where has the flair gone in ferraris?
Discussion
Sh!t Manu chill man! 
You know, I think we're all gonna have to agree to differ. I agree that the 550 is a great looking car, but for me the Vanquish carries it off with just a bit more style, and looks *fan-bloody-tastic* in met BRG. Only dissappointment for me is the excess plastic in the interior & paddle change box only. As regards speed, I'd be MORE than up for a mini race series. We could start at Brands, do some public roads on the Isle of Man and wind up at Cadwell/Oulton Park? Whaddya reckon? Now then, who's got a Vanquish to loan me?
You know, I think we're all gonna have to agree to differ. I agree that the 550 is a great looking car, but for me the Vanquish carries it off with just a bit more style, and looks *fan-bloody-tastic* in met BRG. Only dissappointment for me is the excess plastic in the interior & paddle change box only. As regards speed, I'd be MORE than up for a mini race series. We could start at Brands, do some public roads on the Isle of Man and wind up at Cadwell/Oulton Park? Whaddya reckon? Now then, who's got a Vanquish to loan me?Steve, I was intending on sampling the interior of your Chimaera when we met but as I was walking up to see it our "Gentlemen please start your engines" moment materialised, so I had to leg it back to my ride in order to ensure that I wasn't left behind.
Manu, re 550: As said before it does look bad, people do stop and stare (not as often in black I bet though). My problem with the 550 is that it, well, how do I put it..., well, (feeling a Derestrictor moment coming on).... It just doesn't give me a tingle in my bollocks, if you know what I mean. Wow, nearly a Derestrictor quote, I think. Wording is not quite as elegant, but I await an lesson from the master himself....
Its just too much of a GT, rather like the 456, for me. I prefer wild action cars, rather more like the 360. The Testarossa was a wild mad car. Its looking a little dated for sure, but it still looks the business.
Manu, re 550: As said before it does look bad, people do stop and stare (not as often in black I bet though). My problem with the 550 is that it, well, how do I put it..., well, (feeling a Derestrictor moment coming on).... It just doesn't give me a tingle in my bollocks, if you know what I mean. Wow, nearly a Derestrictor quote, I think. Wording is not quite as elegant, but I await an lesson from the master himself....
Its just too much of a GT, rather like the 456, for me. I prefer wild action cars, rather more like the 360. The Testarossa was a wild mad car. Its looking a little dated for sure, but it still looks the business.
It's a case of different horses for different courses 
Yet again I completely agree with you Manu.
I don't know how anybody could say Ferrari has lost it's flair. Take one look at the pictures in the topic "Ultimate 360". Then come back here and tell me they aint the most beautiful, fantastic balls-out cars you've ever seen. The same goes for the 550 - Pure Class. However, I wouldn't have it at the top of my Ferrari list - As good as it is.
I'm going with Ninja on this one. It has to be a 355/360. I have never seen, heard, felt anything quite like it. To me, and IMHO of course, these are the cars that spell FERRARI PASSION more than any other.
BUT hey, what do I know, what do I care. I love em ALL.
Yet again I completely agree with you Manu.
I don't know how anybody could say Ferrari has lost it's flair. Take one look at the pictures in the topic "Ultimate 360". Then come back here and tell me they aint the most beautiful, fantastic balls-out cars you've ever seen. The same goes for the 550 - Pure Class. However, I wouldn't have it at the top of my Ferrari list - As good as it is.
I'm going with Ninja on this one. It has to be a 355/360. I have never seen, heard, felt anything quite like it. To me, and IMHO of course, these are the cars that spell FERRARI PASSION more than any other.
BUT hey, what do I know, what do I care. I love em ALL.
manu, I have no logical argument for a person who claims the 550 is better looking than a Vanquish - you are clearly insane.
As for 'flair', I'm sorry but modern Ferraris do not have it IMO. I've actually sat in, driven, and taken a good look at Ferraris in the metal and whilst I think they are beautiful (with the exception of the 550 - sorry manu) I don't think they have flair. Equally I have driven TVRs (and own a Chimaera) and for me the Tuscan is stunning, the Cerbera elegant, the Chimaera and Griffith classic British sports car and the Tamora, well, rather ugly.
