Opinion sought - the dream's looking to be over
Discussion
Any input gratefully received...
355 GTB bought 21/12/02 from Graypauls. 10k miles, 4yrs old. Lovely. Added an extra year of Power warranty onto the 1yr it had.
Few warranty niggles (aircon switch knackered etc) but nothing major to spoil the dream.
12th July (car now has 15k miles on it) coming home from Goodwood the engine dies, all warning lights come on, the horn goes off and the car fills with smoke. Eject passenger and self for fear of life, then call tow truck (don't ask how long that took). No full on fire, but plenty of smoke. Oh bugger.
Car returned to Graypaul the following Friday for analysis and hopeful warranty claim!
Analysis:
The engine wiring loom had burnt out. It looks like the grommet that should prevent this part of the loom becoming chafed is not in place (not sure whether this is entirely, or just not in place properly). The loom has chafed and shorted on the ignition circuit causing the burn out.
As I'm told that the loom passes over the fuel tank at this point I'm somewhat relieved that no one was hurt. Though as I now stand, I think I'd rather the thing had set alight. Read on.
Ferrari UK - not covered by warranty. It looks like this might have happened when the engine was out for its belts to be done in 2001, but it's not a warranty claim period.
FUK contact the approved dealer (the car has ONLY been in the approved network) who did the belts to see what they say. Stratstones (said dealer) aren't interested as they did the work 2 years ago.
FUK suggest I talk to Graypauls as suppliers of the car.
Graypauls understand my point, but the problem isn't theirs to deal with.
Result - I'm left with at least a 3.5k bill, though as a gesture of goodwill and because they'd like to retain my business, they are offering a "reduced" rate on the fix (so it could feasibly be less than 3.5k if I were to be optimistic).
To say I'm a little bit mad would be the understatement of the century. And so much for my comments on this forum about buying from the approved network for peace of mind!
I feel more than a million miles away from smiling every time I see a 355 right at this moment in time.
If anyone has any advice, I'll take it gladly. Am going to call my insurers but I can already here the "sorry, this ain't covered" before I even bother.
The way I am right now, can't see me keeping the car once it's fixed. I fully accepted that a Ferrari might not be reliable, but this sh*te takes the biscuit and simply makes me want to put my money elsewhere.
355 GTB bought 21/12/02 from Graypauls. 10k miles, 4yrs old. Lovely. Added an extra year of Power warranty onto the 1yr it had.
Few warranty niggles (aircon switch knackered etc) but nothing major to spoil the dream.
12th July (car now has 15k miles on it) coming home from Goodwood the engine dies, all warning lights come on, the horn goes off and the car fills with smoke. Eject passenger and self for fear of life, then call tow truck (don't ask how long that took). No full on fire, but plenty of smoke. Oh bugger.
Car returned to Graypaul the following Friday for analysis and hopeful warranty claim!
Analysis:
The engine wiring loom had burnt out. It looks like the grommet that should prevent this part of the loom becoming chafed is not in place (not sure whether this is entirely, or just not in place properly). The loom has chafed and shorted on the ignition circuit causing the burn out.
As I'm told that the loom passes over the fuel tank at this point I'm somewhat relieved that no one was hurt. Though as I now stand, I think I'd rather the thing had set alight. Read on.
Ferrari UK - not covered by warranty. It looks like this might have happened when the engine was out for its belts to be done in 2001, but it's not a warranty claim period.
FUK contact the approved dealer (the car has ONLY been in the approved network) who did the belts to see what they say. Stratstones (said dealer) aren't interested as they did the work 2 years ago.
FUK suggest I talk to Graypauls as suppliers of the car.
Graypauls understand my point, but the problem isn't theirs to deal with.
Result - I'm left with at least a 3.5k bill, though as a gesture of goodwill and because they'd like to retain my business, they are offering a "reduced" rate on the fix (so it could feasibly be less than 3.5k if I were to be optimistic).
To say I'm a little bit mad would be the understatement of the century. And so much for my comments on this forum about buying from the approved network for peace of mind!
I feel more than a million miles away from smiling every time I see a 355 right at this moment in time.
If anyone has any advice, I'll take it gladly. Am going to call my insurers but I can already here the "sorry, this ain't covered" before I even bother.
