ZRP Forged Conrods
Discussion
Ive said:
Your sump kit sounds VERY suspicious. Is this a tried and tested sump set-up? If you were the Guinea pig for this sump, then go figure.
This is my suspicious sump. I think they have sold a few of them.https://store.vacmotorsports.com/vac---s14-megasum...
There have been no pictures because I don't yet have any. The builder is some distance away and my having pictures won't change an awful lot about the situation.
Obviously anyone using ZRP rods here is going to be a little defensive but, as I have said several times now, I am not seeking to lay blame solely with the rods. In fact, I'm pretty sure I said there were accumulative factors that ended with the spun shell. That said, given that I have spoken to both the builder, the chap who mapped the ECU and my mechanic, all of whom expressed concerns over the quality of the ZRP rods, I feel perfectly justified in posting my opinion.
Oh and in the quest for my giving the ''whole story'', my engine didn't fail on track. I was on the A30 heading up to Silverstone and had been sat at between 4 and 4.5K RPM for a little over an hour and from memory I don't recall any high G corners. Neither oil pressure or coolant temp' looked untoward and were certainly within normal parameters. The oil and filter had been changed the day before using Shell Helix 4-40 Ultra. The builder has also built many s14/2.5 and s14/2.5 for competition and had we spoken in person, prior to his fitting the ZRP rods, I would have taken his advice. As it was, a third party told him I wanted to use the ZRP rods as my budget was exhausted and so he didn't think there was an alternative. These were unfortunate circumstances and one's I accept as being my own fault.
OP you do keep saying you're not laying blame at ZRP's door, but you already have, and again just a couple of posts ago hint at the same.
"A quick update.
Although all was well for a while, a couple of cooling issues contributed to an eventual failure. 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing but I wouldn't use ZRP rods again."
Your engine builder or others views regarding the use of ZRP will be likely due to the suspicion they are of Chinese origin, and when people are used to using better known brand names for engine building they will likely be cautious. However, ZRP are building a reasonable reputation, I see you say above that people using them will be defensive, well that includes the likelihood of me using them, but I haven't yet, and have researched them for a significant period and as yet am completely unable to see anything online other than this very thread, that suggests any failures or issues whatsoever.
Some comparisons exist with 'other' cheap rods as these are referred to too, but no problems albeit several links to their use in high power (although not necessarily high rpm) builds. ZRP Facebook page has a couple of video links to competitive cars with them installed, but that's it.
The guys above have said again clearly, that the rod itself is not the component in your engine which has failed. Also you have suffered a coolant leak you said, this will raise oil temp. You have said there was higher oil temp compared to your previous build, (unsure why were you having it rebuilt) so was the coolant leak a factor or something else? It won't and can't have been the rod, even as you say from the mappers comments that there were areas of the big end bearing that were worn, as these would have been checked for before final assembly by an exacting engine builder, and the bearing fits inside the rod, where it doesn't move against the rod, it's crushed if you like, into place, (and the gudgeon pin bush is pressed into place), how can it be the rod?
I'm open minded regarding reasons for further caution before I use my ZRP rods, but from the thread content here, other than the lack of popularity due to unfamiliarity really, I can't see a reason not to.
I also have a ZRP crank, delivered last Thursday, basically going ahead, as again I cannot find any negative feedback despite the Chinese origin. I do note that ZRP in the last week have changed the style of a rod listed for my car, which is now an I beam rod. I haven't yet enquired about this change.
I am familiar with other Chinese parts, and Taiwanese, including the rebranding of some parts for better known suppliers, so less reluctant to use them.
"A quick update.
Although all was well for a while, a couple of cooling issues contributed to an eventual failure. 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing but I wouldn't use ZRP rods again."