Regarding the Tuscan and 360 parked side by side, I honestly think if Ferrari had built the Tuscan and TVR the 360 everyone would have been staring at the Tuscan. Let's face it (and this is coming from a big TVR fan) the Ferrari brand carries far more kudos with the general public than TVR - its the brand that makes everyone stare at the car, not what it actually looks like. I'd stare at an Enzo because it's striking, but it's also not beautiful, the same goes for the TVR Speed 12.
Talking about the ommision of spoiler - McLaren started that with the F1, just like they did the twin radiators at each side of the nose (as copied by Porsche).
Finally, Lambos have flair. They might not be as beautiful as Ferraris, but they do have flair.
One more thing,, just to show I'm not totally biased towards TVRs, IMO the most beautiful convertible I've ever seen was the original Jaguar F-Type prototype (I saw that in the metal too). Typical they canned it. 
Just my 2 cents..
As for 'flair', I'm sorry but modern Ferraris do not have it IMO. I've actually sat in, driven, and taken a good look at Ferraris in the metal and whilst I think they are beautiful (with the exception of the 550 - sorry manu) I don't think they have flair. Equally I have driven TVRs (and own a Chimaera) and for me the Tuscan is stunning, the Cerbera elegant, the Chimaera and Griffith classic British sports car and the Tamora, well, rather ugly.
Regarding the Tuscan and 360 parked side by side, I honestly think if Ferrari had built the Tuscan and TVR the 360 everyone would have been staring at the Tuscan. Let's face it (and this is coming from a big TVR fan) the Ferrari brand carries far more kudos with the general public than TVR - its the brand that makes everyone stare at the car, not what it actually looks like. I'd stare at an Enzo because it's striking, but it's also not beautiful, the same goes for the TVR Speed 12.
Talking about the ommision of spoiler - McLaren started that with the F1, just like they did the twin radiators at each side of the nose (as copied by Porsche).
Finally, Lambos have flair. They might not be as beautiful as Ferraris, but they do have flair.
One more thing,
, just to show I'm not totally biased towards TVRs, IMO the most beautiful convertible I've ever seen was the original Jaguar F-Type prototype (I saw that in the metal too). Typical they canned it. Just my 2 cents..
In the November issue of 'CAR' there's a short article on the changes in Fords' middle of the road motor over a 40 year period. They compare the Cortina (with ban the bomb tail lights) and the Focus. Three things strike you:
1) How much design has evolved over 40 years
2) The original Cortina looks pretty good but is probably not viable with todays speeds & safety regulations
3) The actual cost of cars has come down a lot; from 43 weeks average pay in 1962 to 26 weeks today.
It's not just Ferrari, all car design has evolved over time. In fact the only consistent design I can think of over this period is the 911. And wouldn't you just hate it if we all liked exactly the same thing- we'd all be driving the same damn car.
PS Daz Saw a nice black GT2 in Lancasters. Sounded good too!
1) How much design has evolved over 40 years
2) The original Cortina looks pretty good but is probably not viable with todays speeds & safety regulations
3) The actual cost of cars has come down a lot; from 43 weeks average pay in 1962 to 26 weeks today.
It's not just Ferrari, all car design has evolved over time. In fact the only consistent design I can think of over this period is the 911. And wouldn't you just hate it if we all liked exactly the same thing- we'd all be driving the same damn car.
PS Daz Saw a nice black GT2 in Lancasters. Sounded good too!
456mgt said:
PS Daz Saw a nice black GT2 in Lancasters. Sounded good too!
Hang on Kev, got to get a bet down with Ajay!
Did Mrs mgt like the GT2?
DAZ
I like GT2s (and all 911s), but my 4WD has saved me from myself in the wet on the Nurburgring, once you've experienced that only a racing driver would consider swapping to the GT2 (IMHO).
I like GT2s (and all 911s), but my 4WD has saved me from myself in the wet on the Nurburgring, once you've experienced that only a racing driver would consider swapping to the GT2 (IMHO)
Oh I agree with you; far too tempting as a daily driver and it's too intimidating for the Mrs. Bloody nice though!
Dazren said:
roadsweeper said: manu, I have no logical argument for a person who claims the 550 is better looking than a Vanquish - you are clearly insane.
Put me down for the madhouse as well then.
DAZ
Me too! Like the Vanquish, but would not consider it 550 league.
