Is a Zonda really worth it?

[NRS]

darksider said:

So this just came up:

http://www.cohencunild.com/listing/pagani-cinque-r...

Never heard of these guys before but I was already headed to Marbella to visit SuperGarage anyways so why not kill 2 birds with 1 stone?

Its strange; just a few weeks ago I thought my options were limited but Zonda's keep popping up!

Since it mentions that it's Spanish registered it should be 1/5 (#108). However there are quite a few fake sites that pop up offering cars for sale. But if you're there anyway then it's not a problem.

Often there is a lot of Zondas available on the market, but it depends how you define "for sale". A lot are just put on the market at a high price to drive demand up slowly over time, without a full intention to sell unless for a silly price. Just note the price creep with a lot of cars that have been around for a while. Since it doesn't cost the owners anything/ very little if it is Sale or Return then it's not a bad idea anyway. It's not like the owner will use it every day, and the garage selling also gets a nice "halo" model to attract people in with. You just need to look at TurboTerrific's car when he bought it to see how relatively quickly a car will sell if the owner really is wanting to sell it on and prices it as such.

EDT: In theory TT9's old car may be for sale unofficially. The factory bought it, so depending on their plans for it then you may be able to buy it from them. I would suspect they bought it to support the value of other cars, since they've been good at that previously.

Edited by NRS on Tuesday 25th August 19:04

[Beefmeister]

Also it serves as a good basis should some wealthy person want a 'fresh' 760 from the factory.

[marky1]

Cohen and Cunild have been open in banus now for probably three years or more. Speak to Mitchell. They appear to me to be legit having looked at a car with them in the past. I don't know anything about this car though.

[Streetrod]

TurboTerrific9 said:

TurboTerrific9 said:

NRS said:

darksider said:

So this just came up:

http://www.cohencunild.com/listing/pagani-cinque-r...

Never heard of these guys before but I was already headed to Marbella to visit SuperGarage anyways so why not kill 2 birds with 1 stone?

Its strange; just a few weeks ago I thought my options were limited but Zonda's keep popping up!

Since it mentions that it's Spanish registered it should be 1/5 (#108). However there are quite a few fake sites that pop up offering cars for sale. But if you're there anyway then it's not a problem.

Often there is a lot of Zondas available on the market, but it depends how you define "for sale". A lot are just put on the market at a high price to drive demand up slowly over time, without a full intention to sell unless for a silly price. Just note the price creep with a lot of cars that have been around for a while. Since it doesn't cost the owners anything/ very little if it is Sale or Return then it's not a bad idea anyway. It's not like the owner will use it every day, and the garage selling also gets a nice "halo" model to attract people in with. You just need to look at TurboTerrific's car when he bought it to see how relatively quickly a car will sell if the owner really is wanting to sell it on and prices it as such.

EDT: In theory TT9's old car may be for sale unofficially. The factory bought it, so depending on their plans for it then you may be able to buy it from them. I would suspect they bought it to support the value of other cars, since they've been good at that previously.

Edited by NRS on Tuesday 25th August 19:04

You seem to have pretty good info ....

I bought my car in late Summer 2012 and sold it at a similar time two years later.
It was a fabulously specced car in a wonderful colour scheme.

The point I would add is that given how rampant the market for HyperCars has been, it was not as easy to move on as one might expect, both when I sold it or when the previous owner sold it to me.
Whilst I fully expect values to continue to push higher, I'd personally be very nervous about the current inflated asking prices. In my experience the cars that are priced to be moved relatively quickly are at a very different price point.

It's a great car - I really enjoyed the ownership experience - Horacio is a top guy, he has strong values and is building a super brand.

TT9 using your intimate knowledge and based on your statement above would you be willing to state what would be a reasonable price for a Zonda F at this time?

[DeltaOne]

I love Zonda's, and eveytime I read more about Horacio or the car itself I fancy one. Then I do a little research, work out I'm still none the wiser as to what the market is, and am uneasy as to why the cars seem to hang around longer than you'd want them to when they do hit the market. What's stopped me has always been that if you ever wanted to sell (and in my case that would happen simply because I like swapping every so often), there would likely be only one or two trade buyers, or else it could sit on SOR for ages (I loathe SOR) - and the market is so opaque the price could vary by a 6 figure sum because there are no comparables. That makes the risk much higher than (say) buying other cars at this level, which means it won't be for all, no matter how fantastic the car and the backstory.

