Collecting Cars auction results

Collecting Cars auction results

TOPIC CLOSED
TOPIC CLOSED
Author
Discussion

9Elfer

49 posts

57 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all

It looks like some of the posts regarding myself and the 612 owner was deleted. That’s very odd as I believe nothing there was against any rules.

I am totally in sync with 21ATS and Chieb regarding their views on CC.

There is nothing wrong with DK selling the car but there is something wrong if they try to circumvent their responsibilities by ducking behind a ‘managed’ sale act.

To me, if DK was being paid to manage the sale, they are acting as a dealer. If my son lists the car on my behalf, I can argue it’s a managed sale!

bish_345

103 posts

33 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all
21ATS said:
thecook101 said:
Easy gents. Maybe check the car in question before insinuating that either myself or DK are attempting to fool anyone into buying sub-standard stock.
Understand very clearly I am not questioning the car in this or any other listing. It is the manner in which it is being sold that I'm questioning.

It could be the most perfect example of whatever model it is, or it couldn't. The issue I have is a motor trader (a very prominent one in this case) are lending their name to the sale of a vehicle (to provide a percieved quality or provenance) and being paid to "manage" the sale. However they are not fulfilling their legal requirment as a motor trader by providing any form of guarantee should a major problem reveal itself after the sale.

It's a private sale, end of story. I believe the "managed" status is misleading to potential buyers.

I believe they are circumventing thier obligations as a motor trader by trading in this manner.

Is it avoidance or evasion? That's the critical point.

This is how it works:-

CC list the car - they are an advertising platform only, there is no comeback or legal responsibility to accurately describe the car. The only obligation is reputation.

The managing agent (in this case DK) act a "broker" - they are simply introducing a buyer to a vendor and enabling a transaction to take place. They are then paid a fee by the vendor for their services. Legally this is being described as a private sale.

Should there be a catastrophic failure with the car on the drive home - tough, it's a private sale - there's no comeback.

Should it turn out to be stolen or cloned at a later date and not have been recorded on HPi, tough - your problem, no comeback with either the broker or the advertising platform. You see the problem.

Want to take out finance on the car? That's whole other can of worms.

The main issue being that all this is being presented in a way that you're dealing with a motor dealer or motor trader and you're not.


Edited by 21ATS on Thursday 22 October 23:19
I offer no opinion on the rights or wrongs of the "managed sale" concept. However, in the interests of clarity, I would point out that whilst DK (among others) are listed in the blurb as having worked on the 512 BB in question, the listing clearly stated that the seller was "Private", not "Managed". You are correct that some other CC cars (including the upcoming Clapton 612) are listed as "Managed", but the 512 BB wasn't one of them.
As for the merits or otherwise of the 512 BB, someone clearly thought that for "fairly rough" private sale money (127k) it was worth taking a punt on a car that at least seems to have had the mechanicals taken care of over the last 26 years.


9Elfer

49 posts

57 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all
The 512bb is just a bit of a rough and previously crashed car. It’s been disclosed and nothing wrong.

I think the point of discussion is whether DK who is getting paid to organize the sale of the really nice 612 on CC, should be sold as a trade sale l, rather than a ‘managed’ which is essentially a misleading version of private sale.

Drclarke

1,080 posts

136 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all
Overnight, Have some posts questioning the collecting cars business ethics been deleted?

21ATS

255 posts

35 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all
9Elfer said:
I think the point of discussion is whether DK who is getting paid to organize the sale of the really nice 612 on CC, should be sold as a trade sale l, rather than a ‘managed’ which is essentially a misleading version of private sale.
This exactly.

Lets take the 612 sale as an example.

The owner has employed DK to manage the sale on their behalf. CC has clearly stated on their listing that the sale is "managed".

The issue here is the status of the sale of a motor vehicle can only be one of two - Private or Trade. There is no third "goldilocks" option where all the professionals get paid and none of them are required to take any legal responsibility.

Understand that I don't feel anything underhand is going on here, I get the feeling CC is doing everything it can to be transaparent about how a transaction is taking place. However in doing so I think they have inadvertantly shifted liability to the company managing the sale.

When selling on line or advertising on line the vendor doesn't simply get to chose if a transaction is Private or Trade, the nature of the way transaction is undertaken determines this. That nature of the transaction is defined by the consumer protection regulations which also encompases distance selling regulations.

More details here:-

https://www.wholesaleclearance.co.uk/blog/differen...


The managing agent (in this case DK) are a professional motor trader being paid by an owner to sell their car via an online platform. CC. This is a trade sale. I think it would be very difficult indeed for DK to legally claim it was anything but - simply because CC are stating they are managing the sale. CC (like eBay) have no responsibility whatsoever for the transaction.

I think DK will take a look at this and have a rethink - they'll see CC is getting 6% for advertising/hosting the sale but that DK are in fact on the hook as a dealer should any poo hit the fan afterwards. All simply because CC are stating this is a "Managed" sale.

Interestingly on the information column on Trade sales CC chose to add the following:-



If they wanted to be truly transparent, adding a similar statement to Private (and managed if they chose to continue with that category - but I think that's subject to being legally defined) that as a buyer you have no rights whatsoever would probably be the way forward.

Edited by 21ATS on Friday 23 October 09:05

Bispal

933 posts

114 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all
I see there is a 996 GT3 coming up being sold by Prestige Cars of Kent. I really don't understand why a dealer who apparently knows about super cars and rare / prestige cars would service a car like this themselves? It has an unblemished OPC and renowned specialist service history then they ruin the value and desirability of this one owner car by servicing it themselves.