The way I am right now, can't see me keeping the car once it's fixed. I fully accepted that a Ferrari might not be reliable, but this sh*te takes the biscuit and simply makes me want to put my money elsewhere.
well I think this calls for a direct approach to the MD of Ferrari UK.
There is no evidence to suggest that this gromet incident did take place when it was serviced.
Seems to me the issues are this;
Did Graypual as servicing agent of behalf of ferrari miss replacing the gromet?? ( if that was really the item at fault)
They cannot prove that and the warranty is still in place.
You should persue Ferrari UK and at least ask for further cost assistance to meet the offer of Graypaul
There is no evidence to suggest that this gromet incident did take place when it was serviced.
Seems to me the issues are this;
Did Graypual as servicing agent of behalf of ferrari miss replacing the gromet?? ( if that was really the item at fault)
They cannot prove that and the warranty is still in place.
You should persue Ferrari UK and at least ask for further cost assistance to meet the offer of Graypaul
Sorry to hear this Murph. I'd be pretty peed off. I think Dazren is right though. You must go through the detail of what Ferrari claim a Formula Approved car constitutes. ie What checks do they claim to make?
From what I can see it's irrelevent who serviced the car when this prob may or may not have been caused. You'll never be able to prove this and whats more neither will Graypaul. To say it's nothing to do with them is mischievous and bordering on dishonest.
The question of when it happened is open ended, unprovable and a misleading red herring,.
If they say it probably happened at the last belt change then they are admitting that they supplied you a car with a fault. They should now sort out the consequences.
Unless you get some better answers immediately, the solicitor needs to drop them a line. It's always better to tell them what you feel and try and resolve amicably if you can, but judging from what you have been told so far I think they are taking the Michael. Maybe a reminder that they have a reputation to keep will get them back on track!
From what I can see it's irrelevent who serviced the car when this prob may or may not have been caused. You'll never be able to prove this and whats more neither will Graypaul. To say it's nothing to do with them is mischievous and bordering on dishonest.
The question of when it happened is open ended, unprovable and a misleading red herring,.
If they say it probably happened at the last belt change then they are admitting that they supplied you a car with a fault. They should now sort out the consequences.
Unless you get some better answers immediately, the solicitor needs to drop them a line. It's always better to tell them what you feel and try and resolve amicably if you can, but judging from what you have been told so far I think they are taking the Michael. Maybe a reminder that they have a reputation to keep will get them back on track!
Firstly, the main thing is that you got out safely. This must have been terrifying, and I'm relieved we're just talking about a warranty claim.
The dealers are taking the piss. Personally, I wouldn't be offering jack shit towards the repairs - I see this as a clear failure of the dealer network to prepare and maintain the car in a manner consistent with its safe operation. It's not a matter of which one failed, but why they both did.
If it is a warranty claim, take this to Ferrari UK- all warranty claims go there anyway, and start off with a very straightforward letter to the MD as 355f suggested (this has worked for me in the past). Depending on the outcome, I would follow this by getting my lawyer in on the act. Oh, and the papers. The case would be built round negligence, emotional trauma, dereliction of duty etc. I'm seeing 5-6 figures. Before the decimal point. One thing that would help is gathering evidence of this happening before on the same model.
If there's one thing that's going to get us to defect en masse to Verdi, it's shoddy treatment like this. I mean it; if they've missed it on your car, what have they missed on mine? There is liability here; it's a hot potato and no-one wants to hold it. I'm deeply pissed off with how you've been treated.
You're being *much* more reasonable than I ever would be. My lawyers would already have been briefed.
The dealers are taking the piss. Personally, I wouldn't be offering jack shit towards the repairs - I see this as a clear failure of the dealer network to prepare and maintain the car in a manner consistent with its safe operation. It's not a matter of which one failed, but why they both did.
If it is a warranty claim, take this to Ferrari UK- all warranty claims go there anyway, and start off with a very straightforward letter to the MD as 355f suggested (this has worked for me in the past). Depending on the outcome, I would follow this by getting my lawyer in on the act. Oh, and the papers. The case would be built round negligence, emotional trauma, dereliction of duty etc. I'm seeing 5-6 figures. Before the decimal point. One thing that would help is gathering evidence of this happening before on the same model.