[Beefmeister]

Anyone know how much this one is going for?

Love the colour, almost silver in some pics, plus already registered in the UK is a bonus. I love an unmolested F.

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...

Edited by Beefmeister on Wednesday 26th August 10:33

[Streetrod]

DeltaOne said:

I love Zonda's, and eveytime I read more about Horacio or the car itself I fancy one. Then I do a little research, work out I'm still none the wiser as to what the market is, and am uneasy as to why the cars seem to hang around longer than you'd want them to when they do hit the market. What's stopped me has always been that if you ever wanted to sell (and in my case that would happen simply because I like swapping every so often), there would likely be only one or two trade buyers, or else it could sit on SOR for ages (I loathe SOR) - and the market is so opaque the price could vary by a 6 figure sum because there are no comparables. That makes the risk much higher than (say) buying other cars at this level, which means it won't be for all, no matter how fantastic the car and the backstory.

As some on here will know I am a major Pagani geek and fan but I think I have to agree with everything both TT9 and yourself have said.

My view is that the Pagani market is less driven by the usual market forces and more dealers trying to artificially control and hike it which I think is a major mistake and could go against the brand in the future.

We have seen this situation played out in the Koeniggsegg market with recent auction sales at less than reserve price. Some dealers in Europe have realised that they can’t artificially boost prices so are now letting the market dictate Egg prices.

Let’s not forget that the McLaren F1 in recent history traded below retail price and look where we are today with those. The Pagani’s should be allowed to find their own level which I feel is way below some current asking prices. Once these cars start to sell and more people get to experience how good they are then demand and price will naturally increase as is the natural order of things.

You have to remember that the support network for Pagani’s is very small, potential buyers want to feel assured that the price they buy in at is reasonable enough to allow for the very expensive running costs considering most major services will require the car to be returned to the factory

[ironictwist]

darksider said:

ironictwist said:

darksider - YHM

...Can put you in touch direct with them.

YHM? Well it doesn't hurt to try as long as they have one that's actually available.

YHM = You have mail (Don't worry, I never understood it first either when someone used it on me here!))

But you do genuinely have mail now! & it's a peach

[McAndy]

ironictwist said:

But you do genuinely have mail now! & it's a peach

Well that's spoiled the surprise; a Zonda probably would have been more useful.

[camshafted]

Slightly off topic, but with the Zonda now seemingly selling for well above original list price, does anyone think the Huyara will go the same way?

Tom Hartley Jnr has sold one this year, and now has another one which he wants £1.1 million for. It's a right-hand drive 13-plate with 1,800 miles on the clock - http://www.tomhartleyjnr.com/used/2013/pagani/huay...

Personally wasn't sold on the Huayra first off, but now I like it. I had a similar feeling with the Zonda.

[Davey S2]

Streetrod said:

most major services will require the car to be returned to the factory

That would be a major plus point for me. "Bye love, the car needs a service so I'm driving down to Italy for a week".

[McAndy]

Davey S2 said:

That would be a major plus point for me. "Bye love, the car needs a service so I'm driving down to Italy for a week".

Earn brownie points by suggesting a romantic drive down to and through Italy and back, neglecting to tell her the size of the bill, but having the brownie points in case they're required when she finds out!

[darksider]

Streetrod said:

As some on here will know I am a major Pagani geek and fan but I think I have to agree with everything both TT9 and yourself have said.

My view is that the Pagani market is less driven by the usual market forces and more dealers trying to artificially control and hike it which I think is a major mistake and could go against the brand in the future.

We have seen this situation played out in the Koeniggsegg market with recent auction sales at less than reserve price. Some dealers in Europe have realised that they can’t artificially boost prices so are now letting the market dictate Egg prices.

Let’s not forget that the McLaren F1 in recent history traded below retail price and look where we are today with those. The Pagani’s should be allowed to find their own level which I feel is way below some current asking prices. Once these cars start to sell and more people get to experience how good they are then demand and price will naturally increase as is the natural order of things.

