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Removing Remap (VW)

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dtr

Original Poster:

69 posts

37 months

Wednesday 19th July
quotequote all
I have inherited presumably a very dodgy remap with the car and 4 months down the line it is still causing a lot of issues but no real benefits.
The main problem is turbo boost pressure reporting on VCDS (11: specified vs actual), which is almost always under 1atm or just above when flooring the car; turbo works and even brand new boost sensor was installed. That causes engine faults and limp mode over 70mph or going uphill.

I just want the remap gone so I can have a standard car than can be sorted out properly.

What are the options (in / near Birmingham) other than getting another, more sensible and more reputable remap? Is there a way to get dealership to do it? Sadly it is 1 year older than dieselgate cars so that update won't work.


bearman68

1,817 posts

52 months

Wednesday 19th July
quotequote all
You'll really struggle. If you cannot remove the map by going back to the dealer who did it, you have to use the existing map from a used ECU. Essentially buy the correct ECU, and copy the security data over to make it run.
It might, just might be possible to find someone who has a copy of the original map, and I have seen people selling them on the net, but I've never used them myself, and I don't know how reputable they are.

I have a similar issue with a Renault, and I was going to swap the ECU's.

Having said all that, remaps don't usually cause differences in turbo pressure. I would strongly suspect your issue is elsewhere. Run the engine at about 2k rpm - you should feel the rubber turbo hoses as very 'hard' with turbo pressure. If they are not,it's probably not your map.

Hope this helps a little.

thebraketester

4,827 posts

58 months

Wednesday 19th July
quotequote all
A decent garage/dealer should be able to flash your ECU back to stock.

bearman68

1,817 posts

52 months

Thursday 20th July
quotequote all
It really does sound to me that it's the turbo boost pressure that's the issue at this point in time, not the map.

Here's something I popped onto another thread about a similar problem.

Did a similar problem only yesterday.

Here's what I would do.

1) Remove the vac pipe from the turbo actuator, actuate it manually with a vac pump. Make sure it moves through it travel (normally about 20mm or so). Assuming it does, hold the vac as high as it will go,and go drive the car.

If it drives like a scalded cat, you have a control issue. If it drives flat, you have a mechanical problem.

Control issues - Vac pipes, N75 valve, actuator, Boost pressure sensor. ECU, wiring.
Mechanical issues. Blocked inlet (inc air filter), split turbo hose, jammed or otherwise faulty EGR valve. Blocked exhaust, bad turbo.

Job jobbed.
(My job yesterday was the last thing on the list - a duff turbo.

It later occured to me you could just bypass the N75 valve (turbo actuation valve) and connect direct to the vac pump, and that would save the manual vac pump.

I've prob got some graphs of good and bad actual v desired boost if you really wanted.

xjay1337

8,094 posts

38 months

Thursday 20th July
quotequote all
What engine do you have?
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stevieturbo

12,529 posts

167 months

Thursday 20th July
quotequote all
dtr said:
I have inherited presumably a very dodgy remap with the car and 4 months down the line it is still causing a lot of issues but no real benefits.
The main problem is turbo boost pressure reporting on VCDS (11: specified vs actual), which is almost always under 1atm or just above when flooring the car; turbo works and even brand new boost sensor was installed. That causes engine faults and limp mode over 70mph or going uphill.

I just want the remap gone so I can have a standard car than can be sorted out properly.

What are the options (in / near Birmingham) other than getting another, more sensible and more reputable remap? Is there a way to get dealership to do it? Sadly it is 1 year older than dieselgate cars so that update won't work.
So are you saying this car has never run correctly right from the point it was remapped ? But was perfectly fine before ?

Why has it taken 4 months to go back to whoever done it ?

Any decent remapping company can re-load a "standard" file back in. Unfortunately that will never be the 100% correct file for your vehicle as it was removed....but just a generic standard file, as close as they might have for your vehicle. Not correct, but still better than a crap remap if that is actally the cause of the problems.

And that is very possible

bearman68

1,817 posts

52 months

Thursday 20th July
quotequote all
The comment I would make is that it seems really unlikely that any mapper is going to specify turbo pressure at 1000 mbar. That's no turbo pressure at all, and anyone that gets this deep into it must have a better understanding than that. Not much wonder it's going into limp mode. If the car is meeting specified pressure, then the map is quite possibly bad, but the implication is the car is not reaching specified - in which case that has to be sorted irrelevant on what happens to the map. And you never know, sorting the pressure will no doubt make the map look a lot better.

OP, can you just clarify your group 11 measurement data - is specified and actual very close?

Cheers

xjay1337

8,094 posts

38 months

Thursday 20th July
quotequote all
stevieturbo said:
So are you saying this car has never run correctly right from the point it was remapped ? But was perfectly fine before ?

Why has it taken 4 months to go back to whoever done it ?

Any decent remapping company can re-load a "standard" file back in. Unfortunately that will never be the 100% correct file for your vehicle as it was removed....but just a generic standard file, as close as they might have for your vehicle. Not correct, but still better than a crap remap if that is actally the cause of the problems.