If there's one thing that's going to get us to defect en masse to Verdi, it's shoddy treatment like this. I mean it; if they've missed it on your car, what have they missed on mine? There is liability here; it's a hot potato and no-one wants to hold it. I'm deeply pissed off with how you've been treated.
You're being *much* more reasonable than I ever would be. My lawyers would already have been briefed.
agree with 456 for sure.
The other issue is that the dealers get a fee for a 'full inspection' of the car which takes about 3/4 hours in order that they can report to Ferrari UK it is suitable for underwritting and further more the policyholder is 'entrapped' into the main dealer network because you cant get it serviced anywhere else. That fine if you get the best service in this case............
>> Edited by 355f on Wednesday 13th August 20:04
The other issue is that the dealers get a fee for a 'full inspection' of the car which takes about 3/4 hours in order that they can report to Ferrari UK it is suitable for underwritting and further more the policyholder is 'entrapped' into the main dealer network because you cant get it serviced anywhere else. That fine if you get the best service in this case............
>> Edited by 355f on Wednesday 13th August 20:04
Andy,
Like Kevin I'm glad to hear that everybody got out safely.
The thing that really annoys me with the dealers is that when something like this occurs the first response is always to find every reason under the sun why its not their issue or responsibility.
In my experience with other brands, after seeking legal advice, the best course of action in these circumstances is to try and reach a compromise with the dealer to rectify the issue. In this case I would suggest you pay parts and they cover labour. The problem is that the motor industry as a whole is too heavily protected and it is VERY difficult to get anywhere if things end up in court. Apparently in most cases a court will just end up suggesting some form of compromise, so it costs you money/time etc. The only exception to this seems to be a problem occuring within the first 6 weeks of ownership, which as we all know rarely happens. The law needs to change IMO and then perhaps dealers & manufacturers will be forced to improve service and standards.
I have defected to Verdi's already and on my initial experiences they are exceptionally good. Their premises may not be fancy, but the mechanics know what they are doing, which at the end of the day is the most important thing.
Like Kevin I'm glad to hear that everybody got out safely.
The thing that really annoys me with the dealers is that when something like this occurs the first response is always to find every reason under the sun why its not their issue or responsibility.
In my experience with other brands, after seeking legal advice, the best course of action in these circumstances is to try and reach a compromise with the dealer to rectify the issue. In this case I would suggest you pay parts and they cover labour. The problem is that the motor industry as a whole is too heavily protected and it is VERY difficult to get anywhere if things end up in court. Apparently in most cases a court will just end up suggesting some form of compromise, so it costs you money/time etc. The only exception to this seems to be a problem occuring within the first 6 weeks of ownership, which as we all know rarely happens. The law needs to change IMO and then perhaps dealers & manufacturers will be forced to improve service and standards.
I have defected to Verdi's already and on my initial experiences they are exceptionally good. Their premises may not be fancy, but the mechanics know what they are doing, which at the end of the day is the most important thing.
While I usually agree with Frostie, on this occasion I don't.
1) The law on car warranties has changed recently, in favour of the consumer
2) The fault was not your usual 'something doesn't work', it compromised the safety of the passengers
3) I had a similar thing happen in a V6 Mondeo, where a pipe had come adrift and chafed through. This was repaired under warranty without question.
In a legal sense these are different cases. I very much doubt this would get a far as court, but I'm of the view that if they get off with simply ponying up for the repairs they will have got off lightly.
1) The law on car warranties has changed recently, in favour of the consumer
2) The fault was not your usual 'something doesn't work', it compromised the safety of the passengers
3) I had a similar thing happen in a V6 Mondeo, where a pipe had come adrift and chafed through. This was repaired under warranty without question.
In a legal sense these are different cases. I very much doubt this would get a far as court, but I'm of the view that if they get off with simply ponying up for the repairs they will have got off lightly.
Sorry to hear about your misfortunes.
I agree with 456 - the car was warranteed - and not not mainained correctly. This is a dealer/network issue - and one for your lawyer.
You should not have to negotiate a deal - through no fault of your own your car stopped working - and luckily (by the sounds of it) there was no injury.