This isn't the first time I have seen this, it seems to to be a new trend with many 'prestige' dealers to save a few hundred quid but its very short sighted. Why do this? It just seems crazy to me?



OSMojo

60 posts

38 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all
I can't believe that 552 boxer went for £127k the ass really has fallen out of the supercar market.

ferrisbueller

26,079 posts

190 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all
I think it also missed a service. They've had it a while.

There was a mint black one which belonged to a PH-er previously which suffered a similar fate.

I'm guessing some were bought by the trade at a high point in the market and they've been faced with taking a loss. I don't know why they wouldn't protect the integrity and value of the car while it's in their care. It's a bit of a waste.

9Elfer

49 posts

57 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all
Drclarke said:
Overnight, Have some posts questioning the collecting cars business ethics been deleted?
Yes seems probably 6-8 posts are gone.

Would think that means something key/of consumer value is being raised here.

9Elfer

49 posts

57 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all
OSMojo said:
I can't believe that 552 boxer went for £127k the ass really has fallen out of the supercar market.
The condition was questionable though.

What would a decent one be worth at trade in? 150?

anonymous-user

17 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all
9Elfer said:
Drclarke said:
Overnight, Have some posts questioning the collecting cars business ethics been deleted?
Yes seems probably 6-8 posts are gone.

Would think that means something key/of consumer value is being raised here.
No conspiracy chaps, my posts were deleted as I was advertising the sale of my car.

9Elfer

49 posts

57 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all
21ATS said:
The issue here is the status of the sale of a motor vehicle can only be one of two - Private or Trade. There is no third "goldilocks" option where all the professionals get paid and none of them are required to take any legal responsibility.

Edited by 21ATS on Friday 23 October 09:05
The managed option is trying to pretend to be a dealer sale without protecting the consumer to the consumer rights act but giving them an escape door and pretending to be a private sale when something ajar happens.

Is Donald trump a shareholder in CC?

drcarrera

663 posts

188 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all
Isn't it simply based on the ownership of the car being sold?
Trade - trader owns the car
Private - private owner owns the car
Managed - Trader selling on behalf of private owner (aka SOR)

So shouldn't the consumer rights be the same as a SOR sale from a dealer?

21ATS

255 posts

35 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all
drcarrera said:
Isn't it simply based on the ownership of the car being sold?
Trade - trader owns the car
Private - private owner owns the car
Managed - Trader selling on behalf of private owner (aka SOR)

So shouldn't the consumer rights be the same as a SOR sale from a dealer?
IMO yes, CC claim it's a private sale and not subject to any consumer rights whatsoever.

I disagree and I'm reasonably sure the law would too should it be tested.

Still this would put the managing trader on the hook, not CC.

andymc

6,617 posts

170 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all
No difference from Manheim and BCA is it?

Trevor555

2,573 posts

47 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all
andymc said:
No difference from Manheim and BCA is it?
Their indemnity fee guarantees you title to the car, or your money back.


9Elfer

49 posts

57 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all
drcarrera said:
Isn't it simply based on the ownership of the car being sold?
Trade - trader owns the car
Private - private owner owns the car
Managed - Trader selling on behalf of private owner (aka SOR)

So shouldn't the consumer rights be the same as a SOR sale from a dealer?
I agree with this logic but from the CC site you can tell they don’t think managed is the same as Trade as they don’t explicitly state you are protected by the consumer rights.

Bobo W

663 posts

215 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all
9Elfer said:
drcarrera said:
Isn't it simply based on the ownership of the car being sold?
Trade - trader owns the car
Private - private owner owns the car
Managed - Trader selling on behalf of private owner (aka SOR)

So shouldn't the consumer rights be the same as a SOR sale from a dealer?
I agree with this logic but from the CC site you can tell they don’t think managed is the same as Trade as they don’t explicitly state you are protected by the consumer rights.
CC is an auction platform - they are not an auction house or trader they merely facilitate the process between two private individuals - think eBay if it makes it easier - the rights therefore are essentially the same as a private sale - for the lawyers amongst us it would be interesting to see their take on online auctions but I imagine even the final price would be treated as an offer and the contract only made when the seller makes contact and gives payment details

Ferruccio

1,448 posts

82 months

Friday 23rd October 2020
quotequote all
Bobo W said:
CC is an auction platform - they are not an auction house or trader they merely facilitate the process between two private individuals - think eBay if it makes it easier - the rights therefore are essentially the same as a private sale - for the lawyers amongst us it would be interesting to see their take on online auctions but I imagine even the final price would be treated as an offer and the contract only made when the seller makes contact and gives payment details
I’d be rather surprised if a judge, being asked to opine on the point, wouldn’t hold that a trade vendor selling a vehicle, was a trade vendor selling a vehicle.

Bobo W

663 posts

215 months

Saturday 24th October 2020
quotequote all
Ferruccio said:
Bobo W said:
CC is an auction platform - they are not an auction house or trader they merely facilitate the process between two private individuals - think eBay if it makes it easier - the rights therefore are essentially the same as a private sale - for the lawyers amongst us it would be interesting to see their take on online auctions but I imagine even the final price would be treated as an offer and the contract only made when the seller makes contact and gives payment details
I’d be rather surprised if a judge, being asked to opine on the point, wouldn’t hold that a trade vendor selling a vehicle, was a trade vendor selling a vehicle.
I'm not sure I follow? CC is just a means of getting buyer & seller together, they are no more a dealer than I am irrespective of who the backers of this venture are. So if I buy / sell to another private individual through CC it's a private sale, but if I buy from a trader through CC then it's a trade sale and all the rights that subsequently come with it. It all seems quite simple to me, but maybe I'm just a simpleton?


TOPIC CLOSED
TOPIC CLOSED