You have to remember that the support network for Pagani’s is very small, potential buyers want to feel assured that the price they buy in at is reasonable enough to allow for the very expensive running costs considering most major services will require the car to be returned to the factory

Really great points. I work in real estate and one of the biggest fears for me and my broker is having a property on the market for too long. The time a property spends on the market is a matter of public record so if it goes unsold for an extended period of time, buyers get cautious and ask themselves "something must be wrong with this property". In some cases, they use it to justify a lowball price.

As valuable as a Zonda may be, I get the feeling a lot of supercar owners overlook them in favor of slightly more accessible cars like a 918. Its clear the demand is not high when a car sits in a showroom for 2-3+ years. By pricing out good potential buyers like me, they signal to other collectors/enthusiasts that the car is not a viable investment. My final thoughts: The Zonda was meant to be on the road, not a showroom.

[NRS]

Streetrod said:

DeltaOne said:

I love Zonda's, and eveytime I read more about Horacio or the car itself I fancy one. Then I do a little research, work out I'm still none the wiser as to what the market is, and am uneasy as to why the cars seem to hang around longer than you'd want them to when they do hit the market. What's stopped me has always been that if you ever wanted to sell (and in my case that would happen simply because I like swapping every so often), there would likely be only one or two trade buyers, or else it could sit on SOR for ages (I loathe SOR) - and the market is so opaque the price could vary by a 6 figure sum because there are no comparables. That makes the risk much higher than (say) buying other cars at this level, which means it won't be for all, no matter how fantastic the car and the backstory.

As some on here will know I am a major Pagani geek and fan but I think I have to agree with everything both TT9 and yourself have said.

My view is that the Pagani market is less driven by the usual market forces and more dealers trying to artificially control and hike it which I think is a major mistake and could go against the brand in the future.

We have seen this situation played out in the Koeniggsegg market with recent auction sales at less than reserve price. Some dealers in Europe have realised that they can’t artificially boost prices so are now letting the market dictate Egg prices.

Let’s not forget that the McLaren F1 in recent history traded below retail price and look where we are today with those. The Pagani’s should be allowed to find their own level which I feel is way below some current asking prices. Once these cars start to sell and more people get to experience how good they are then demand and price will naturally increase as is the natural order of things.

You have to remember that the support network for Pagani’s is very small, potential buyers want to feel assured that the price they buy in at is reasonable enough to allow for the very expensive running costs considering most major services will require the car to be returned to the factory

I somewhat agree and disagree with what you've said. At the moment there are obviously quite a few cars on the market but they are clearly not "really" for sale since the asking prices creep up with the general market conditions, rather than staying static until they sell as the market moves upwards. Therefore you can in a sense "remove" these cars from the for sale list in practice. However the issue these cars create is that it is difficult to work out the real price for the cars that are actually for sale now, and which the owners are actively trying to move on. So you could end up paying too much and then having issues at sales time making the money back.

Streetrod, in some ways you could read the evidence the other way too - it is not just the dealers looking for inflated prices, but Pagani has shown a number of times that it is willing to buy back cars to make sure the price doesn't drop too low if there would be a glut of cars in the market. Therefore you could argue that it is perhaps safer than some other brands, who once the car is sold don't do as much to protect the value of their cars (and rather push the next model to come out). I believe Koenigsegg didn't do this and so it could be part of the reason to explain the relatively lower prices.

However you also need to look at the market and who is interested in the cars. At first Pagani was a slightly more expensive bespoke "Ferrari" in terms of pricing. This moved northwards pretty rapidly with the Veyron making it ok to charge nearer 7 figures for a car. This pulled up the price of the original cars and so between the bespoke nature, increasing value and how good they were to drive (as well as Pagani's story) they did very well in continuing up the ladder in value for a while.

However now that a new model is out, and there is much more hypercar competition from McLaren, Porsche and obviously Ferrari in the market. With the 7 figure values you also price out a lot of (relatively) rich enthusiasts who would have bought at lower prices. The "buy the latest thing" people have moved on, and so you are left with investors and people who think they are a classic and worth getting over the competition (or can just buy everything). Generally people who want them will have already got one, and so there is very few people in the market who will be shopping for one still. In regards to investors; with an unclear value and what seems to be relatively static prices from my limited knowledge of what sells/ what doesn't sell then it's not that interesting. However owners are generally into the very rich category rather than just rich very few will need to sell quickly, and since it is such a classic car I don't see prices going down much (unless there is a big crash which forces a lot of people to need to free up capital quickly, and then we're all in trouble anyway)! So I can see prices being pretty stable for a while now, until the generation who had them on their walls starts getting more money. But that will be interesting to see, since they have such high values already so will the normal trends for cars continue with these hypercars?

