Audi S6 engine failure

Audi S6 engine failure

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Discussion

CDP

6,398 posts

215 months

Wednesday 11th November 2020
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320d is all you need said:
wave_watcher said:
Ah ha.... a twist in the tail. Apparently the fuel injectors are going to come back to us. I’ll need to find somewhere to get them tested. Can anyone say what testing might cost and who does this sort of work?
Just google ANSU fuel injector testing.

Just send the injectors off for testing nothing more. ask for a full report.

I presume they will all come back fully functional. I would then go back to Audi asking for a refund on the cost of the injectors on the basis of the report.
If they all come back non functioning get their serial numbers and request Audi confirm whether or not they were the parts fitted to the car. I'm sure their engineering (as opposed to customer services) team would be interested to see all of them fail at once.

wave_watcher

Original Poster:

32 posts

3 months

Wednesday 11th November 2020
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Just following the comments above, would all the fuel injectors need to fail to make the car die as it did, or could failure of a couple of injectors cause the failure?

Richard-D

490 posts

25 months

Wednesday 11th November 2020
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It would take a few to fail simultaneously to cause the engine to stop running. I don't believe It's possible for that to be the initial fault. I also don't believe that any mechanic/technician would replace them all believing that was the cause either. It seems far more likely to me that they've diagnosed something else as being the cause, found an issue with an injector (maybe multiple of) during investigation and replaced them all while the engine was out. Chinese whispers could account for the rest.

That is a slightly charitable view though which is easier for me to take because it isn't my money.

wave_watcher

Original Poster:

32 posts

3 months

Wednesday 11th November 2020
quotequote all
This is getting interesting...... so the engine failed, and during my visit to the garage I was shown a turbo which had 2mm lateral movement on the impeller. I was told this was a sign of turbo failure. BUT I think 2mm is a tolerable amount of movement and wouldn't be enough to diagnose a failed turbo. The blades of the impeller were intact. I assume there are two turbos since it's a twin turbo engine (you can see my knowledge level is high), so it would have been useful to see the other turbo..... Also, I'm not being given the turbos as Audi have covered the cost of replacing these and the associated labour for the second engine removal, therefore we were told they don't belong to us. I'm going down to the garage tomorrow to get the surgically removed parts and the paperwork.

320d is all you need

1,168 posts

4 months

Wednesday 11th November 2020
quotequote all
wave_watcher said:
This is getting interesting...... so the engine failed, and during my visit to the garage I was shown a turbo which had 2mm lateral movement on the impeller. I was told this was a sign of turbo failure. BUT I think 2mm is a tolerable amount of movement and wouldn't be enough to diagnose a failed turbo. The blades of the impeller were intact. I assume there are two turbos since it's a twin turbo engine (you can see my knowledge level is high), so it would have been useful to see the other turbo..... Also, I'm not being given the turbos as Audi have covered the cost of replacing these and the associated labour for the second engine removal, therefore we were told they don't belong to us. I'm going down to the garage tomorrow to get the surgically removed parts and the paperwork.
On Journal bearings some radial play is OK but axial play (in and out) should be a sign of failure.

Usually if you have an oil seal failure you'll see signs of oil on the compressor wheel or usually on the turbine housing although it may burn off.

You'd see any contact between the compressor housing and the compressor wheel easily.

My main point of argument would be the Injectors.

stevieturbo

15,152 posts

208 months

Wednesday 11th November 2020
quotequote all
wave_watcher said:
Ah ha.... a twist in the tail. Apparently the fuel injectors are going to come back to us. I’ll need to find somewhere to get them tested. Can anyone say what testing might cost and who does this sort of work?
As already said, ASNU will do it. Given the outlay already, shouldnt be a horrendous cost.

Normal injectors are only around £10 per injector, although the direct injection ones might be more than that.

stevieturbo

15,152 posts

208 months

Wednesday 11th November 2020
quotequote all
Chris32345 said:
Probably sent back for surcharge on the replacements
Not at a dealers, and certainly not without owners permission

stevieturbo

15,152 posts

208 months

Wednesday 11th November 2020
quotequote all
wave_watcher said:
This is getting interesting...... so the engine failed, and during my visit to the garage I was shown a turbo which had 2mm lateral movement on the impeller. I was told this was a sign of turbo failure. BUT I think 2mm is a tolerable amount of movement and wouldn't be enough to diagnose a failed turbo. The blades of the impeller were intact. I assume there are two turbos since it's a twin turbo engine (you can see my knowledge level is high), so it would have been useful to see the other turbo..... Also, I'm not being given the turbos as Audi have covered the cost of replacing these and the associated labour for the second engine removal, therefore we were told they don't belong to us. I'm going down to the garage tomorrow to get the surgically removed parts and the paperwork.
They had the engine out twice ???? mental.

As already said, on a regular oil journal turbo, a little side/side movement is normal. If there is no evidence of it hitting the outer housing, and no real axial play...I wouldn't be too concerned ( assuming no other obvious damage of course ).
2mm on a small turbo could be a lot, if it really is 2mm..on a much larger unit 2mm wouldn't be so much, it's all relative. But the turbos on these would be fairly small I guess.

