High power turbo engine using oil
Discussion
So Im on a mission to discover and resolve why my Noble uses oil, lots of oil.... as a stock car it used very little and when i started modifying it I also started to maintain it and thus i would check the oil far more regularly and top up as required which makes it hard to judge how much it actually uses.
Anyhow I did a trip around Europe last year and took 2 litres of oil with me (space was tight and that would be more than enough for 2k miles surely)... anyhow 700miles later in Avignon I checked my oil, it was on the min (it takes 9 litres).... clearly i ended up using the 2 litres of oil there and then and then drove carefully for the next 700miles to Lemans, so no boost and mostly just cruising at 90mph, when i arrived it needed 2 litres again (friend bought some oil to lemans for me).
So facts on the car...
It doesn't drip even the smallest amount, breather exits under the car so any oil coming out there would drip.
No blue smoke at all.
Brief black smoke on cold start (its deliberately rich to help start it).
No oil in water system.
No oil in the intercooler.
Black smoke on throttle as its running rich.
I run a oil cooled turbo so removed the standard restrictor.
EGT in manifold (pre turbo) are high even on cruise, 650deg c plus on idle.
Oil pressure is 30psi on idle and a solid 50-60psi once rev'd.
Turbo doesn't have any significant play, its a variant of a BW S300SX.
Its always used oil after all the full engine builds (I've melted pistons and dropped valves so have effectively had new engines each time).
Now I appreciate the oil must be going out the exhaust somehow, but the pipe is sooty but not oily... Valve seals would give blue smoke on start, rings would give blue smoke on boost, if the breather was an issue it would drip oil and not do it when driven carefully.
So im kinda left with a theory that me not running the oil restrictor means i might be pushing oil past the turbo oil seal (hot side as nothings coming out the cold side).... but Ive not got much experience with this kind of issue and don't know if this would burn off or actually cause more blue smoke than some of the other suspects.
Whilst my turbo works really well it is old school and I am tempted to upgrade to roller bearing (prob EFR9180)... but its quite some work and i might need the cash to do a full refresh to find the issue... so I thought id ask for views from some of the turbo experts on here who may have a good idea what the hell the engine is doing lol.
Anyhow I did a trip around Europe last year and took 2 litres of oil with me (space was tight and that would be more than enough for 2k miles surely)... anyhow 700miles later in Avignon I checked my oil, it was on the min (it takes 9 litres).... clearly i ended up using the 2 litres of oil there and then and then drove carefully for the next 700miles to Lemans, so no boost and mostly just cruising at 90mph, when i arrived it needed 2 litres again (friend bought some oil to lemans for me).
So facts on the car...
It doesn't drip even the smallest amount, breather exits under the car so any oil coming out there would drip.
No blue smoke at all.
Brief black smoke on cold start (its deliberately rich to help start it).
No oil in water system.
No oil in the intercooler.
Black smoke on throttle as its running rich.
I run a oil cooled turbo so removed the standard restrictor.
EGT in manifold (pre turbo) are high even on cruise, 650deg c plus on idle.
Oil pressure is 30psi on idle and a solid 50-60psi once rev'd.
Turbo doesn't have any significant play, its a variant of a BW S300SX.
Its always used oil after all the full engine builds (I've melted pistons and dropped valves so have effectively had new engines each time).
Now I appreciate the oil must be going out the exhaust somehow, but the pipe is sooty but not oily... Valve seals would give blue smoke on start, rings would give blue smoke on boost, if the breather was an issue it would drip oil and not do it when driven carefully.
So im kinda left with a theory that me not running the oil restrictor means i might be pushing oil past the turbo oil seal (hot side as nothings coming out the cold side).... but Ive not got much experience with this kind of issue and don't know if this would burn off or actually cause more blue smoke than some of the other suspects.
Whilst my turbo works really well it is old school and I am tempted to upgrade to roller bearing (prob EFR9180)... but its quite some work and i might need the cash to do a full refresh to find the issue... so I thought id ask for views from some of the turbo experts on here who may have a good idea what the hell the engine is doing lol.
Are there any indications of oil passage on the intake valves ?
Detail your crankcase breather system ?
Rings/pistons/bore finish ? You mention various rebuilds, is this the only one to use oil ?
Do the plugs ever foul or show any indications of not running nice and clean ? ( ie from oil contamination )
Doubtful turbo is the issue, but if you can get a look at the turbine wheel...what colour is it ? Does it show any signs of dirty combustion from oil or similar ? Or dampness where oil itself might be passing ?
