le control valve with Jenny ITB and general ECU advice
Discussion
Looking at converting my 1966 Mustang 302 V8 type engine to run Jenvey IDA type throttle bodies.
My thoughts turned to idle control and wondered how this would be done using an electronic type valve
Would it be a 8 little pipes taken off the pressure ports into one block then the going into the valve ?
Also any thoughts on standalone ECU
My last foray was with DTA but was thinking either Emerald mapped by Dave himself OR Omex mapped by Northampton motorsports
Any thoughts ?
Either I'm sure will be fine.
Most ecu's can do idle control via ignition timing these days. Not quite as wide a range as an air bypass, but quite adequate for most cars.
If Dave/Emerald are local to you then that would be a good choice.
Or if you have a good reputable DTA tuner near you, again it would be a good choice.
Or there really are dozens of ecu's out there these days, depending on your needs and budget
Most ecu's can do idle control via ignition timing these days. Not quite as wide a range as an air bypass, but quite adequate for most cars.
If Dave/Emerald are local to you then that would be a good choice.
Or if you have a good reputable DTA tuner near you, again it would be a good choice.
Or there really are dozens of ecu's out there these days, depending on your needs and budget
to be honest these days, the only reason you'd run ITBs is to allow you to run a REALLY hairy cam! (Because the small downstream ((of the throttle plates) volume means at low speed you get a much smoother running engine as the internal EGR is prevented from getting back up into the plenum.
Modern throttles on modern plenums (big volume!) make good power these days, ITBs really are not needed ime.
if you want to do it properly, take a leaf out of BMWs book and use an M5 electronic throttle actuator to drive the throttles:
Modern throttles on modern plenums (big volume!) make good power these days, ITBs really are not needed ime.
if you want to do it properly, take a leaf out of BMWs book and use an M5 electronic throttle actuator to drive the throttles:
stevieturbo said:
Either I'm sure will be fine.
Most ecu's can do idle control via ignition timing these days. Not quite as wide a range as an air bypass, but quite adequate for most cars.
If Dave/Emerald are local to you then that would be a good choice.
Or if you have a good reputable DTA tuner near you, again it would be a good choice.
Or there really are dozens of ecu's out there these days, depending on your needs and budget
I really need it to pick up the RPM for the aircon pump and PS pump. I remember how bad the DTA was Most ecu's can do idle control via ignition timing these days. Not quite as wide a range as an air bypass, but quite adequate for most cars.
If Dave/Emerald are local to you then that would be a good choice.
Or if you have a good reputable DTA tuner near you, again it would be a good choice.
Or there really are dozens of ecu's out there these days, depending on your needs and budget
Max_Torque said:
to be honest these days, the only reason you'd run ITBs is to allow you to run a REALLY hairy cam! (Because the small downstream ((of the throttle plates) volume means at low speed you get a much smoother running engine as the internal EGR is prevented from getting back up into the plenum.
Modern throttles on modern plenums (big volume!) make good power these days, ITBs really are not needed ime.
if you want to do it properly, take a leaf out of BMWs book and use an M5 electronic throttle actuator to drive the throttles:
E60 V10 Miss the sound of mine, got a build planed to put on in my 1971 C10 pick up. Modern throttles on modern plenums (big volume!) make good power these days, ITBs really are not needed ime.
if you want to do it properly, take a leaf out of BMWs book and use an M5 electronic throttle actuator to drive the throttles:
I do understand, but i have a big dirty carb at the moment with a compromise on inlet manifold, the only other option and it quite popular Is replacing the 4 barrel Holley with a 4 barrel EFI but still have the poor inlet manifold option.
stevieturbo said:
Quite true...
Although maybe with the old vehicle, the ITB's are for visuals/audio more than performance ?
Hell yes they do look nice, i have yet to hear a set TBH Although maybe with the old vehicle, the ITB's are for visuals/audio more than performance ?
In my experience if you give the engine enough air at idle and use very little advance then give idle control sufficient leeway/authority (up to 20 degrees) then it will handle the extra load from the AC or alternator loads without issue.
TB systems that do utilise an IACV normally use a gallery connected across the runners to which the IACV is plumbed, I guess you could use some discrete pipework and join it at a block to icy the IACV is attached, would probably look a bit Heath Robinson.
Although the majority of the Emeralds I install go to Dave, Northampton Motorsport are familiar with them and have mapped half a dozen or so from me wth no problems.
Dave
TB systems that do utilise an IACV normally use a gallery connected across the runners to which the IACV is plumbed, I guess you could use some discrete pipework and join it at a block to icy the IACV is attached, would probably look a bit Heath Robinson.
Although the majority of the Emeralds I install go to Dave, Northampton Motorsport are familiar with them and have mapped half a dozen or so from me wth no problems.
Dave
chippy348 said:
I really need it to pick up the RPM for the aircon pump and PS pump. I remember how bad the DTA was
Most inadequacies are usually down to the tuner less so the ecu, unless the specific model chosen was not an ideal one for the application...which again boils down to the owner or tuner.As said, you need to detail your specific needs for your application, then choose an ecu and tuner based around that. Idle control with uplift for various items is only a couple of those needs, no doubt there are many more.
If done correctly, DTA should have worked fine for you. ( of course this could also depend on how old etc your setup was, as firmware/options etc tend to improve over time so if yours was a decade or more ago...perhaps some features were not quite as good as today )
Either way, you could have an air bypass with DTA or also use ignition timing control for idle. ( dont recall if it can actually use both though as some ecu's will )
stevieturbo said:
Most inadequacies are usually down to the tuner less so the ecu, unless the specific model chosen was not an ideal one for the application...which again boils down to the owner or tuner.
As said, you need to detail your specific needs for your application, then choose an ecu and tuner based around that. Idle control with uplift for various items is only a couple of those needs, no doubt there are many more.
If done correctly, DTA should have worked fine for you. ( of course this could also depend on how old etc your setup was, as firmware/options etc tend to improve over time so if yours was a decade or more ago...perhaps some features were not quite as good as today )
Either way, you could have an air bypass with DTA or also use ignition timing control for idle. ( dont recall if it can actually use both though as some ecu's will )
Agree with the above, certainly the emerald can control the idle using both. In over 250 varied Emerald installs I have never yet had a problem wth idle control on TBs.As said, you need to detail your specific needs for your application, then choose an ecu and tuner based around that. Idle control with uplift for various items is only a couple of those needs, no doubt there are many more.
If done correctly, DTA should have worked fine for you. ( of course this could also depend on how old etc your setup was, as firmware/options etc tend to improve over time so if yours was a decade or more ago...perhaps some features were not quite as good as today )
Either way, you could have an air bypass with DTA or also use ignition timing control for idle. ( dont recall if it can actually use both though as some ecu's will )
Dave
DVandrews said:
In my experience if you give the engine enough air at idle and use very little advance then give idle control sufficient leeway/authority (up to 20 degrees) then it will handle the extra load from the AC or alternator loads without issue.
Dave
It's a technique called "Torque Reserve" where the engine is run at an excessive load (in terms of the slowpath, (airpath), ie throttle is run more open that it would need to overcome frictional losses if the ignition timing were to be at MBT/LBT ) and the fast path (ignition angle) is deliberately run away from MBT/LBT. This gives the fast path (so called because engine torque can be changed on a cylinder by cylinder basis, rather than having to wait for the throttle to move, the plenum to fill etc) a higher authority to modify the firing torque and hence it can dynamically control engine speed at idle. Dave
The trade off, for an aftermarket car is unimportant (increased fuel consumption, as a result of having to inject more fuel to stay at lambda 1 is of course these days a limiting factor for an OEM), and as long as you have a wide enough window of ignition timing in which to allow the ecu to operate, for most cases, the air path can be practically fixed, even for cold starting.
To really make it work, you should have sufficiently accurate open loop ignition trimming mapped against air, oil and, most importantly water temp, so that the idle controller does not wind it's integral up trying to compensate for known, fixed, frictional effects.
chippy348 said:
I really need it to pick up the RPM for the aircon pump and PS pump. I remember how bad the DTA was
If you want a glass smooth idle under all conditions, fit a PAS and A/C pressure sensor, and populate some feed forward lookup tables against the load of those systems. Lots of Aftermarket ecus have "spare" inputs that can be mapped to an ignition compensation table these days.BTW, one more random point!
On my rally car that runs ITB's with individual runner map sensing and electronic port throttles, i actually had to write and embed some specific speed control code that deliberately perturbs the idle speed target in a somewhat random fashion because the perfectly smooth idle that resulted from the optimum calibration just didn't make it sound like a rally car....... ;-)
On my rally car that runs ITB's with individual runner map sensing and electronic port throttles, i actually had to write and embed some specific speed control code that deliberately perturbs the idle speed target in a somewhat random fashion because the perfectly smooth idle that resulted from the optimum calibration just didn't make it sound like a rally car....... ;-)
DVandrews said:
In my experience if you give the engine enough air at idle and use very little advance then give idle control sufficient leeway/authority (up to 20 degrees) then it will handle the extra load from the AC or alternator loads without issue.
TB systems that do utilise an IACV normally use a gallery connected across the runners to which the IACV is plumbed, I guess you could use some discrete pipework and join it at a block to icy the IACV is attached, would probably look a bit Heath Robinson.
Although the majority of the Emeralds I install go to Dave, Northampton Motorsport are familiar with them and have mapped half a dozen or so from me wth no problems.
Dave
Thanks DV TB systems that do utilise an IACV normally use a gallery connected across the runners to which the IACV is plumbed, I guess you could use some discrete pipework and join it at a block to icy the IACV is attached, would probably look a bit Heath Robinson.
Although the majority of the Emeralds I install go to Dave, Northampton Motorsport are familiar with them and have mapped half a dozen or so from me wth no problems.
Dave
I think it will either be Dave with Emerald OR if going with Northampton I think Troy likes Omex.
To be honest not sure what the differences are between OMEX and K6, Omex says V8 can run sequential injectors where K6 is semi
Can you shed some light on this ?
stevieturbo said:
Most inadequacies are usually down to the tuner less so the ecu, unless the specific model chosen was not an ideal one for the application...which again boils down to the owner or tuner.
As said, you need to detail your specific needs for your application, then choose an ecu and tuner based around that. Idle control with uplift for various items is only a couple of those needs, no doubt there are many more.
If done correctly, DTA should have worked fine for you. ( of course this could also depend on how old etc your setup was, as firmware/options etc tend to improve over time so if yours was a decade or more ago...perhaps some features were not quite as good as today )
Either way, you could have an air bypass with DTA or also use ignition timing control for idle. ( dont recall if it can actually use both though as some ecu's will )
Full disclosure my time with DTA was back in 1994 and there was no idle control at all. I admit that I have not worked on a aftermarket management since then only OEM stuff. As said, you need to detail your specific needs for your application, then choose an ecu and tuner based around that. Idle control with uplift for various items is only a couple of those needs, no doubt there are many more.
If done correctly, DTA should have worked fine for you. ( of course this could also depend on how old etc your setup was, as firmware/options etc tend to improve over time so if yours was a decade or more ago...perhaps some features were not quite as good as today )
Either way, you could have an air bypass with DTA or also use ignition timing control for idle. ( dont recall if it can actually use both though as some ecu's will )
From yours and every one else’s reply this has come on leaps and bounds and the ICV may not be needed.
Max_Torque said:
It's a technique called "Torque Reserve" where the engine is run at an excessive load (in terms of the slowpath, (airpath), ie throttle is run more open that it would need to overcome frictional losses if the ignition timing were to be at MBT/LBT ) and the fast path (ignition angle) is deliberately run away from MBT/LBT. This gives the fast path (so called because engine torque can be changed on a cylinder by cylinder basis, rather than having to wait for the throttle to move, the plenum to fill etc) a higher authority to modify the firing torque and hence it can dynamically control engine speed at idle.
The trade off, for an aftermarket car is unimportant (increased fuel consumption, as a result of having to inject more fuel to stay at lambda 1 is of course these days a limiting factor for an OEM), and as long as you have a wide enough window of ignition timing in which to allow the ecu to operate, for most cases, the air path can be practically fixed, even for cold starting.
To really make it work, you should have sufficiently accurate open loop ignition trimming mapped against air, oil and, most importantly water temp, so that the idle controller does not wind it's integral up trying to compensate for known, fixed, frictional effects.
Thanks for the detailed explanation, like I said my experience is limited to the first type of DTA Ecu’s The trade off, for an aftermarket car is unimportant (increased fuel consumption, as a result of having to inject more fuel to stay at lambda 1 is of course these days a limiting factor for an OEM), and as long as you have a wide enough window of ignition timing in which to allow the ecu to operate, for most cases, the air path can be practically fixed, even for cold starting.
To really make it work, you should have sufficiently accurate open loop ignition trimming mapped against air, oil and, most importantly water temp, so that the idle controller does not wind it's integral up trying to compensate for known, fixed, frictional effects.
It looks like I am trying to fix a problem that does not exist, or that can be solved without the use of a ICV
MBE 9a9 can run an electronic throttle, and has plenty of inputs and sits in the happy middle ground in terms of cost (more than an Emerald/DTA, less than a MoTeC / Life etc)
It's also easy to map ime, with enough complexity to allow clever stuff if you want it, but not so much it confuses the average mapper!
It's also easy to map ime, with enough complexity to allow clever stuff if you want it, but not so much it confuses the average mapper!
Bit of a Up-date and some more help needed
Got the manifold and throttle bodies Via Jenvey, they have supplied some quite shallow (19mm tall) air horns / ram pipes.
Now I was going to look at running some air filters but I am now thinking of running it without any filters maybe with just a coarse mesh on them to stop big objects getting sucked in.
The car is going to be used for fast road fun and maybe the very odd track day.
Thoughts on running them open ?
Got the manifold and throttle bodies Via Jenvey, they have supplied some quite shallow (19mm tall) air horns / ram pipes.
Now I was going to look at running some air filters but I am now thinking of running it without any filters maybe with just a coarse mesh on them to stop big objects getting sucked in.
The car is going to be used for fast road fun and maybe the very odd track day.
Thoughts on running them open ?
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