Seek legal advise - whilst remaining calm and collected in you discussions with dealers.
Anjum
I agree with 456 - the car was warranteed - and not not mainained correctly. This is a dealer/network issue - and one for your lawyer.
You should not have to negotiate a deal - through no fault of your own your car stopped working - and luckily (by the sounds of it) there was no injury.
Seek legal advise - whilst remaining calm and collected in you discussions with dealers.
Anjum
Hey Guys - Hope you are all well..... been v busy.
Andy - one of my guys had a suspension upright fail on his F355 while driving at Bruntingthorpe. Quite literally 3 minutes earlier he had been driving at 160mph trying to v-max his car....
The head honchos (i.e not his dealer) replaced his upright for free after sh!tting themselves about it becuase my man threatened to plaster the news (with picture) EVERYWHERE.
The fact that your problem isn't covered under warranty is a nonsense but largely irrelevant.
Such failures (including yours) are SAFETY-CRITICAL. My stance would be that someone sold me a DEATHTRAP... and on that basis I would be prepared F**K any company associated with the sale of the vehicle.
Take them to task - don't spend a penny and be prepared to get the lawyers involved and make the threats you need to make (if they don't play ball immediately)....
Corporate Hubris at it's worst I'm afraid.
>> Edited by manu on Thursday 14th August 11:40
Andy - one of my guys had a suspension upright fail on his F355 while driving at Bruntingthorpe. Quite literally 3 minutes earlier he had been driving at 160mph trying to v-max his car....
The head honchos (i.e not his dealer) replaced his upright for free after sh!tting themselves about it becuase my man threatened to plaster the news (with picture) EVERYWHERE.
The fact that your problem isn't covered under warranty is a nonsense but largely irrelevant.
Such failures (including yours) are SAFETY-CRITICAL. My stance would be that someone sold me a DEATHTRAP... and on that basis I would be prepared F**K any company associated with the sale of the vehicle.
Take them to task - don't spend a penny and be prepared to get the lawyers involved and make the threats you need to make (if they don't play ball immediately)....
Corporate Hubris at it's worst I'm afraid.
>> Edited by manu on Thursday 14th August 11:40
Does this not back up what has been said (by some people)
www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=7169
www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=7169
Received a lot of support on and off forum, for which I'm really gratfeul.
Work got in the way a bit, but letters have been posted today.
Am out of the country now so will be following up more closely when I get back on 8th Sept. at which point the car will have been off the road for 2mths.
Will post a full update with details and any responses then.
Once again, I really appreciate the support from all on here. It's just a bloody shame that the motor industry (as I fully understand it's not just Ferrari) can't be a little (lot!) more accepting of responsibility for its products!
Work got in the way a bit, but letters have been posted today.
Am out of the country now so will be following up more closely when I get back on 8th Sept. at which point the car will have been off the road for 2mths.
Will post a full update with details and any responses then.
Once again, I really appreciate the support from all on here. It's just a bloody shame that the motor industry (as I fully understand it's not just Ferrari) can't be a little (lot!) more accepting of responsibility for its products!
Manu
I heard that the owner of that car was advised of the corrosion and chose not to have it dealt with, may be wrong though
Andy
A couple of other things, I can probably lay my hands on a used engine loom much cheaper than a new one also did you get a Formula Warranty with the car that you extended with the power?, if so take it to a Solicitor, I beleive the wording is very clear about Graypaul's responsibility for making sure the car is up to scratch with all updates done etc etc
I heard that the owner of that car was advised of the corrosion and chose not to have it dealt with, may be wrong though
Andy
A couple of other things, I can probably lay my hands on a used engine loom much cheaper than a new one also did you get a Formula Warranty with the car that you extended with the power?, if so take it to a Solicitor, I beleive the wording is very clear about Graypaul's responsibility for making sure the car is up to scratch with all updates done etc etc
domster said:
In my experience, engine loom fires can normally be claimed under insurance. Good back up - although your NCB could go up in smoke.... so not first choice of action.
Yep, I work with someone who's pug 306 went up in flames after using the horn (that'll teach him). Claimed on insurance, but like u say, not first course of action and not nice on the NCB either.
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