven't ruled out the V12S.
I can absolutely see the attraction of the 991 GT3 - wife not quite so much - and even though the car is undoubtedly very special, I think GG33's take on Porsche ownership is how we would probably feel. We enjoyed our 991 when we were driving it but didn't really give it a second thought when we weren't; I don't remember ever wanting to turn around and have a quick look at it when I had parked it somewhere, something I think I probably did every time I took the DBS out. Whilst I may plant my foot from time to time, I will never track whatever we buy as that's just not my thing, so fear such a focused machine would be wasted on us.
GG33 - Thanks for your input. The more we look/review/research I feel we are almost certainly going to end up in an AM or Ferrari. The 430 is possibly not the one, so it is likely between the Cal T and the FF. In terms of AM it is between DB11 and Vanquish, although I haven't ruled out the V12S.
I think AM and Ferrari offer a similar level of ownership experience. They both have great heritage. The Cali T was my second choice, the real benefit being a metal roof. However, never having owned an Aston, I wanted to put a tick in that box plus there is a very slight feeling that the Cali T is the entry-level Ferrari, whereas the Vanquish was the top of the range. Maybe in a few years I will end up in a Portafino. :-)
GG33
Hi PJM986,
I have been through all the decision process you have for similar budgets, perhaps more but I don't have to spend up to my budget and am happy spending less. I initially bought a McLaren 12C and loved it. If you build the warranty cost into the ownership then a 12C or 650s would be a good place to start.
However I sold mine after 2.5 years and 14k miles as I fancied a change and a manual gearbox (but did try some auto's too). I discounted AM as I tried a V8V and a Vanquish and not my cup of tea. I briefly bought an F355 (childhood dream car) but the upkeep was catastrophic and made a £5k pa McLaren warranty seem like a bargain so I sold that and F cars are off the menu (including California) as everything newer then F355 does nothing for me, I did have a 1 hour go in a 458 and it was OK but felt a bit slow compared to McLarens, sounded nice but again not for me.
I tried a 991.2 GT3 manual, 991.2 GTS (manual & PDK), 991.2 T (manual) 650S, 720S, 570S, 570GT, Bentley GT, Hurracan (LP_610-4 & Performante), Alfa 4C, Exige 350 sport and 430 CUP, 981 Boxster Spyder, 996 Turbo, Alfa Gulia QF, original NSX. Quite a varied list.
The 991.2 GT3 was too hard for me, been in lots of GT3's of all ages and adore the idea of them but the reality doesn't work on bumpy UK roads for me.
991.2 GTS (PDK) was an amazing car, quick and well rounded but I found it ran out of 'puff' at the top end where a Porsche should be singing (turbos)
The GTS and T manuals should have suited me but I just didn't like the 7 speed gearbox. I borrowed a 991.2 GTS manual from a friend for several days and after the first day i actually got bored! Still a great car but wasn't for me.
Bentley, borrowed for a week, just no.
McLarens all drive great, 650S 5% better than 12C in all areas but I prefer look of the 12C. 570S is a great drivers car but again I can't gel with the looks. 570GT you can tell the difference with the S so if you drive back to back you will only want the S. 720S brutal fast in fact too fast and its fun lies at limits far beyond mine and the laws of the land, awesome car but the level of self restraint required would be too much for me. 675LT no dealer would give me a test drive so never got round to it but its No.1 on my list.
Huracan in all guises is too compromised for our yearly 2 week euro-trip so discounted, for what its worth standard car is a much nicer drive than performante IMHO.
Alfa 4C looks amazing and everything works well in isolation but nothing gels together, its a shame. Gulia QF felt like I was doing 40 and I was doing 80, no sensation of speed just over capable and therefore quite dull. Still love the idea of one but after driving I couldn't.
Original NSX a revelation, hugely likeable car, very mechanical, very precise, I loved it. Another one to get one day.
996 Turbos, tried a few but the spec I liked always over priced by owners with rose tinted glasses. I did offer on one that was way overpriced. The car has been sat there for 8 months now and been reduced to what I offered but too late and it still hasn't sold! Probably my favourite 911 along with a 993 (that I tried too and did really like, another for the future).