If using an older BW, a lot of the new SXE supercores are very cheap and would be a pretty easy swap.
Detail your crankcase breather system ?
Rings/pistons/bore finish ? You mention various rebuilds, is this the only one to use oil ?
Do the plugs ever foul or show any indications of not running nice and clean ? ( ie from oil contamination )
Doubtful turbo is the issue, but if you can get a look at the turbine wheel...what colour is it ? Does it show any signs of dirty combustion from oil or similar ? Or dampness where oil itself might be passing ?
If using an older BW, a lot of the new SXE supercores are very cheap and would be a pretty easy swap.
All the engines have used oil, various different pistons used finish is standard ford.... in fact my engine is identical to other high powered cars which don't use oil... however they run twin turbos and are water cooled units.
Plugs always look 'rich' dirty as des tail pipe... its soot and never wet or oily as is the tailpipe.
I had a new core in the turbo few years back along with a refresh, it still used oil afterwards although i never monitored it.
Block has a breather as do both the heads and they go into a pro alloy tank which vents under the car via a pipe (which is dry), return for the breather is via the front of the sump, turbo return is rear or sump but way above oil level.
Plugs always look 'rich' dirty as des tail pipe... its soot and never wet or oily as is the tailpipe.
I had a new core in the turbo few years back along with a refresh, it still used oil afterwards although i never monitored it.
Block has a breather as do both the heads and they go into a pro alloy tank which vents under the car via a pipe (which is dry), return for the breather is via the front of the sump, turbo return is rear or sump but way above oil level.
andygtt said:
All the engines have used oil, various different pistons used finish is standard ford.... in fact my engine is identical to other high powered cars which don't use oil... however they run twin turbos and are water cooled units.
Plugs always look 'rich' dirty as des tail pipe... its soot and never wet or oily as is the tailpipe.
I had a new core in the turbo few years back along with a refresh, it still used oil afterwards although i never monitored it.
Block has a breather as do both the heads and they go into a pro alloy tank which vents under the car via a pipe (which is dry), return for the breather is via the front of the sump, turbo return is rear or sump but way above oil level.
By finish, I'm referring to cylinder bores. Were these new blocks and untouched ? Or where they bored or honed by anyone ? What type of rings ? or just Ford items ?Plugs always look 'rich' dirty as des tail pipe... its soot and never wet or oily as is the tailpipe.
I had a new core in the turbo few years back along with a refresh, it still used oil afterwards although i never monitored it.
Block has a breather as do both the heads and they go into a pro alloy tank which vents under the car via a pipe (which is dry), return for the breather is via the front of the sump, turbo return is rear or sump but way above oil level.
Again look for traces, if it's using that much there would be some. If it was exiting the turbo, there should be some evidence inside the turbine housing or the turbine wheel.
If it was exiting the compressor side...again it would be seen in boost pipes or IC.
Valve seals etc...ect the inlet ports/valve stems for any signs.
After that, and if plugs arent overly clean then it must be back to bore finish/rings. It's a hell of a lot of oil to go through.
Rings are ford, finish on block has been machined/honed, but has also previously been stock ford as have had brand new block previously. Had new valve guides and seals as well.
Going to do compression leak test, but given that its always used oil after each build/rebuild and made huge power each time (more than almost all other nobles due to the turbo package) its unlikely to be an issue with poor rings etc as it wouldn't loose oil when not on boost... not ruling it out though as in all fairness i have no idea where it is going lol
Going to remove the exhaust and look at the turbo and see if i can see oil there, i already checked the other side and it was all clean with no traces.
Going to do compression leak test, but given that its always used oil after each build/rebuild and made huge power each time (more than almost all other nobles due to the turbo package) its unlikely to be an issue with poor rings etc as it wouldn't loose oil when not on boost... not ruling it out though as in all fairness i have no idea where it is going lol
Going to remove the exhaust and look at the turbo and see if i can see oil there, i already checked the other side and it was all clean with no traces.
andygtt said:
Rings are ford, finish on block has been machined/honed, but has also previously been stock ford as have had brand new block previously. Had new valve guides and seals as well.
Going to do compression leak test, but given that its always used oil after each build/rebuild and made huge power each time (more than almost all other nobles due to the turbo package) its unlikely to be an issue with poor rings etc as it wouldn't loose oil when not on boost... not ruling it out though as in all fairness i have no idea where it is going lol
Going to remove the exhaust and look at the turbo and see if i can see oil there, i already checked the other side and it was all clean with no traces.