And that is very possible
All cars run the same basic software for ECU.

dtr

Original Poster:

69 posts

37 months

Thursday 20th July
quotequote all
Just to clarify, the actual displayed boost pressure actually goes down to under 900mbar with light accelerator touch and takes a lot to push it over 1100mbar at over 3000rpm. The point is you can't have positive pressure under 1atm. This is nonsense in physical terms. I've not seen such behaviour on any VW TDI before, even with a faulty turbo. I have a CR 2.0TDI passat and it happily goes up where it needs to be, and never ever down.
I have not saved the graph so I could only post it a new one when I collect it back tomorrow (engine mount change).

Remap came with a car, and it was frankly responsible for broken DMF and further significant collateral damage. All I know it is "extreme" version rated at 185bhp for the humble 8V BMM engine. Probably the strategy is to simulate low pressure condition by some software trickery causing turbo to work a lot harder, except it doesn't work.

Lots and lots of things have been changed and checked over the time, including boost sensor, MAF sensor, N75, recon turbo, oil changes and all filters, EGR clean, DPF clean, pipes checked by garage and far too much spent on it. I really don't want to replace these all over again randomly. Myself and the garage are out of ideas and are left with the bad map possibility.

dtr

Original Poster:

69 posts

37 months

Thursday 20th July
quotequote all
specified vs actual easily get some 300-500mbar apart. Actual starts going down, not up to begin with!

E-bmw

2,720 posts

72 months

Thursday 20th July
quotequote all
dtr said:
The point is you can't have positive pressure under 1atm.
You need to very specific here to make your statement correct.

1atm is normally equated to 1000mbar, 1000mbar is 14.503 psi.

Under normal circumstances (except for weather forecasters obviously) any measured pressure is measured in (insert units here) gauge, which, as the nature of this implies, is what you would see on a standard pressure gauge reference to zero.

There is another way of measuring pressure & that is called "absolute" which is zero at a "true vacuum".

Because a "true vacuum" is so hard to replicate all standard pressure measurements are in gauge, so if you see a pressure reading of "1atm" it will mean 1atm(gauge) and therefore you can get a positive pressure below 1atm.

To reinforce this, if you have a look at pretty much any boost gauge they typically start reading at around a hundred mbar (or 30inHg) below zero & then start to read positive pressures.

dtr

Original Poster:

69 posts

37 months

Thursday 20th July
quotequote all
Thing is we start at say 970 at idle, and then as the revs go up we go down to say 920 or lower before it goes up. I just don't understand how that works out.

stevieturbo

12,529 posts

167 months

Thursday 20th July
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
All cars run the same basic software for ECU.
Manufacturers change the map within the ecu often dozens, hundreds of times a year, for different models of car, for many reasons.

So "software" has little baring on the actual map the ecu has installed to run any particular engine. That is part of the problem with all the morons selling cheap generic remaps, because they too think one size fits all.

xjay1337

8,094 posts

38 months

Thursday 20th July
quotequote all
stevieturbo said:
Manufacturers change the map within the ecu often dozens, hundreds of times a year, for different models of car, for many reasons.

So "software" has little baring on the actual map the ecu has installed to run any particular engine. That is part of the problem with all the morons selling cheap generic remaps, because they too think one size fits all.
While I'm not a tuner, in the course of building my own project , I know if you take 2 VW cars , let's say a 2010 and 2011 version of a CBAB engine both running same ECU -an edc17cp14 the actual engine software (IE) the parameters that control fuelling, boost etc, are the same and you can freely copy the software and apply it.

In this case referencing people above saying buying another ECU, etc. Pointless.
My tuner would be able to flash it to stock software eliminating any issues that the unknown quality of remap is causing wuth regards to driveability.

Any decent tuner will have a stock file for OPs car.

For Birminghan area I would speak to Phil at TRP. No, I'm nit affiliated.

Edited by xjay1337 on Thursday 20th July 19:05

E-bmw

2,720 posts

72 months

Thursday 20th July
quotequote all
dtr said:
Thing is we start at say 970 at idle, and then as the revs go up we go down to say 920 or lower before it goes up. I just don't understand how that works out.
At what revs does it start to rise again?

xjay1337

8,094 posts

38 months

Friday 21st July
quotequote all
Rather than wasting everyones time with abstract numbers, actually use the logging functionality on VCDS. Log these blocks.

003-008-042
011-033-042

From memory these should be EGT, boost spec and actual and fuel InjQ and rail P.

To log, 3rd or ideally 4th gear. Start at around 1200rpm. Click "START/GO" on logging. Apply maximum throttle and hold until redline (approx 5k). Then stop logging.

You will have to do it at least twice to get all measuring blocks.

Log these on VCDS. Use Turbo mode if you have the option. Post up or Email me the log file here.

Without these it's impossible to tell what's actually going on and a waste of everyones time and energy.

annodomini2

5,452 posts

171 months

Friday 21st July
quotequote all
xjay1337 said:
stevieturbo said:
So are you saying this car has never run correctly right from the point it was remapped ? But was perfectly fine before ?