Your engine builder or others views regarding the use of ZRP will be likely due to the suspicion they are of Chinese origin, and when people are used to using better known brand names for engine building they will likely be cautious. However, ZRP are building a reasonable reputation, I see you say above that people using them will be defensive, well that includes the likelihood of me using them, but I haven't yet, and have researched them for a significant period and as yet am completely unable to see anything online other than this very thread, that suggests any failures or issues whatsoever.
Some comparisons exist with 'other' cheap rods as these are referred to too, but no problems albeit several links to their use in high power (although not necessarily high rpm) builds. ZRP Facebook page has a couple of video links to competitive cars with them installed, but that's it.
The guys above have said again clearly, that the rod itself is not the component in your engine which has failed. Also you have suffered a coolant leak you said, this will raise oil temp. You have said there was higher oil temp compared to your previous build, (unsure why were you having it rebuilt) so was the coolant leak a factor or something else? It won't and can't have been the rod, even as you say from the mappers comments that there were areas of the big end bearing that were worn, as these would have been checked for before final assembly by an exacting engine builder, and the bearing fits inside the rod, where it doesn't move against the rod, it's crushed if you like, into place, (and the gudgeon pin bush is pressed into place), how can it be the rod?
I'm open minded regarding reasons for further caution before I use my ZRP rods, but from the thread content here, other than the lack of popularity due to unfamiliarity really, I can't see a reason not to.
I also have a ZRP crank, delivered last Thursday, basically going ahead, as again I cannot find any negative feedback despite the Chinese origin. I do note that ZRP in the last week have changed the style of a rod listed for my car, which is now an I beam rod. I haven't yet enquired about this change.
I am familiar with other Chinese parts, and Taiwanese, including the rebranding of some parts for better known suppliers, so less reluctant to use them.
e30m3Mark said:
Oh and in the quest for my giving the ''whole story'', my engine didn't fail on track. I was on the A30 heading up to Silverstone and had been sat at between 4 and 4.5K RPM for a little over an hour and from memory I don't recall any high G corners. Neither oil pressure or coolant temp' looked untoward and were certainly within normal parameters. The oil and filter had been changed the day before using Shell Helix 4-40 Ultra.
Then again this obviously isn't the whole story but I've now abandoned any hope of ever getting that. The rods could have been made from chocolate with wooden rod bolts and it wouldn't have mad a scrap of difference pottering along an A road. Either something drastic happened at an earlier time on track perhaps but didn't quite finish things off or there was a build fault in the engine. However in 30 years of designing and building race engines I've never come across a big end failure of this type, i.e. complete destruction and spun the shells, that happened over a period of time. It's usually instant when the oil supply stops. I can't see how you'd ever start something like that on track to the point it was terminal but only finish it off later when the engine wasn't even being used hard. There'd be god awful knocking and rumbling if the shells had worn out but not spun yet.All sorts of things are possible with engines. The wrong size shells being fitted, big end shells without an oil hole in the right place so oil can't get to the journal, a phone call at an inopportune moment and someone forgets to torque the big end bolts up, swarf in the crankshaft oil drillings that finds its way into the big ends. You say the oil was changed the previous day. Was the right amount put in to account for the modified sump? Who knows now?
The one thing you absolutely don't know, although you keep going back to it, is whether this was actually a rod issue but my years of experience, including as a forensic engine failure specialist, say it's very very unlikely. Without a forensic examination of the parts we'll never know and even then the causes might have been obliterated in the damage.
CarsOrBikes said:
OP you do keep saying you're not laying blame at ZRP's door, but you already have, and again just a couple of post ago. .
I said solely at ZRP's door. As I also said, there were at least 3 people involved to some degree, who questioned the quality of the rods. There wasn't a coolant leak. The alternator mount on an s14 is rubber bushed and this failed, which meant it threw the water pump belt. The engine wasn't run for long and coolant temp' peaked at 125 deg (I recall that from the info on the ECU) but I think that most likely started a chain of events where the rod quality played a part.