Mungo, has Manu tried to bribe you with a tubi?
I'll never agree, NEVER!!!
Seriously though, I agree its beautiful, just isn't my thing. More of a "love the look of one, but don't ache inside to own one". Mind you, looks were secondary to me when considering to buy. SOUND was most important. 355 wins hands down everytime.
Now a Testarossa, that sounds the nuts!
And if we're talking sublime looks and 'I'd lose 3 inches to own one'(well some of us can cope better than others I suppose ) desirablity, then the 60's/70's represnted the greatest era of the motor car ever: 250GTO, 250GT SWB, 250 Lusso, 275GT/B, 365GTB4 Daytona, Lambo Muira, Aston DB4 GT, E-type etc etc... Basically this is the kind of stuff that *floats my boat* and on the back of the lotto win I'm gonna have soon I'll have at least 5 of these stunning vehicles. I understand the useability of the moderns but for me just a little bit of the passion of these vehicles has gone. I'm not blaming Ferrari at all its those bl00dy finger up annex eurobots sitting in Brussels saying your cars must do no more than 12.5mph be quieter than a fridge and have 2700 airbags and 4.5 tons of protective steel built in. I think you get my meaning...
) desirablity, then the 60's/70's represnted the greatest era of the motor car ever: 250GTO, 250GT SWB, 250 Lusso, 275GT/B, 365GTB4 Daytona, Lambo Muira, Aston DB4 GT, E-type etc etc... Basically this is the kind of stuff that *floats my boat* and on the back of the lotto win I'm gonna have soon I'll have at least 5 of these stunning vehicles. I understand the useability of the moderns but for me just a little bit of the passion of these vehicles has gone. I'm not blaming Ferrari at all its those bl00dy finger up annex eurobots sitting in Brussels saying your cars must do no more than 12.5mph be quieter than a fridge and have 2700 airbags and 4.5 tons of protective steel built in. I think you get my meaning...
roadsweeper said:
As for 'flair', I'm sorry but modern Ferraris do not have it IMO. I've actually sat in, driven, and taken a good look at Ferraris in the metal and whilst I think they are beautiful (with the exception of the 550 - sorry manu) I don't think they have flair. Equally I have driven TVRs (and own a Chimaera) and for me the Tuscan is stunning, the Cerbera elegant, the Chimaera and Griffith classic British sports car and the Tamora, well, rather ugly.
Regarding the Tuscan and 360 parked side by side, I honestly think if Ferrari had built the Tuscan and TVR the 360 everyone would have been staring at the Tuscan. Let's face it (and this is coming from a big TVR fan) the Ferrari brand carries far more kudos with the general public than TVR - its the brand that makes everyone stare at the car, not what it actually looks like. I'd stare at an Enzo because it's striking, but it's also not beautiful, the same goes for the TVR Speed 12.
With regards to 550 vs Aston, the interior of the 550 is gorgeous and better IMO than the Astons. They are both luxurious but I couldnt spend that sort of money and drive a car which shares the same switches and indicator stalks as a Ford Mondeo/Scorpio.
Looks wise the styling of the Vanquish is great but when you compare it to the 550, you will see that where the Ferrari has subtle curves, the Aston has lines which are "in your face" square. Take the rear quarters of both cars as your example. The Vanquish looks too "Lego".
With regards to the Tuscan vs 360, IMO the 360 wins hands down. Not because its a Ferrari, but because of its road presence and its poise. Its styling was radical at the time and I believe it has paid of for Ferrari.
A friend once said to me "the designer of the Tuscan must have been pissed". I like the look of the Tuscan but I get what he was saying. Different parts of a car have to be designed to work together in order to achieve an overall design whereby each area of the body complements eachother. You have to ask what has TVR tried to achieve with the Tuscan? Look at the front light cluster and bonnet and think to yourself, do they work together? OK some one say TVR was trying to make a beast of car.....but then my make it so narrow? Why not make the car wider? Thinking about now, the design is rather shoe like...which is fine if you want the car to look elegant BUT I've never heard anyone say a TVR is an elegant car.