Why has it taken 4 months to go back to whoever done it ?

Any decent remapping company can re-load a "standard" file back in. Unfortunately that will never be the 100% correct file for your vehicle as it was removed....but just a generic standard file, as close as they might have for your vehicle. Not correct, but still better than a crap remap if that is actally the cause of the problems.

And that is very possible
All cars run the same basic software for ECU.
There are multiple ECU's supplied by multiple different suppliers all running different software written by different groups. All with different generations of those ECU's.

A Main Dealer will have access to the information of what is the correct latest SW/Tune variant for the vehicle and be capable of re-programming it, if they are willing.

dtr

Original Poster:

69 posts

37 months

Friday 28th July
quotequote all
I've finally had the chance to do the VCDS logs as requested

The whole thing is quite big to copy and paste in here so I'll post a link if you are willing to take a look for me please https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwwKMF47pTAjUVR1M...

Log 01-003 accel in 3rd from 43s - 60s. 87s - fault at normal acceleration in D.

Log 01-011 27-37s

02- hard acceleration in D (no fault) 13-27s

03 - fault at 52s

For some reason it started throwing up Exhaust gas temp sensor 2 bank 1 error. Sensor was replaced and same thing popped back up in just a mile along with boost fault, and now can't be erased.

If you need any specific graphs please let me know.


xjay1337 said:
Rather than wasting everyones time with abstract numbers, actually use the logging functionality on VCDS. Log these blocks.

003-008-042
011-033-042

From memory these should be EGT, boost spec and actual and fuel InjQ and rail P.

To log, 3rd or ideally 4th gear. Start at around 1200rpm. Click "START/GO" on logging. Apply maximum throttle and hold until redline (approx 5k). Then stop logging.

You will have to do it at least twice to get all measuring blocks.

Log these on VCDS. Use Turbo mode if you have the option. Post up or Email me the log file here.

Without these it's impossible to tell what's actually going on and a waste of everyones time and energy.

Arnold Cunningham

707 posts

173 months

Sunday 30th July
quotequote all
I've backed out a custom tune on my Audi before.

The biggest faff was backing up the existing custom tune first in case I ballsed things up - usually on a remap they lock the map so you can't download it easily - in my case, I had to put the ECU into boot mode to download the original tune, which involved booting it with a jumper across a couple of the ECU pins.

The 2nd biggest faff was getting a baseline stock tune to replace it with - you might end up needing to buy a used ECU to download the stock tune - but see links below....I managed to find an exactly correct 100% stock tune to use.

Once I was happy with the backup, I then overwrote it with a stock baseline to test/check some changes before then tweaking the tuned map myself and re-uploading it. There were a couple of sphincter quivery moments (you really don't want to knock the OBD lead midway through upload), but it worked fine and the car's now back running the modified tune but with the SAI coded out.

If you're feeling brave - because the learning curve is steep - blow your brains out over at http://www.nefariousmotorsports.com/wiki/index.php... and http://www.nefariousmotorsports.com/forum/

xjay1337

8,094 posts

38 months

Friday 4th August
quotequote all
dtr said:
I've finally had the chance to do the VCDS logs as requested

The whole thing is quite big to copy and paste in here so I'll post a link if you are willing to take a look for me please https://drive.google.com/file/d/0BwwKMF47pTAjUVR1M...

Log 01-003 accel in 3rd from 43s - 60s. 87s - fault at normal acceleration in D.

Log 01-011 27-37s

02- hard acceleration in D (no fault) 13-27s

03 - fault at 52s

For some reason it started throwing up Exhaust gas temp sensor 2 bank 1 error. Sensor was replaced and same thing popped back up in just a mile along with boost fault, and now can't be erased.

If you need any specific graphs please let me know.


xjay1337 said:
Rather than wasting everyones time with abstract numbers, actually use the logging functionality on VCDS. Log these blocks.

003-008-042
011-033-042

From memory these should be EGT, boost spec and actual and fuel InjQ and rail P.

To log, 3rd or ideally 4th gear. Start at around 1200rpm. Click "START/GO" on logging. Apply maximum throttle and hold until redline (approx 5k). Then stop logging.

You will have to do it at least twice to get all measuring blocks.

Log these on VCDS. Use Turbo mode if you have the option. Post up or Email me the log file here.

Without these it's impossible to tell what's actually going on and a waste of everyones time and energy.
Sorry for delay in response.

000665 - Boost Pressure Regulation
P0299 - 000 - Control Range Not Reached - MIL ON

This is underboost. Basically car is asking for a given amount of boost and it's not getting it.
This can be a boost leak but if the car has been tuned then it's usually a mapping issue.


Looking at it in this case it appears that from 1600rpm or so at full throttle the car requests 2570.4 mbar which is 1.5bar .

In Log03 at around 52s.

Specified 2570.4
Actual 1897.2

This is why you get limp mode for P0299.
start with stock software and see what happens