Before I rebuilt mine over the winter, mine drunk oil like feck. Still made power, never smoked...but was bored/honed by morons in America.Going to do compression leak test, but given that its always used oil after each build/rebuild and made huge power each time (more than almost all other nobles due to the turbo package) its unlikely to be an issue with poor rings etc as it wouldn't loose oil when not on boost... not ruling it out though as in all fairness i have no idea where it is going lol
Going to remove the exhaust and look at the turbo and see if i can see oil there, i already checked the other side and it was all clean with no traces.
New rings, DIY hone and not using a drop now.
So following this thread of it possibly being rings or bore finish.... One thing my car is different is that it runs rich, could I have glazed the bores and caused the issue.... in my head leaking rings would pressurise the block rather than let loads of oil into the combustion chamber and I don't think i am getting any breathing issues as that would cumulate in either oil leaks or the breather exit being oily and i don't have either!
BTW I have experimented with different grades of oil, i now run a slightly thicker oil than others. also every noble out there uses the same ford rings regardless of piston as the 'new' pistons were designed to replicate the ring design (no idea why as they are not exactly cheap on their own). I don't have total seal rings or anything so fancy.
BTW I have experimented with different grades of oil, i now run a slightly thicker oil than others. also every noble out there uses the same ford rings regardless of piston as the 'new' pistons were designed to replicate the ring design (no idea why as they are not exactly cheap on their own). I don't have total seal rings or anything so fancy.
Running very rich could result in oil being washed from the bores which might accelerate bore wear, and also the oil being contaminated with petrol. Is it possible that would effectively thin the oil? If it's happening all the time, you would only need to be burning trace amounts of oil to get through a liter in a few hundred miles.
Evoluzione said:
What do you think you did different?
I dont think. The only change was the hone finish. Exact same ring pack used ( albeit a new set of course ). Although no idea how bad a "proper" machine shop in the US could get a bore finish that it would drink oil...vs a DIY ball flex hone.Only other change to the engine that might affect oil consumption was new stem seals as I also fitted new intake valves.
But despite the oil usage...which it did since I built it 2 years ago, it always ran fine, although towards the end it would foul a plug up now and again if I was too gentle with it which no other engine has ever done.
I just couldnt be bothered pulling it apart when it's so much easier to keep just adding oil lol.
Wanted to make some changes for this year, so sorted it all over winter.
i know it is a different engine, however there was a chap who had a K seri engine which used oil, and like you he didn't under where it was going.
the result of his investigation was the honing after the rebuilt was not done correctly.
Once re-done the engine was fine.
a link to the story:
https://www.lotus7.club/forum/techtalk/vvc-160-oil...
Jack
the result of his investigation was the honing after the rebuilt was not done correctly.
Once re-done the engine was fine.
a link to the story:
https://www.lotus7.club/forum/techtalk/vvc-160-oil...
Jack
Indulge me please, I know little of the Noble or the engine it uses but if it's a Ford and running standard Ford Pistons then it shouldn't be difficult to de-glaze and re-ring.
If you are using different Pistons than the Ford standard ones but using the Ford rings that could well be the problem.
If the aftermarket Pistons are forged and Fords aren't then you will need a different piston to bore clearance.
Ring gaps are important, again you will need to look at the required gaps and check.
I would never fit rings to a piston that were designed for another type of piston but confess to not having the deep understanding that many in this site have
If you are using different Pistons than the Ford standard ones but using the Ford rings that could well be the problem.
If the aftermarket Pistons are forged and Fords aren't then you will need a different piston to bore clearance.
Ring gaps are important, again you will need to look at the required gaps and check.
I would never fit rings to a piston that were designed for another type of piston but confess to not having the deep understanding that many in this site have
PaulKemp said:
Indulge me please, I know little of the Noble or the engine it uses but if it's a Ford and running standard Ford Pistons then it shouldn't be difficult to de-glaze and re-ring.
If you are using different Pistons than the Ford standard ones but using the Ford rings that could well be the problem.
If the aftermarket Pistons are forged and Fords aren't then you will need a different piston to bore clearance.
Ring gaps are important, again you will need to look at the required gaps and check.
I would never fit rings to a piston that were designed for another type of piston but confess to not having the deep understanding that many in this site have
As long as the rings are correct for the pistons and bore size...I'd doubt a wrong piston to bore clearance would be a major cause of oil consumption, unless it really was miles off. But then there would be other symptoms.If you are using different Pistons than the Ford standard ones but using the Ford rings that could well be the problem.