Most of the marques we are discussing have very distinctive styling cues that are consistant through most of their ranges/models. Though the models change the signatures seem to remain and endure. Most of the F cars at their time of design were cutting edge, styling wise. You cannot stand next to a modern 360/550/575/456 and say they are not stunning IMHO. 355's look to me like one of the most purposeful shapes I can imagine. I would hate to think that everyone had exactly the same sense of style. Have you ever been to club and bumped into someone wearing the same shirt? Its soul destroying.
Even the interiors seem to be properly designed now.
I know this is semi O/T but Pinin have a range of kitchens and they are awesome!!!! A local interior design firm is the UK importer.
Even the interiors seem to be properly designed now.
I know this is semi O/T but Pinin have a range of kitchens and they are awesome!!!! A local interior design firm is the UK importer.
ajaym said:
As for the 550, I must admit I'm genuinely surprised at the number of people who actually think it's fantastically styled, but I guess this is a Ferrari forum! I don't recall reading many mainstream motoring magazines that liked the 550 and I'm afraid I'm firmly with them on that, though I do disagree on a lot of other things.
I also see the point about getting cheap switchgear in a car costing a six figure sum - I too think that it is unacceptable. If TVR, Ferrari and Lambo can do it, why not Aston Martin?
There are few cars around more elegant than a TVR Cerbera. Try going on the Cerbera forum and asking...
...BUT I've never heard anyone say a TVR is an elegant car.
As for the 550, I must admit I'm genuinely surprised at the number of people who actually think it's fantastically styled, but I guess this is a Ferrari forum!
I don't recall reading many mainstream motoring magazines that liked the 550 and I'm afraid I'm firmly with them on that, though I do disagree on a lot of other things. I also see the point about getting cheap switchgear in a car costing a six figure sum - I too think that it is unacceptable. If TVR, Ferrari and Lambo can do it, why not Aston Martin?
roadsweeper said: ajaym said:There are few cars around more elegant than a TVR Cerbera. Try going on the Cerbera forum and asking...
...BUT I've never heard anyone say a TVR is an elegant car.
As for the 550, I must admit I'm genuinely surprised at the number of people who actually think it's fantastically styled, but I guess this is a Ferrari forum!
I also see the point about getting cheap switchgear in a car costing a six figure sum - I too think that it is unacceptable. If TVR, Ferrari and Lambo can do it, why not Aston Martin?
IMHO the Cerbera is not elegant, as it is too long. A few inches shorter and it might be OK. The Tuscan is a beautiful design from the side, but the victor kyam front end is a bit messy.
As for minor manufacturers using mass produced switchgear, well, I like polished and shiny bits in car interiors, but only cosmetically. If my mate's Griff had had rotary Vauxhall dials for the heater, I'm sure the sodding system would actually have worked properly.
Roadsweeper - you're wrong there mate - the days of Ferrari using Fiat switchgear in their cars is LONG GONE - Montezemolo just won't have it.... Step into a 550 and you'll know.
Lamborghini use Audi stuff but the usage itself is hardly a problem because Audi switches and bits are amongst the best in the world.
Also TVR - although fab cars - I wouldn't classify them in the supercar category - they're Sports cars first and supercars second - if they use cheaper switchgear no problem...... for a car like the TVR to do what it does (and hell - it does a LOT) at such a great price that's no problem at all.
But stick my uncles Scorpio stalks in a £160K Aston and that's a little different. When I was learning to drive I rode around in a Fiesta and the elec window switches in the Vanqish are lifted straight from the fiesta..... no thanks.
Lamborghini use Audi stuff but the usage itself is hardly a problem because Audi switches and bits are amongst the best in the world.
Also TVR - although fab cars - I wouldn't classify them in the supercar category - they're Sports cars first and supercars second - if they use cheaper switchgear no problem...... for a car like the TVR to do what it does (and hell - it does a LOT) at such a great price that's no problem at all.
But stick my uncles Scorpio stalks in a £160K Aston and that's a little different. When I was learning to drive I rode around in a Fiesta and the elec window switches in the Vanqish are lifted straight from the fiesta..... no thanks.
manu said:
Hi manu
I think you mis-read my post - I didn't say that Ferrari used Fiat switchgear, quite the opposite in fact. I was actually criticising Aston Martin for doing it!