Mignon said:
disputatious stuff
Or maybe it was simply the quality of the rods was such that one failed, where a rod of known quality would have been fine? Just out of interest, do you mean under filling that sump that yesterday was of questionable design and most likely led to oil surge?
Edited by e30m3Mark on Monday 11th December 09:38
Don't know for the BMW blocks, but the VAG 1.8l turbo cast iron blocks distort if you stop cooling them when hot. Happend with a friend on track. Someones mishap forced him to stop. Engine stalled and he failed to restart. Towed off the track, a good half hour later we refilled some water, bleeded the system and after a few minutes the engine started to smoke and burn oil.
Upon disassmbly, we saw 4 worn areas in each "corner" ofthe cylinders. The bores have distroted. ebay is full of such blocks.
Root cause: partially stuch thermostat lead to overall higher coolant temps while running hard and overall lower temps when gently run on the street. He pushed hard despite of this. The emergency stop then led to boiling and death the engine. Luckly here just personal labor was involved as these engines are cheap as chips and were used internally unmodified in his car.
If you lost the cooling pump on track or after an hour on the motorway, bad things can, but must not happen. Overall higher coolant temps could be caused by a stuck thermostat. If you then lose the pump under load, you're quicly in trouble.
I therefore again would ask you to get your 4 rods plus bolts and shells back and send them to ZRP in Greece. Give them a call. They will get you a person on the phone who speaks english. Costs a few cents through skype or any other IP telephony service. I am sure they will examine them and find a solution for you. It is in your and in there interest. That is the advantage. Just like Arrow, they are not a anonymous ebay shop.
For the Honda K20, they now offer I-beam rods, but still also have the lightweight H-beam design in their program. I got their H-beam lightweight rod in 135.5mm.
ZRP Europe distributor Drakos Engineering claim that they QC all parts they receive from China before being sold. All ZRP producs sold in Europe pass through their shop. Let them examine the rods.
I'd feel bad if I would not know exacly why my engine has failed when you now dump a lot of money into a new build.
Upon disassmbly, we saw 4 worn areas in each "corner" ofthe cylinders. The bores have distroted. ebay is full of such blocks.
Root cause: partially stuch thermostat lead to overall higher coolant temps while running hard and overall lower temps when gently run on the street. He pushed hard despite of this. The emergency stop then led to boiling and death the engine. Luckly here just personal labor was involved as these engines are cheap as chips and were used internally unmodified in his car.
If you lost the cooling pump on track or after an hour on the motorway, bad things can, but must not happen. Overall higher coolant temps could be caused by a stuck thermostat. If you then lose the pump under load, you're quicly in trouble.
I therefore again would ask you to get your 4 rods plus bolts and shells back and send them to ZRP in Greece. Give them a call. They will get you a person on the phone who speaks english. Costs a few cents through skype or any other IP telephony service. I am sure they will examine them and find a solution for you. It is in your and in there interest. That is the advantage. Just like Arrow, they are not a anonymous ebay shop.
For the Honda K20, they now offer I-beam rods, but still also have the lightweight H-beam design in their program. I got their H-beam lightweight rod in 135.5mm.
ZRP Europe distributor Drakos Engineering claim that they QC all parts they receive from China before being sold. All ZRP producs sold in Europe pass through their shop. Let them examine the rods.
I'd feel bad if I would not know exacly why my engine has failed when you now dump a lot of money into a new build.
Edited by Ive on Monday 11th December 08:25
Edited by Ive on Monday 11th December 10:26
Sorry OP, I 'd forgotten what you said about coolant related overheat when typing late,
Even if you suggest ZRP are one of three factors when you don't 'know' what went wrong, and still link them to the failure because they're cheap or you perceive they are of poor quality based only on the opinion of one builder or such like, you are misled I think, and are implying blame inappropriately.