EDT: Obviously when the car becomes available for the US etc there will be a jump in values too.

Edited by NRS on Wednesday 26th August 19:18

[NRS]

camshafted said:

Slightly off topic, but with the Zonda now seemingly selling for well above original list price, does anyone think the Huyara will go the same way?

Tom Hartley Jnr has sold one this year, and now has another one which he wants £1.1 million for. It's a right-hand drive 13-plate with 1,800 miles on the clock - http://www.tomhartleyjnr.com/used/2013/pagani/huay...

Personally wasn't sold on the Huayra first off, but now I like it. I had a similar feeling with the Zonda.

Can't see Huayras doing the same as Zondas, not for a long time. Remember the first Zondas were priced around £350 000... So much lower starting point, and much closer to normal supercars. When starting near a million it removes a lot of customers, and there is so much more competition from major manufacturers now compared to when the Zonda was in it's main selling period. And as a final problem the Zonda was the first and special version - Huayras are amazing but will always be a follow on, and likely greater numbers produced in the end.

darksider said:

Really great points. I work in real estate and one of the biggest fears for me and my broker is having a property on the market for too long. The time a property spends on the market is a matter of public record so if it goes unsold for an extended period of time, buyers get cautious and ask themselves "something must be wrong with this property". In some cases, they use it to justify a lowball price.

As valuable as a Zonda may be, I get the feeling a lot of supercar owners overlook them in favor of slightly more accessible cars like a 918. Its clear the demand is not high when a car sits in a showroom for 2-3+ years. By pricing out good potential buyers like me, they signal to other collectors/enthusiasts that the car is not a viable investment. My final thoughts: The Zonda was meant to be on the road, not a showroom.

The only way round this is to buy one when it really is priced to sell (as TT9 says). However these are much rarer than number of cars available. I am not particularly up to date with the market, but a gut feeling says probably five cars or less are really for sale per year. Also if pushed I would take a rough guess as realistic prices for an F being £700-850k, S cars below that, perhaps £450-650k. However it's a guess since few cars really available (some ads are fake), obviously the price is not published on sale, and changing currency rates through time. TT9 would have a better idea but obviously may not want to share this. Also these silly prices are not new - it's been that way since at least 2010.

TurboTerrific9 said:

You seem to have pretty good info ....

I bought my car in late Summer 2012 and sold it at a similar time two years later.
It was a fabulously specced car in a wonderful colour scheme.

It's a great car - I really enjoyed the ownership experience - Horacio is a top guy, he has strong values and is building a super brand.

I saw it with it's previous owner and have to agree about the colour combination. Think I've seen 20 cars so far (still need to see most UK ones!) and it's probably my favourite. Another favourite is the #114 (yellow Cinque Roadster), although that's just from pictures as almost no one has seen it!

[darksider]

NRS said:

darksider said:

Really great points. I work in real estate and one of the biggest fears for me and my broker is having a property on the market for too long. The time a property spends on the market is a matter of public record so if it goes unsold for an extended period of time, buyers get cautious and ask themselves "something must be wrong with this property". In some cases, they use it to justify a lowball price.

As valuable as a Zonda may be, I get the feeling a lot of supercar owners overlook them in favor of slightly more accessible cars like a 918. Its clear the demand is not high when a car sits in a showroom for 2-3+ years. By pricing out good potential buyers like me, they signal to other collectors/enthusiasts that the car is not a viable investment. My final thoughts: The Zonda was meant to be on the road, not a showroom.

The only way round this is to buy one when it really is priced to sell (as TT9 says). However these are much rarer than number of cars available. I am not particularly up to date with the market, but a gut feeling says probably five cars or less are really for sale per year. Also if pushed I would take a rough guess as realistic prices for an F being £700-850k, S cars below that, perhaps £450-650k. However it's a guess since few cars really available (some ads are fake), obviously the price is not published on sale, and changing currency rates through time. TT9 would have a better idea but obviously may not want to share this. Also these silly prices are not new - it's been that way since at least 2010.