I find your definition of supercars and sports car in relation to TVR interesting. How do you define a supercar? Is the Pagani Zonda C12 a supercar? Personally I look at the outright performance, handling and looks. Looking a TVR Cerbera 4.5 or Tuscan S they are quicker in a straight line, much the same under braking, not as good handling but look fantastic compared to current Ferraris (Enzo excluded on performance!) all in my opinion of course! For me TVRs have all the attributes of supercars - they just don't cost six figure sums. 
Roadsweeper - you're wrong there mate - the days of Ferrari using Fiat switchgear in their cars is LONG GONE - Montezemolo just won't have it.... Step into a 550 and you'll know.
Lamborghini use Audi stuff but the usage itself is hardly a problem because Audi switches and bits are amongst the best in the world.
Also TVR - although fab cars - I wouldn't classify them in the supercar category - they're Sports cars first and supercars second - if they use cheaper switchgear no problem...... for a car like the TVR to do what it does (and hell - it does a LOT) at such a great price that's no problem at all.
But stick my uncles Scorpio stalks in a £160K Aston and that's a little different. When I was learning to drive I rode around in a Fiesta and the elec window switches in the Vanqish are lifted straight from the fiesta..... no thanks.
Hi manu
I think you mis-read my post - I didn't say that Ferrari used Fiat switchgear, quite the opposite in fact. I was actually criticising Aston Martin for doing it!
I find your definition of supercars and sports car in relation to TVR interesting. How do you define a supercar? Is the Pagani Zonda C12 a supercar? Personally I look at the outright performance, handling and looks. Looking a TVR Cerbera 4.5 or Tuscan S they are quicker in a straight line, much the same under braking, not as good handling but look fantastic compared to current Ferraris (Enzo excluded on performance!
) all in my opinion of course! For me TVRs have all the attributes of supercars - they just don't cost six figure sums. th trouble with ferrari is in the early years they were making trully great 2 seater sportscars which even though they were small were real drivers cars`but then big fat swiss buisness men couldnt fit in them and ferrari started to take note and build bigger cars like the testerrossa so they could fit in? and im sorry but to me the 355 and marnello are to grand tourer for me? they may be great to drive but the edge has definately been lost as has porshe there making cars all to comfortable and user friendly tho drive? give me a dino or 308 any day real drivers cars.
550 vs Vanquish: no contest!Even though I really like the Aston it does look a little too boxy and cartoonish, and I really don't get why they didn't put some more effort on the interior.
Want road presence: Take a black 360 Modena, low and mean, only rival it could have in this department is a black Murcielago, only that the Murci is almost 500 kg heavier, so it's bye bye in the twisties!
Want road presence: Take a black 360 Modena, low and mean, only rival it could have in this department is a black Murcielago, only that the Murci is almost 500 kg heavier, so it's bye bye in the twisties!
Manu mate,
I am with you on the 550. I remember hating it when the mags showed the first shots before production. I really thought they'd got it wrong. HOWEVER, when I saw it and went in it for the first time I decided never to make a judgement from mag shots again.
For me it is a perfect car. The lines and the stance of the 550 bring a tear to my eye. The Aston Vantage 600 of old had a very similar effect but the Aston was more obvious.
As for the Vanquish.....heard then saw one out in Hong Kong. Even though the exhaust note was vicious and show stopping, the rear end would keep me up all night crying if I bought one. As I've said before, when you're driving a supercar you don't really see the exterior when moving along. Surely this should be reason enough to have an interior designed as a fore thought not as a "bloody hell just chuck some of that Ford shite in there". I can unserstand cost saving but the car cost 160k for F's sake.
Anyway, 550.......love it. A real man's car.
I am with you on the 550. I remember hating it when the mags showed the first shots before production. I really thought they'd got it wrong. HOWEVER, when I saw it and went in it for the first time I decided never to make a judgement from mag shots again.
For me it is a perfect car. The lines and the stance of the 550 bring a tear to my eye. The Aston Vantage 600 of old had a very similar effect but the Aston was more obvious.
As for the Vanquish.....heard then saw one out in Hong Kong. Even though the exhaust note was vicious and show stopping, the rear end would keep me up all night crying if I bought one. As I've said before, when you're driving a supercar you don't really see the exterior when moving along. Surely this should be reason enough to have an interior designed as a fore thought not as a "bloody hell just chuck some of that Ford shite in there". I can unserstand cost saving but the car cost 160k for F's sake.
Anyway, 550.......love it. A real man's car.
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