Irrespective of all that has been said, your failure ultimately did not arise from a broken rod, you have no small end issue, your builder can't perhaps disclose the cap torque state, the bolts are usually ARP2000 with ZRP rods, you may have different ARP fasteners I don't think you've said. You have said there were patches on the bearing. You don't appear to be able to accept the rod cannot be at fault in the failure of your engine. Any tolerance issue as stated, would have been detected by your builder if working to exacting standards.
If the engine builder was using something like engineers blue in the assembly, patchy transference would have shown up. If he had taken measurements in several places, discrepancies will have shown up. The bearings by design and torque requirements, installed with dry backs, are crushed into location. The only things left are lubrication, cooling, bearing, crankshaft, abuse, tuning, or the original assembly. The rod at this point, simply is not a factor. I'm not responding because of a loyalty to a part I've never used, and have disclosed I own some. The rod is not a causal part.
I think we'd all like you to accept the logic of what you're being told. It is sad that an expensive motor develops an issue, and very hard as a customer to sometimes collect the absolute truth behind why, so I'm certain we all empathise with the situation, however, you must by now have some understanding?
Even if you suggest ZRP are one of three factors when you don't 'know' what went wrong, and still link them to the failure because they're cheap or you perceive they are of poor quality based only on the opinion of one builder or such like, you are misled I think, and are implying blame inappropriately.
Irrespective of all that has been said, your failure ultimately did not arise from a broken rod, you have no small end issue, your builder can't perhaps disclose the cap torque state, the bolts are usually ARP2000 with ZRP rods, you may have different ARP fasteners I don't think you've said. You have said there were patches on the bearing. You don't appear to be able to accept the rod cannot be at fault in the failure of your engine. Any tolerance issue as stated, would have been detected by your builder if working to exacting standards.
If the engine builder was using something like engineers blue in the assembly, patchy transference would have shown up. If he had taken measurements in several places, discrepancies will have shown up. The bearings by design and torque requirements, installed with dry backs, are crushed into location. The only things left are lubrication, cooling, bearing, crankshaft, abuse, tuning, or the original assembly. The rod at this point, simply is not a factor. I'm not responding because of a loyalty to a part I've never used, and have disclosed I own some. The rod is not a causal part.
I think we'd all like you to accept the logic of what you're being told. It is sad that an expensive motor develops an issue, and very hard as a customer to sometimes collect the absolute truth behind why, so I'm certain we all empathise with the situation, however, you must by now have some understanding?
CarsOrBikes said:
Blablablah.
The guys above have said again clearly, that the rod itself is not the component in your engine which has failed. Also you have suffered a coolant leak you said, this will raise oil temp. You have said there was higher oil temp compared to your previous build, (unsure why were you having it rebuilt) so was the coolant leak a factor or something else? It won't and can't have been the rod, even as you say from the mappers comments that there were areas of the big end bearing that were worn, as these would have been checked for before final assembly by an exacting engine builder, and the bearing fits inside the rod, where it doesn't move against the rod, it's crushed if you like, into place, (and the gudgeon pin bush is pressed into place), how can it be the rod?
Blablablah
The rod has failed in some way, it was the effected and not the cause, that's the whole point.The guys above have said again clearly, that the rod itself is not the component in your engine which has failed. Also you have suffered a coolant leak you said, this will raise oil temp. You have said there was higher oil temp compared to your previous build, (unsure why were you having it rebuilt) so was the coolant leak a factor or something else? It won't and can't have been the rod, even as you say from the mappers comments that there were areas of the big end bearing that were worn, as these would have been checked for before final assembly by an exacting engine builder, and the bearing fits inside the rod, where it doesn't move against the rod, it's crushed if you like, into place, (and the gudgeon pin bush is pressed into place), how can it be the rod?
Blablablah
You don't know whether the pin was a press fit or floating, probably neither does he...
e30m3Mark said:
Mignon said:
disputatious stuff
Or maybe it was simply the quality of the rods was such that one failed, where a rod of known quality would have been fine? Just out of interest, do you mean under filling that sump that yesterday was of questionable design and most likely led to oil surge?