After all this I liked the Porsches but what did I like. NA for sure (not turbo), manual but a 6 speed not 7, would like a convertible but not a 911. Add in a mechanical LSD, 2 boots for touring and a stunning one off design and all roads lead to the 981 Boxster Spyder. I tried it and I just gelled immediately. To me it could have been £40k of £120k didn't matter. This car just all works together as one so I bought one. Done 4,000 miles in 3 months and its a keeper.
I also drove the Exige 350 and 430. Briefly bought a 350 as I loved it, like the Spyder it just suits me perfectly. However I sold it when the one off Type 49 430CUP popped up for sale, I couldn't resist. The Exige is such a physical, visceral experience like nothing else and as quick as a 12C with a manual box! However I couldn't tour with my wife in it so it was a selfish purchase but its the best of all I drove.
If I could only have 1 it would be the 981 Spyder. I strongly advise you to try one, it is the Porsche you can look back at and it sounds awesome. If you like the looks and autobox a 570 is an amazing drive and stunning value. On a track they are unreal. An Exige (in all guises but esp. 430) is like nothing else and I appreciate not for everyone but if you can put up with its daily and touring limitations, what a car!
I have been through all the decision process you have for similar budgets, perhaps more but I don't have to spend up to my budget and am happy spending less. I initially bought a McLaren 12C and loved it. If you build the warranty cost into the ownership then a 12C or 650s would be a good place to start.
However I sold mine after 2.5 years and 14k miles as I fancied a change and a manual gearbox (but did try some auto's too). I discounted AM as I tried a V8V and a Vanquish and not my cup of tea. I briefly bought an F355 (childhood dream car) but the upkeep was catastrophic and made a £5k pa McLaren warranty seem like a bargain so I sold that and F cars are off the menu (including California) as everything newer then F355 does nothing for me, I did have a 1 hour go in a 458 and it was OK but felt a bit slow compared to McLarens, sounded nice but again not for me.
I tried a 991.2 GT3 manual, 991.2 GTS (manual & PDK), 991.2 T (manual) 650S, 720S, 570S, 570GT, Bentley GT, Hurracan (LP_610-4 & Performante), Alfa 4C, Exige 350 sport and 430 CUP, 981 Boxster Spyder, 996 Turbo, Alfa Gulia QF, original NSX. Quite a varied list.
The 991.2 GT3 was too hard for me, been in lots of GT3's of all ages and adore the idea of them but the reality doesn't work on bumpy UK roads for me.
991.2 GTS (PDK) was an amazing car, quick and well rounded but I found it ran out of 'puff' at the top end where a Porsche should be singing (turbos)
The GTS and T manuals should have suited me but I just didn't like the 7 speed gearbox. I borrowed a 991.2 GTS manual from a friend for several days and after the first day i actually got bored! Still a great car but wasn't for me.
Bentley, borrowed for a week, just no.
McLarens all drive great, 650S 5% better than 12C in all areas but I prefer look of the 12C. 570S is a great drivers car but again I can't gel with the looks. 570GT you can tell the difference with the S so if you drive back to back you will only want the S. 720S brutal fast in fact too fast and its fun lies at limits far beyond mine and the laws of the land, awesome car but the level of self restraint required would be too much for me. 675LT no dealer would give me a test drive so never got round to it but its No.1 on my list.
Huracan in all guises is too compromised for our yearly 2 week euro-trip so discounted, for what its worth standard car is a much nicer drive than performante IMHO.
Alfa 4C looks amazing and everything works well in isolation but nothing gels together, its a shame. Gulia QF felt like I was doing 40 and I was doing 80, no sensation of speed just over capable and therefore quite dull. Still love the idea of one but after driving I couldn't.
Original NSX a revelation, hugely likeable car, very mechanical, very precise, I loved it. Another one to get one day.
996 Turbos, tried a few but the spec I liked always over priced by owners with rose tinted glasses. I did offer on one that was way overpriced. The car has been sat there for 8 months now and been reduced to what I offered but too late and it still hasn't sold! Probably my favourite 911 along with a 993 (that I tried too and did really like, another for the future).