By my count, there are 8 Zonda's for sale right now which is actually quite substantial given how so few were built.

I think DeltaOne made a good point above in regards to SOR - I think SOR is completely foolish because not only are you adding increased supply (which should in theory reduce the price), you are distorting the market. Not to mention the fact that if an SOR Zonda goes unsold for years, that has the potential to drive down the overall value!

I really wish these SOR owners would just keep their Zonda's off the market completely because in my experience, negotiating with a dealership tasked with selling an SOR cannot be convinced to sell for a more realistic price. And therein lies the irony - if they want a higher price, take it off the market and reduce the supply! I would be much more motivated to pay more if there was say, only 1 or 2 Zonda's but instead, I get to choose from 8.

Edited by darksider on Thursday 27th August 22:04

Edited by darksider on Thursday 27th August 22:05

[NRS]

darksider said:

NRS said:

The only way round this is to buy one when it really is priced to sell (as TT9 says). However these are much rarer than number of cars available. I am not particularly up to date with the market, but a gut feeling says probably five cars or less are really for sale per year. Also if pushed I would take a rough guess as realistic prices for an F being £700-850k, S cars below that, perhaps £450-650k. However it's a guess since few cars really available (some ads are fake), obviously the price is not published on sale, and changing currency rates through time. TT9 would have a better idea but obviously may not want to share this. Also these silly prices are not new - it's been that way since at least 2010.

By my count, there are 8 Zonda's for sale right now which is actually quite substantial given how so few were built.

I think DeltaOne made a good point above in regards to SOR - I think SOR is completely foolish because not only are you adding increased supply (which should in theory reduce the price), you are distorting the market. Not to mention the fact that if an SOR Zonda goes unsold for years, that has the potential to drive down the overall value!

I really wish these SOR owners would just keep their Zonda's off the market completely because in my experience, negotiating with a dealership tasked with selling an SOR cannot be convinced to sell for a more realistic price. And therein lies the irony - if they want a higher price, take it off the market and reduce the supply! I would be much more motivated to pay more if there was say, only 1 or 2 Zonda's but instead, I get to choose from 8.

When I said five cars or less really for sale I mean the owner actually looking for someone to buy it, not the SOR cars at very high prices. If you include those you're probably nearer 10% of all Zondas made on the market over a year (although as you said some will have been there for years anyway).

I can see both sides of the story for SOR cars. It just depends who you are as to what you prefer. There is obviously enough people out there who like the option.

[jshell]

People with assets like these 'may' be getting nervous about the ever-increasing jitteriness in the global markets and economy.

And, the original Zonda, whilst a fabulous machine is not going to age well in the long run.

[DeltaOne]

NRS said:

When I said five cars or less really for sale I mean the owner actually looking for someone to buy it, not the SOR cars at very high prices. If you include those you're probably nearer 10% of all Zondas made on the market over a year (although as you said some will have been there for years anyway).

I can see both sides of the story for SOR cars. It just depends who you are as to what you prefer. There is obviously enough people out there who like the option.

There are also relatively few dealers out there with the money or balls to buy cars, most prefer to take big £££ cars on SOR instead as its s no-cost option for them. They get to show some great stock, it doesn't cost them a penny, and if it fails to sell them they've lost nothing. Similarly some dealers seem to use POA an increasing amount for their cars (esp classics) such that they can increase the price whenever they feel like it or depending on the inquiry received. I'm sure there's a good argument for POA on adverts, but to my mind it simply takes away transparency - if a dealer has bought a car then he knows what its cost him and what he'd be happy taking, and if a car is on SOR then the dealer will have a signed agreement with the would-be seller agreeing a purchase price in the event of a deal. In both cases there's therefore no obvious reason a price can't be on every car....unless someone fancies profiteering when the opportunity arises.

[_Superleggera_]

Beefmeister said:

Anyone know how much this one is going for?

Love the colour, almost silver in some pics, plus already registered in the UK is a bonus. I love an unmolested F.

http://www.pistonheads.com/classifieds/used-cars/p...

Edited by Beefmeister on Wednesday 26th August 10:33

1.85M Euro.