If the aftermarket Pistons are forged and Fords aren't then you will need a different piston to bore clearance.
Ring gaps are important, again you will need to look at the required gaps and check.
I would never fit rings to a piston that were designed for another type of piston but confess to not having the deep understanding that many in this site have
And ring gaps...really not important at all, except for too tight. Never too tight.
Little update
Not stripped the engine as i don't have a clean enough environment, however i have removed the turbo and already discovered 4 quite important issues:
1. There was a 15mm broken circlip stuck in the entrance of the turbo drain to the sump, thats in the actual oil ways itself and must have come off the shaft.... there is no play back and forth and only a little side to side (not excessive and might just be normal play for a float bearing turbo).
2. The inlet manifold and inlet valve runners have a film of wet oil, nothing major but its there and has ben cleaned only a few hundred miles earlier (as I've had it off to trial fit the ITB's)... there is absolutely NO film of oil before the throttle blade, in the intercooler or any of the plumbing from the turbo to the throttle.
3. One of the exhaust valves stems are wet within the head, clearly valve stem on that particular cylinder are gone, the others i could get to were dry and seemed OK.
4. 2 of the plug leads were wet with very dirty water, the worst was hidden under the inlet manifold and could never have had water ingress from rain etc.
Basically its well worn... Valve stem seals are clearly gone in the exhaust and inlet, turbo is coming apart and must be letting oil past the exhaust seals and i have a possible head gasket issue.
Good job its being rebuilt
I already had plans for the rebuild, fit an EFR9180 and Syvec S8 over winter along with the ITB's and DBW... only downside is i won't get a direct before and after comparison of the ITB's.
Incidentally we tested my ITB's on a totally stock NA engine.... they were slightly better low down, lost power between 4500-6500rpm however they didn't drop away after 6500 like the stock manifold. Stock NA engine redlines at 7000rpm and comparison is against a stock Plenum designed for the stock NA engine so i never expected to beat it.
Currently for my engine I am 'capping' the torque (using boost) between 4000-6000rpm and then increasing the boost higher up to allow the engine to rev to its 8000rpm redline.... so initially it looks like the calculations on runner lengths are spot on and its going to do exactly what i wanted i.e. to flatline the torque till redline.
Oh and they sounded glorious
Proof will be when i get it on the dyno on actuator pressure probably sometime early next year.
Not stripped the engine as i don't have a clean enough environment, however i have removed the turbo and already discovered 4 quite important issues:
1. There was a 15mm broken circlip stuck in the entrance of the turbo drain to the sump, thats in the actual oil ways itself and must have come off the shaft.... there is no play back and forth and only a little side to side (not excessive and might just be normal play for a float bearing turbo).
2. The inlet manifold and inlet valve runners have a film of wet oil, nothing major but its there and has ben cleaned only a few hundred miles earlier (as I've had it off to trial fit the ITB's)... there is absolutely NO film of oil before the throttle blade, in the intercooler or any of the plumbing from the turbo to the throttle.
3. One of the exhaust valves stems are wet within the head, clearly valve stem on that particular cylinder are gone, the others i could get to were dry and seemed OK.
4. 2 of the plug leads were wet with very dirty water, the worst was hidden under the inlet manifold and could never have had water ingress from rain etc.
Basically its well worn... Valve stem seals are clearly gone in the exhaust and inlet, turbo is coming apart and must be letting oil past the exhaust seals and i have a possible head gasket issue.
Good job its being rebuilt
I already had plans for the rebuild, fit an EFR9180 and Syvec S8 over winter along with the ITB's and DBW... only downside is i won't get a direct before and after comparison of the ITB's.
Incidentally we tested my ITB's on a totally stock NA engine.... they were slightly better low down, lost power between 4500-6500rpm however they didn't drop away after 6500 like the stock manifold. Stock NA engine redlines at 7000rpm and comparison is against a stock Plenum designed for the stock NA engine so i never expected to beat it.
Currently for my engine I am 'capping' the torque (using boost) between 4000-6000rpm and then increasing the boost higher up to allow the engine to rev to its 8000rpm redline.... so initially it looks like the calculations on runner lengths are spot on and its going to do exactly what i wanted i.e. to flatline the torque till redline.
Oh and they sounded glorious
Proof will be when i get it on the dyno on actuator pressure probably sometime early next year.
Gassing Station | Engines & Drivetrain | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff