Car had trouble starting, then turned off at stop or low

Car had trouble starting, then turned off at stop or low

Author
Discussion

cornflakes2

Original Poster:

230 posts

78 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
GreenV8S said:
It seems you've found somebody competent to investigate the problem. That's a good idea. Let them get on with it. Your 'simple deduction and reasoning' is mostly nonsensical. It's clear you have no understanding of engines and no idea what the symptoms indicate. And that's fine, no reason you should have. But please stop pretending you're diagnosing the problem.
Really? Then why don't you suggest something better because you haven't said anything. My deduction is very reasonable and it's pretty accurate. If I'm wrong, please correct me, instead of just sitting there like you are an expert to judge me when you haven't contributed a single thing. As I said, it's not a wearing out clutch, it's doubtful it's a low transmission fluid, we know it's not a dying battery, it's not a bad fuel pump, so it only comes down to this oil leak around the engine seals, possible electrical/wiring issue and/or something related to either the coils or spark plugs.

How is this unreasonable? For a guy who isn't trained in auto mechanics, I'd say this is pretty good detective work so far. What have you contributed? I appreciate the people who have something constructive to add to this mystery/puzzle (which all car problems are..it's basically like detective work ...same with doctors), but those who want to just criticize without having anything original of their own to add to this should just not reply. I don't need arrogant mechanics here to be condescending.

As I said, even VW dealership couldn't figure out a simple turbo leak and a private mechanic caught that EASILY and saved me 3000 dollars. That's the difference between honest mechanics who know their stuff and mechanics who are just lazy and tell you to replace a dozen parts without actually investigating.



cornflakes2

Original Poster:

230 posts

78 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
Mexman said:
You paid a grand for a 2001 Matiz ???? eek
Please don't tell me this was recently?
Its £200 Quid's worth, if that.
As others have said, you shouldn't assume. I did not pay a grand (quid). I'm in a foreign country where a grand here is probably about $750 USD. I've had it for 18 months so, yes, I got my value from it and then some if you do the math. It's not like I'm getting ripped off here. Also, with only 72,000 km at the time...most used cars around here don't sell for under a grand. You'd be looking at around 1.5K - 2.5K for a early 2000ish car with 100,000 km on it give or take....


cornflakes2

Original Poster:

230 posts

78 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
freddytin said:
I think you are overthinking the problem. The Matiz is a simple reliable car, and from the lengthy description of the issue it seems as if it's misfiring on one cylinder.

A new set of ignition leads and plugs should see the old girl back in " Action" . smile
Agreed Freddy. That's why it's very cheap around here, maintenance costs, road tax, toll fees, insurance is VERY CHEAP for the matiz car. I pay only $40 a year for tax, and only $250 for car insurance for the whole year. I spend only $40 per month on gas. It's super popular for low budget economical daily driver for short runs and errands. There are plenty around here and yes, they are one of the simplest and most basic and cheapest cars to maintain, repair and deal with especially since I'm living in the country of the manufacturer of this car.

Funny thing is the car has been working fine again for the past 2 days now...I drove it back and forth to work and it's been no problem!
It bugs me more when something doesn't work then suddenly works again because I have no idea what to expect and will worry it can happen again at anytime. I'd rather the car just be permanently damaged so that I can rest my case and just scrap it and buy another one. But since it's working fine and we are still in the process of checking on it, I have to deal with it for now until the next time it happens. I'm also one of those people who don't like throwing things away if they can be fixed. I prefer to salvage things, give it a chance, and find solutions to repair or prolong the life rather than to just throw it away, wipe my hands clean, and start brand new over again.

Edited by cornflakes2 on Wednesday 17th July 16:34

GreenV8S

30,210 posts

285 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
cornflakes2 said:
GreenV8S said:
It seems you've found somebody competent to investigate the problem. That's a good idea. Let them get on with it. Your 'simple deduction and reasoning' is mostly nonsensical. It's clear you have no understanding of engines and no idea what the symptoms indicate. And that's fine, no reason you should have. But please stop pretending you're diagnosing the problem.
Really? Then why don't you suggest something better because you haven't said anything. My deduction is very reasonable and it's pretty accurate.
I don't see any point. Other posters have already given you diagnostic advice which I think is entirely sensible and would have enabled somebody with basic mechanical skills and a willingness to get their hands dirty to locate the problem. From your responses it's clear that you are not that person. That's not meant as an insult; very few people have practical experience fixing cars and there's no reason you should have.

You seem to think that you are reasoning your way to a diagnosis. My reply was trying to advise you that your reasoning does not actually make much sense and that you would be better off stepping back and letting your mechanic get on with it. I think that if you read the other recent responses in this thread you will get the sense that I am not the only one thinking that.

FiF

44,140 posts

252 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
Just to throw one thing into the mix, these cars are known for an issue with the wiring loom in the engine bay where it passes over the gearbox. Quite a few had a wire trapped or nipped during assembly, over the years it fatigues and you get an intermittent fault, sometimes it runs, sometimes it runs badly rather like a bad misfire and sometimes it just won't start or dies abruptly when running. Ask me how I know.

stevieturbo

17,271 posts

248 months

Wednesday 17th July 2019
quotequote all
Another internet thread strikes again.

Sell the car and buy another that doesnt have any faults.


But a competent mechanic could perform many tests....all at your expense. But if this intermittent problem is not actually happening at the time...all the tests in the world, at any cost may not help.

So are you prepared to pay for all this ? On a car that has little monetary value ? it makes little sense.

If you do not understand how to diagnose vehicle problems, or their systems, or how they work, there is no sense in trying to apply your own so called logic or reasoning to how others might do so. Especially those with actual experience.
Even more so an intermittent problem, which can be a myriad of things.

Diagnosing problems can be very difficult, and the worst are intermittent ones.

cornflakes2

Original Poster:

230 posts

78 months

Thursday 18th July 2019
quotequote all
GreenV8S said:
I don't see any point. Other posters have already given you diagnostic advice which I think is entirely sensible and would have enabled somebody with basic mechanical skills and a willingness to get their hands dirty to locate the problem. From your responses it's clear that you are not that person. That's not meant as an insult; very few people have practical experience fixing cars and there's no reason you should have.

You seem to think that you are reasoning your way to a diagnosis. My reply was trying to advise you that your reasoning does not actually make much sense and that you would be better off stepping back and letting your mechanic get on with it. I think that if you read the other recent responses in this thread you will get the sense that I am not the only one thinking that.
Yeah and if you read other people's posts, you would see that they gave me good advice and contributed to my problem solving work here so they can say that. You haven't offered anything other than to assume you know me and think I don't know anything about cars.

I really appreciate all the awesome people here who give me good advice and keep it professional and stay on topic, but I'm not surprised there are always those few people that feel the need to turn it personal and sit there and act all condescending without adding any value to the discussion.

Nobody is asking you for an opinion about the way I problem solve. If you have something to say about the actual topic, please feel free to add, but other than, please keep your own judgments to yourself.

cornflakes2

Original Poster:

230 posts

78 months

Thursday 18th July 2019
quotequote all
FiF said:
Just to throw one thing into the mix, these cars are known for an issue with the wiring loom in the engine bay where it passes over the gearbox. Quite a few had a wire trapped or nipped during assembly, over the years it fatigues and you get an intermittent fault, sometimes it runs, sometimes it runs badly rather like a bad misfire and sometimes it just won't start or dies abruptly when running. Ask me how I know.
Thanks for that pointer! This is very good to know (which I didn't!).
I'm grateful you mentioned this because it sounds like what I am experiencing!

cornflakes2

Original Poster:

230 posts

78 months

Thursday 18th July 2019
quotequote all
stevieturbo said:
Another internet thread strikes again.

Sell the car and buy another that doesnt have any faults.


But a competent mechanic could perform many tests....all at your expense. But if this intermittent problem is not actually happening at the time...all the tests in the world, at any cost may not help.

So are you prepared to pay for all this ? On a car that has little monetary value ? it makes little sense.

If you do not understand how to diagnose vehicle problems, or their systems, or how they work, there is no sense in trying to apply your own so called logic or reasoning to how others might do so. Especially those with actual experience.
Even more so an intermittent problem, which can be a myriad of things.

Diagnosing problems can be very difficult, and the worst are intermittent ones.
Yup, agreed. That's the debate I'm having which is the problem. I know I could easily buy another used car. The struggle is just trying to figure out and get a straight answer from anyone (mechanic that I visit) to tell me what the problem is, how much it costs to repair it so that I can make my decision if it's worth it or not. So far, since the costs are minimal (spark plug/coilover/wiring harness change), I am willing to go that far. Anything more than that or a couple hundred bucks range, I'll probably decide to just get another used car.

You are absolutely right about mechanics being able to do all the tests in the world on my car AT MY EXPENSE and still not figure out the problem. That's what's frustrating about it. That's why it reminded me about my turbo leak issue and how sometimes the problem is SO SIMPLE but because of incompetency on their end, I end up having to pay a 3K bill, but thankfully I had honest mechanics who were competent and saved me 3K. If even VW dealership were caught to be this incompetent, with all due respect, of course whenever I ask any questions on internet boards, I always take the responses from people with a grain of salt.
It's more about just learning through these experiences and getting as much input and details to widen my understanding.


freddytin

1,184 posts

228 months

Thursday 18th July 2019
quotequote all
Back Again, with a simple suggestion to eliminate the possibility of a short on the H.T. circuit causing a miss-fire.

Ideally, you require darkness and silence, then armed with a water mist spray / bottle of some kind gently wet the areas from the ignition coil along the leads to the plugs.
If you have a breakdown in the insulation, there will be significant sparks accompanied by a noticeable cracking sound.

This is something you can do to help identify the issue which negates the need for you to spend unnecessarily.
Good Luck, and please don't take comments the wrong way from other contributors. It is clear they are only offering what they feel is sound advice....even if that means "Leave Well Alone". biggrin

Edit to add. When you have finished, spray dampened areas with W.D 40 and dry with a clean lint-free cloth..I wouldnt want to be causing you further troubles smile

Edited by freddytin on Thursday 18th July 08:17

cornflakes2

Original Poster:

230 posts

78 months

Saturday 20th July 2019
quotequote all
freddytin said:
Back Again, with a simple suggestion to eliminate the possibility of a short on the H.T. circuit causing a miss-fire.

Ideally, you require darkness and silence, then armed with a water mist spray / bottle of some kind gently wet the areas from the ignition coil along the leads to the plugs.
If you have a breakdown in the insulation, there will be significant sparks accompanied by a noticeable cracking sound.

This is something you can do to help identify the issue which negates the need for you to spend unnecessarily.
Good Luck, and please don't take comments the wrong way from other contributors. It is clear they are only offering what they feel is sound advice....even if that means "Leave Well Alone". biggrin

Edit to add. When you have finished, spray dampened areas with W.D 40 and dry with a clean lint-free cloth..I wouldnt want to be causing you further troubles smile

Edited by freddytin on Thursday 18th July 08:17
Thanks again for the tip.
I was just watching this video by ChrisFix and he lays out very clearly and simply the 5 things to check for when you have a crank but the engine doesn't start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNhuDCVIydw

It's so clear and beautiful and works just like solving a mystery by deduction and simply narrowing down the possible causes until you find it.

After it drove fine for a couple more days, I left it parked for about 3 days and it was lightly raining outside and I went to start the car again and same thing happened....long cranking but no engine starting. I'm wondering if dampness/wetness maybe causing a short (or it ground?) in the distributor cap...I just saw another video about drying the distributor / coils to start a car that cranks but doesn't start. I will have to give that a try also.

But I do recall when I was at the shop, they hosed it down with water(?) or some kind of cleaning spray so I'd imagine if it was water, wouldn't that make my car not start when it was there? After they sprayed it down (cleaning), it started up and ran just fine out of the garage....so that sort of goes opposite to my thoughts.

UPDATE: It was dark here so I did a water mist spray and brought my gopro to record the engine area while I cranked it and there was no evidence of any spark or cracking sounds.

Would plugging in a bluetooth OBD2 device work with this model matiz? I have one I used for my VW but I guess I should try and see if it works on this car and if I can pull any fault codes to tell me what the problem is.



Edited by cornflakes2 on Saturday 20th July 18:23

Coilspring

577 posts

64 months

Saturday 20th July 2019
quotequote all
[quote=cornflakes2]

Thanks again for the tip.
I was just watching this video by ChrisFix and he lays out very clearly and simply the 5 things to check for when you have a crank but the engine doesn't start: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNhuDCVIydw

It's so clear and beautiful and works just like solving a mystery by deduction and simply narrowing down the possible causes until you find it.




Edited by cornflakes2 on Saturday 20th July 18:23
[/quote


Only 5 things? Im very impressed.

The engine only needs, correct mixture, compression, a spark at the right time and it will run.

The only problem being all the controls and features around such basics.

Have you checked the oil level ?

cornflakes2

Original Poster:

230 posts

78 months

Sunday 21st July 2019
quotequote all
Yes, the oil level is perfect.
Tonight I'm going to check if I can connect to the OBD2 port and see if I can pull any fault codes if the car doesn't want to start again.
The other thing I believe I should be able to check without much problem is the fuel pressure. I just have to find where the schrader valve is
and get some cloth around it and press it with screw driver and see if oil comes spraying out (which would mean fuel pressure is not the problem).
Since I don't have one of those manual fuel pressure gauges, this is the method I found on the net to test it.

I don't have the tools to take out the spark plugs and check to see if all of them have spark while cranking the engine nor do I have that little gap spacing
device to check to see if the gaps are good.

I would really like to buy a bunch of these handy tools to use at home for maintenance and self-checking. I really think most of the basic maintenance checks can be done by ourselves....anything more complicated then the mechanics should deal with that but I'm a bit disappointed how mechanics here (the shop I went to) don't even perform the basics tests as I mentioned above...why didn't they check the fuel pressure? spark plugs? ...the only thing I saw them do was a visual check, hose down the engine to clean the leak and spent about 1 hour total (40 minutes waiting, 20 minutes service) and I got charged 33 bucks ....

Coilspring

577 posts

64 months

Sunday 21st July 2019
quotequote all
cornflakes2 said:
Yes, the oil level is perfect.
Tonight I'm going to check if I can connect to the OBD2 port and see if I can pull any fault codes if the car doesn't want to start again.
The other thing I believe I should be able to check without much problem is the fuel pressure. I just have to find where the schrader valve is
and get some cloth around it and press it with screw driver and see if oil comes spraying out (which would mean fuel pressure is not the problem).
Since I don't have one of those manual fuel pressure gauges, this is the method I found on the net to test it.

I don't have the tools to take out the spark plugs and check to see if all of them have spark while cranking the engine nor do I have that little gap spacing
device to check to see if the gaps are good.

I would really like to buy a bunch of these handy tools to use at home for maintenance and self-checking. I really think most of the basic maintenance checks can be done by ourselves....anything more complicated then the mechanics should deal with that but I'm a bit disappointed how mechanics here (the shop I went to) don't even perform the basics tests as I mentioned above...why didn't they check the fuel pressure? spark plugs? ...the only thing I saw them do was a visual check, hose down the engine to clean the leak and spent about 1 hour total (40 minutes waiting, 20 minutes service) and I got charged 33 bucks ....
You are also paying for their experience and knowledge.

A lot can be worked out by just looking and listening, no tools needed.

cornflakes2

Original Poster:

230 posts

78 months

Sunday 21st July 2019
quotequote all
Agreed but unfortunately they didn't actually do anything as far as fixing the problem or even find the problem.
If they at least found the problem and did something, I have no problem paying. But simply telling me what I already
knew and could see for myself, making me wait 40 minutes of my time (I had to take off work) and then charging me 33 bucks
just seems little stiff to me.

I've had experiences where mechanics would do visual checks, even OBD2, do minor cleaning with brake cleaner, fill air in
my tires and never charge me anything because they didn't find the problem or do anything. One time I had a guy actually
take out my throttle body and just wipe it around and put it back in and it looked like it wasn't that easy for him but he didn't charge
me anything because it was just a checking/trying to diagnose the issue.

The difficult part with mechanic shops is that the lines are very blurry. There's no concrete or set rule as to when the clock starts ticking
on being charged for their time, what constitutes labor, what constitutes something valid for being charged for.

If it's a mechanic you know, have had history with, had fixed and serviced your vehicles before, then that's a different story. You have a working
relationship with them and you know them. But whenever I go to new shops that I have no idea who they are and what their reputation is like,
its seriously a guessing game. Some do a lot of service and barely charge you a dime. Others do almost nothing and charge you 20 bucks or something for just being in their space.