It's like getting blood out of an effing stone from you unless this is really some of weird trolling situation. First it apparently overheated on track so we assume this is a hard use track day failure, then the overheating is oil not water, then it's water again but the oil temperature was something different, then you mention the new sump, then suddenly it actually failed pottering about on an A road not a track day, oh and the oil had just been changed and after the mapper says "pistons" plural hitting the head so we assume several or all four bearings failed it's now just one of them but you never thought to mention that in the first place. This ain't normal even for some of the bizarre threads I can recall from 10 years in here and you my friend are weird. I'm out. Good luck with it.
Soo...back to simplicity.
How did the ZRP rods measure before installation...and how do they now measure up after the engine failure ? ( not rod failure of course, engine failure )
And you say you seen a coolant temp of 125degC ? Pretty sure that's f
ked by anyones standards and if pushing hard oil temp will be higher.
How did the ZRP rods measure before installation...and how do they now measure up after the engine failure ? ( not rod failure of course, engine failure )
And you say you seen a coolant temp of 125degC ? Pretty sure that's f
ked by anyones standards and if pushing hard oil temp will be higher.
Mignon said:
I'm wondering why we've been chasing our tails for 8 long pages on this ever changing story.
The story has remained the same. Mainly due to it being an actual event and not something conjured from fresh air.Mignon said:
My sympathies are now swinging back to the engine builder because you must be an absolute nightmare to deal with if you can't get a story even remotely straight after so long trying or make your mind up about what it is you actually want.
My engine builder is perfectly happy, as I do not struggle with interpersonal skills or communication. He has a good reputation and I am confident in his abilities. This is a forum, a place for discussion and there has been only one individual who hasn't remained respectful and open minded throughout the past 8 pages. Mignon said:
It's like getting blood out of an effing stone from you unless this is really some of weird trolling situation. First it apparently overheated on track so we assume this is a hard use track day failure, then the overheating is oil not water, then it's water again but the oil temperature was something different, then you mention the new sump, then suddenly it actually failed pottering about on an A road not a track day, oh and the oil had just been changed and after the mapper says "pistons" plural hitting the head so we assume several or all four bearings failed it's now just one of them but you never thought to mention that in the first place.
A list of assumptions, all of which were made by you and you alone so no point bleating about them. In fact, there is probably a lesson in there for you. Mignon said:
This ain't normal even for some of the bizarre threads I can recall from 10 years in here and you my friend are weird. I'm out. Good luck with it.
I'm guessing the irony is like an aeroplane?Somehow I don't think you'll be missed. Bye!
Meanwhile, back in the real world.
227bhp said:
The rod has failed in some way, it was the effected and not the cause, that's the whole point.
This.stevieturbo said:
Soo...back to simplicity.
How did the ZRP rods measure before installation...and how do they now measure up after the engine failure ? ( not rod failure of course, engine failure )
And you say you seen a coolant temp of 125degC ? Pretty sure that's fked by anyones standards and if pushing hard oil temp will be higher.
I'll mail the builder and see if I can get some actual data / measurements.How did the ZRP rods measure before installation...and how do they now measure up after the engine failure ? ( not rod failure of course, engine failure )
And you say you seen a coolant temp of 125degC ? Pretty sure that's f
ked by anyones standards and if pushing hard oil temp will be higher.Yes, the coolant peaked at 125 degC but I wasn't on track or even pushing on. In fact, it happened on the A30 at almost the same spot as the eventual failure. Maybe it just doesn't like leaving Cornwall?
Edited by e30m3Mark on Tuesday 12th December 10:23
Edited by e30m3Mark on Tuesday 12th December 10:24
ZRP also make a nice chunky I-Beam Rod. i'm tempered to try them out now that IE stopped making I-beam rods for some engines
https://www.zrp-rods.com/shop/audi-2-0l-tsi-chain-...
https://www.zrp-rods.com/shop/audi-2-0l-tsi-chain-...
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