A not terrible video showing side/side movement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH5YUw4kOQk

It would be interesting to know if whatever turbos they fitted are OEM units from Audi...or recon from elsewhere ?
Sounds like they've opted for reconditioned units hence no option for you to get old units.

mickyh7

1,090 posts

47 months

Wednesday 11th November 2020
quotequote all
I'm guessing a full refund with N.D.A.
What do the PH collective think/hope the outcome will be?
Top marks to the O.P. for being so cool about it all.
It seems very close to rebounding off the Dealers Fan now.
I wonder if they are following on here?
Audi U.K. must be aware by now!

320d is all you need

1,168 posts

4 months

Wednesday 11th November 2020
quotequote all
stevieturbo said:
They had the engine out twice ???? mental.

As already said, on a regular oil journal turbo, a little side/side movement is normal. If there is no evidence of it hitting the outer housing, and no real axial play...I wouldn't be too concerned ( assuming no other obvious damage of course ).
2mm on a small turbo could be a lot, if it really is 2mm..on a much larger unit 2mm wouldn't be so much, it's all relative. But the turbos on these would be fairly small I guess.

A not terrible video showing side/side movement
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uH5YUw4kOQk

It would be interesting to know if whatever turbos they fitted are OEM units from Audi...or recon from elsewhere ?
Sounds like they've opted for reconditioned units hence no option for you to get old units.
No if Audi replaced the turbos at their cost, the Turbos will get either sent back to Audi HQ or thrown in the skip / taken by staff.

wave_watcher

Original Poster:

32 posts

3 months

Wednesday 11th November 2020
quotequote all
I try to stay calm and reasonable, but I like to give a good argument and hate having my eyes taken out! The engine came out once to have the injectors replaced. The second time it came out was to have the turbos replaced. This interested me as the turbos seem to sit on the top of the engine. I know nothing about engines which is why I have been so grateful for you guys for educating me.

Richard-D

490 posts

25 months

Wednesday 11th November 2020
quotequote all
mickyh7 said:
I'm guessing a full refund with N.D.A.
What do the PH collective think/hope the outcome will be?
Top marks to the O.P. for being so cool about it all.
It seems very close to rebounding off the Dealers Fan now.
I wonder if they are following on here?
Audi U.K. must be aware by now!
I'm guessing the car will be fixed and the bill will be paid.

wave_watcher

Original Poster:

32 posts

3 months

Wednesday 11th November 2020
quotequote all
The car is fixed and the bill is paid. The door is closed I think.

Richard-D

490 posts

25 months

Wednesday 11th November 2020
quotequote all
wave_watcher said:
I try to stay calm and reasonable, but I like to give a good argument and hate having my eyes taken out! The engine came out once to have the injectors replaced. The second time it came out was to have the turbos replaced. This interested me as the turbos seem to sit on the top of the engine. I know nothing about engines which is why I have been so grateful for you guys for educating me.
I haven't worked on one of these engines (have removed and rebuilt a lot of engines though) but looking at pictures I think your assessment is correct. I can't see any reason why you'd remove the engine to replace them.

mickyh7

1,090 posts

47 months

Thursday 12th November 2020
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Surely the cost of the Injectors will be refunded?
Interesting thread.

Skyrocket21

59 posts

3 months

Thursday 12th November 2020
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Obviously this is like throwing a dart in the dark, I found this video interesting, (https://youtu.be/wwonkxa__Nw?t=208) it's on a C7 RS6, basically the same engine. In the video the symptons are the engine won't start. The mechanic goes back to basics, finds there is fuel but no ignition, there is also no fault codes. They find that the coil packs are linked together and a faulty earth is causing the problem. The video goes on to show some fuel injectors being bench tested with one having a faulty spray pattern. So without being an expert, it seems that your initial problem could have been something as simple as a faulty earth, without the mechanics doing these basic checks, it would be impossible to know etc.

wave_watcher

Original Poster:

32 posts

3 months

Thursday 12th November 2020
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Wow.... that is very interesting. Thanks for sharing.

mickyh7

1,090 posts

47 months

Thursday 12th November 2020
quotequote all
wave_watcher said:
The car is fixed and the bill is paid. The door is closed I think.
I hope not. The bill for the Injectors alone runs into 1000's.
I honestly think Damage Limitation will kick in as long as you keep asking questions.
This is not your normal repair bill. It's a huge amount of money.

wave_watcher

Original Poster:

32 posts

3 months

Thursday 12th November 2020
quotequote all
Well, maybe I’m stupid for paying £6k. Difficult to imagine any refund coming our way in the event the fuel injectors are tested and found to be ok.... 😔

mickyh7

1,090 posts

47 months

Thursday 12th November 2020
quotequote all
wave_watcher said:
Well, maybe I’m stupid for paying £6k. Difficult to imagine any refund coming our way in the event the fuel injectors are tested and found to be ok.... ??
Not stupid at all.
I honestly hope you get a chunk of money back.
If not all of it.
What's happened is not right.