The last time I was here, I mentioned they just topped off my oil, and it's not like they were using synthetic or any high quality oil and I could have
just bought a bottle myself for $5 and do it myself but they charged me $15...I don't know how they come to that total but I didn't bother to ask and I just paid it.

Anyways, if the car starts in the morning, I'll be taking it back to them to see what they find now it's been a few days. I guess I better ask up front how much they are going to charge me this time for taking a 2nd look.

cornflakes2

Original Poster:

230 posts

78 months

Sunday 21st July 2019
quotequote all
I tried starting the car again tonight and didn't turn on...just long cranking. It rained all day so it was still very damp and wet... my hypothesis about the wet/damp air/conditions or moisture still seems to be consistent. It turns on when the whether was nice hot and sunny, and the days it didn't turn on was early in the morning or on raindy/wet days. Maybe just coincidence.

I have the ELM327 mini OBDII bluetooth device but it seems like the shape was different and I wasn't able to plug it into my matiz OBDII port.
I'm not sure if the ELM327 mini is compatible but I thought it would be....it has 16 pins just like all OBDII ports and the matiz but the shape of the port on the matiz is rectangular the ELM327 mini I have is a trapezoid.

Next I checked this schrader valve...I don't know if this is the fuel pressure line or something else. I pressed it with a screw driver and the pressure was very strong however I was expecting gas/fuel to come flying out but I only got air. Is this not the fuel line? Maybe it's another line I tapped into.
The picture is below:




I also checked this wire in the picture below (labeled B) and I took it off and put it back on. I don't know what it is (labeled A). When I looked into the wire, it looked like there were some loose wires inside and the little nipple it goes onto is just a solid piece of metal...not connectors or anything. Is that supposed to be like that?



The timing belt (tensioner belt?) was nice and tight so I don't think it's a "timing" issue which was checklist number 5 (on ChrisFix video).



Here's the pic of what it looks like when the yellow end of the wire is fastened back onto that metal nipple.



Edited by cornflakes2 on Sunday 21st July 16:33

OnTheEdge

94 posts

63 months

Sunday 21st July 2019
quotequote all
cornflakes2 said:
Next I checked this schrader valve...I don't know if this is the fuel pressure line or something else. I pressed it with a screw driver and the pressure was very strong however I was expecting gas/fuel to come flying out but I only got air. Is this not the fuel line? Maybe it's another line I tapped into.
You've just let some gas out of the air conditioning system.

cornflakes2 said:
I also checked this wire in the picture below (labeled B) and I took it off and put it back on. I don't know what it is (labeled A). When I looked into the wire, it looked like there were some loose wires inside and the little nipple it goes onto is just a solid piece of metal...not connectors or anything. Is that supposed to be like that?
That appears to be a power steering pump, that wire is likely connected to a pressure sensor that raises the idle speed if operating the steering. It won't have anything to do with the issues mentioned in your first post.

cornflakes2 said:
The timing belt (tensioner belt?) was nice and tight so I don't think it's a "timing" issue which was checklist number 5 (on ChrisFix video).
Did you really check the timing belt, or was it the auxiliary belt you can see in your pictures?

Mexman

2,442 posts

85 months

Sunday 21st July 2019
quotequote all
OnTheEdge said:
Did you really check the timing belt, or was it the auxiliary belt you can see in your pictures?
banghead
Is this thread a fking wind up?

E-bmw

9,240 posts

153 months

Sunday 21st July 2019
quotequote all
Mexman said:
OnTheEdge said:
Did you really check the timing belt, or was it the auxiliary belt you can see in your pictures?
banghead
Is this thread a fking wind up?
Unfortunately it isn't a wind up and you may be surprised to hear he isn't a mechanic but he is being thorough logical & it all makes sense...….. getmecoat

Dave.

7,380 posts

254 months

Sunday 21st July 2019
quotequote all
Just put some god damn new plugs and leads in it already! laugh

It'll cos you fk all, take 10mins, and rule them out if it doesn't fix it, at which point get some new coils or a coilpack, again, costs buttons and will take 5mins.