After all this I liked the Porsches but what did I like. NA for sure (not turbo), manual but a 6 speed not 7, would like a convertible but not a 911. Add in a mechanical LSD, 2 boots for touring and a stunning one off design and all roads lead to the 981 Boxster Spyder. I tried it and I just gelled immediately. To me it could have been £40k of £120k didn't matter. This car just all works together as one so I bought one. Done 4,000 miles in 3 months and its a keeper.
I also drove the Exige 350 and 430. Briefly bought a 350 as I loved it, like the Spyder it just suits me perfectly. However I sold it when the one off Type 49 430CUP popped up for sale, I couldn't resist. The Exige is such a physical, visceral experience like nothing else and as quick as a 12C with a manual box! However I couldn't tour with my wife in it so it was a selfish purchase but its the best of all I drove.
If I could only have 1 it would be the 981 Spyder. I strongly advise you to try one, it is the Porsche you can look back at and it sounds awesome. If you like the looks and autobox a 570 is an amazing drive and stunning value. On a track they are unreal. An Exige (in all guises but esp. 430) is like nothing else and I appreciate not for everyone but if you can put up with its daily and touring limitations, what a car!
Edited by Bispal on Monday 5th August 10:50
Bispal said:
Hi PJM986,
…. lots of really sensible and useful stuff....
That's a really excellent post and offers lots of detailed personal experiences, but it also highlights how personal such a decision is.…. lots of really sensible and useful stuff....
OP, the only people who can guide you into your next car are you two, everything else is just other peoples experiences which can be based upon detailed knowledge (as above) or personal blinkered prejudices. If you can't find 'the one' which you really really must have, stick the money in the bank and wait until something crops up that triggers that 'must have' reaction IMHO.
The Surveyor said:
Bispal said:
Hi PJM986,
…. lots of really sensible and useful stuff....
That's a really excellent post and offers lots of detailed personal experiences, but it also highlights how personal such a decision is.…. lots of really sensible and useful stuff....
OP, the only people who can guide you into your next car are you two, everything else is just other peoples experiences which can be based upon detailed knowledge (as above) or personal blinkered prejudices. If you can't find 'the one' which you really really must have, stick the money in the bank and wait until something crops up that triggers that 'must have' reaction IMHO.
Bipal - Thanks for the taking the time to share you experiences and very interesting to read why you made the decisions you did. You have clearly been out in pretty much all of the cars that we initially considered, but the fact that AMs simply aren't for you shows our tastes probably differ as we already know the marque and enjoyed the 2 we owned.
I have seen the 981 Spider, but I just don't think it will give us the full experience we are looking for. Interesting that you like the 996 as we preferred our 996 40th Anniversary over the 991. I have driven an Exige and it reminded me of my old VX220, which was fine in my 20s but is too harsh for me these days.
The Surveyor - I do take your point and don't disagree about the subjectivity of each experience. However, I like to make informed decisions when I have the luxury of time to do so and learning from experiences (and mistakes) of others is something I personally like to do. I believe all our feelings and decisions are influenced by many conscious and subconscious influences, which in turn are fed by many intrinsic and extrinsic factors. Already in this thread points have been made by others that are probably relevant to us, which I wouldn't have considered until they potentially became an issue. The last thing I want is buyer's regret 2 weeks/months after a purchase because I got too wrapped up in the moment and the money was burning a hole in my pocket. I have been there and done that and vowed not to do it again, as Hegel said: "We learn from history that we do not learn from history". Mind you, he did also say: "To be independent of public opinion is the first formal condition of achieving anything great.”
I have seen the 981 Spider, but I just don't think it will give us the full experience we are looking for. Interesting that you like the 996 as we preferred our 996 40th Anniversary over the 991. I have driven an Exige and it reminded me of my old VX220, which was fine in my 20s but is too harsh for me these days.
The Surveyor - I do take your point and don't disagree about the subjectivity of each experience. However, I like to make informed decisions when I have the luxury of time to do so and learning from experiences (and mistakes) of others is something I personally like to do. I believe all our feelings and decisions are influenced by many conscious and subconscious influences, which in turn are fed by many intrinsic and extrinsic factors. Already in this thread points have been made by others that are probably relevant to us, which I wouldn't have considered until they potentially became an issue. The last thing I want is buyer's regret 2 weeks/months after a purchase because I got too wrapped up in the moment and the money was burning a hole in my pocket. I have been there and done that and vowed not to do it again, as Hegel said: "We learn from history that we do not learn from history". Mind you, he did also say: "To be independent of public opinion is the first formal condition of achieving anything great.”
PJM986 said:
WCZ - Thanks, the F12 is out of reach and I hadn't looked at the FF as I thought that was out of scope as well, but the FF that has just gone on Autotrader at Imperials looks v nice. Does anybody have experience of Imperials as a seller, or indeed that particular car? I assume many of their cars are SOR?
What is the FF like to use in the real world - taking it on the commute occasionally etc? No doubt it would be ideal for a Euro tour; I will have to re-watch Chris Harris' review of his own FF.
I can give some feedback on the FF. I have done c. 60k km over the last 4ish years in my FF - bought it with c 11k km on the clock (car now 7 years old). List price was c. 330k and I paid 180k for it at the time. What is the FF like to use in the real world - taking it on the commute occasionally etc? No doubt it would be ideal for a Euro tour; I will have to re-watch Chris Harris' review of his own FF.
I would keep the car in warranty for peace of mind. Mine had gearbox work twice (not a new box, but was leaking) and I do not want to know what a new box or a new 4RM system cost (plus the rather punchy hourly rates of Ferrari dealers). The engine is probably bullet proof, but as I do a lot of miles, I'd rather have a warranty if it needs a rebuild.
The car throws the typical Ferrari warning lights from time to time (I usually get engine management system and electrical system yellow warning lights on a regular basis, but they don't have any discernible effect, so I ignore them).
Car is very comfortable and surprisingly nimble for its size and weight, although not comparable to a lighter weight mid-engined car.
The acceleration from pretty much any speed to about 300 kph is more than enough for me, although I quite a bit slower than the newer cars ala various McLarens (judging by the numbers, no first hand experience). The sound it makes in the upper reaches of the rev band is quite intoxicating, sounds so much better than my Scuderia.
The 4RM system works really well and I have never gotten stuck, although it does act as snow plough from time to time due to the relatively low ride height.
The rear seats are comfortable even for longer distances (I am only about 5'9, but even taller people should be comfortable in the rear).
I pre-paid next year's service when extending the warranty. I think the discounted price was 1,100 Euros and normal price 1,800 Euros (not sure if incl/ex VAT and not sure if this is a big one or a small one - would need to look at the manual to find out).
People complain about the infotainment, but I find it perfectly adequate. the Nav works, I can connect my iphone for music - so it does everything I need. It is not comparable to the equivalent on a new Porsche/BMW etc though.
You can put the rear seats down, so there is a lot of space for luggage/bulky items or a dog (in my case).
It is fine in multi-storey car parks, although opening the long doors can be a challenge in tight spaces (leaving the window done helps with egress).
Generally I think it is about the best daily driver on can have (I spent quite a bit of time driving a Lusso, which is more comfortable, but I prefer the FF - has more character imo). I would not recommend buying one as a special weekend car though as that is imo not where the car excels - it is a much more special replacement for a Panamera or BMW/Merc/Audi etc in my view. A 599 is the better option if that is the intended use.
Apart from one gearbox fault, the car has never left me stranded (well and once because I let the battery go flat).
Happy to answer any questions you might have.
PJM986 said:
WCZ - Thanks, the F12 is out of reach and I hadn't looked at the FF as I thought that was out of scope as well, but the FF that has just gone on Autotrader at Imperials looks v nice. Does anybody have experience of Imperials as a seller, or indeed that particular car? I assume many of their cars are SOR?
What is the FF like to use in the real world - taking it on the commute occasionally etc? No doubt it would be ideal for a Euro tour; I will have to re-watch Chris Harris' review of his own FF.
I know a couple of people who daily them without any issues.What is the FF like to use in the real world - taking it on the commute occasionally etc? No doubt it would be ideal for a Euro tour; I will have to re-watch Chris Harris' review of his own FF.
at current prices they are probably the best value used ferrari and have always been under rated
with the novitec exhaust it sounds, well just listen: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aBzDy42lsm0
Gassing Station | Supercar General | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff