?????SUPER CHARGER + TURBO?????

[hiens1]

I read somewhere that (I think it was VW) was working on an engine with both a turbo and a supercharger to even out power and gas mileage. Any info on that?

[pugwash4x4]

it's called the twincharger and it's been stuck in a golf (maybe others too) and is based on a 1.4, more info here http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/050923/36/1y

[hiens1]

Thanks m8. Wonder if it is hard to do on your own.

[LewisK]

It can be done with a little effort and calcuation - it's commonly referred to as 'compound charging'.

The 1985 Lancia Delta S4 was compound charged, with both a turbocharger and a blower (supercharger).

An internet site said:

Turbocharger is generally regarded as the most efficient means of forced induction, but it requires higher rev (hence a lot of exhaust gas) to operate. The result is poor low-speed power and the presense of turbo lag. On the contrary, supercharger performs strongly and instantly right from idle, but it is rahter inefficient in high rpm. For a rally car, a flat torque curve over a wide range of rpm is always very crucial, since rally car has to brake to very slow in tight corners and then accelerate to near top speed in 10 seconds. Therefore Lancia spent a lot money with Abarth to develop a system combining both turbocharger and supercharger to get a perfect output. It employed twin intercoolers, one for the turbo and one for the supercharger. The supercharger worked at low speed. Once the turbo cut in, a bypass valve relieved the pressure from the supercharger so that energy efficiency was be lifted.

A few other companies have tried it since IIRC, quite a few dragsters & high-end custom machines out there running compound charged systems too


One of the members on our other forum is building a compound charged Hillman Imp - oddly enough, that's two that are currently being worked on!

Edited by LewisK on Sunday 10th December 12:49

[JonRB]

I seem to recall running a Nissan Micra super-turbo in one of the Gran Turismo games. Had it tuned to the max and it was quite a giant-killer.

Turns out it was a real car - the Nissan March superturbo of 1989.

[Xaero]

The Nissan March (micra) super-turbo was a 1litre engine (might have been 660cc) with 100bhp I think, there is a couple in the UK, weird looking things, but a bit overestimated due to the twin charging, it doesn't get any more power then a single turbo charged engine of similar capacity, just better power delivery I guess.

[hiens1]

MMM....... Sounds fun! Thanks M8's

[mattyboy101]

A friends car..........




Compound charged 1.9 CVH with a T3 turbo, M62 supercharger & direct port nitrous.

[chuntington101]

diesels often run compound boost but with tweo sets of turbos. one monster one and a smaller one. they often run over 200psi of boost presure!!!!

saw one guy sat on the line for well over 5 seconds at full revs trying to get the turbo(s) spooled! supposidly it takes ages to get any heat in them cos of the lower comp. ratio!

thanks Chris.

[hazzaboy69]

Yeah the golf TSI or GT as I think it is now know is a 1.4 with a turbo and a supercharger. Ive been in one and they are great for a 1.4, loads of low down torque due to the supercharger and then when the revs build up the ecu switches over to the turbo for the higher revving. Unlike the GTI which is a turbo the power is much more useable as the powerband is so much wider meaning that you dont need to change gear as much to make good progress.

[mave]

chuntington101 said:

diesels often run compound boost but with tweo sets of turbos. one monster one and a smaller one. they often run over 200psi of boost presure!!!!

saw one guy sat on the line for well over 5 seconds at full revs trying to get the turbo(s) spooled! supposidly it takes ages to get any heat in them cos of the lower comp. ratio!

thanks Chris.

Really? 13 bar of boost? Are they running sequentially or in parallel? Got any details of the compressor wheels?

[Pigeon]

Don't have any details myself but googling for "tractor pulling" should find something useful. And probably some impressive photographs.

[chuntington101]

mave said:

chuntington101 said:

diesels often run compound boost but with tweo sets of turbos. one monster one and a smaller one. they often run over 200psi of boost presure!!!!

saw one guy sat on the line for well over 5 seconds at full revs trying to get the turbo(s) spooled! supposidly it takes ages to get any heat in them cos of the lower comp. ratio!

thanks Chris.

Really? 13 bar of boost? Are they running sequentially or in parallel? Got any details of the compressor wheels?

have a look on LS1tech.com under the forced induction section. do a search if you cant find anything. there was a thread on there about compund turbocharging and it kinda got taken over by talk of tractor pulling! hehe.

they run series turbos. so the little one has presure fed from the big one. the big one has to shift the air and the little one really ramps up the presure! its comon in industry when you need really high presures. what you have to remeber though is the BIG unit has to have the flow potentical to meet the power goals you need! other wise it will be the restriction. its a very complicated art.

and yes i have heard figures of 250psi for the diesel guys and over 100psi form the methanol guys!!

thanks CHris.

[hiens1]

Hmmm.... sounds fun. thinking of doing it to a Chevy LS7. That would be interesting.

[stevieturbo]

Ive never heard of 200psi...but 100+ for sure.

they run them sequentially, in order to achieve the high boost levels.

A little like this It ran 11.09s in Malta the other weekend, fastest truck in Europe.

Edited by stevieturbo on Monday 18th December 18:20

Edited by stevieturbo on Monday 18th December 18:21

[chuntington101]

hiens1 said:

Hmmm.... sounds fun. thinking of doing it to a Chevy LS7. That would be interesting.

erm dont think the LS7 would last too long! but the new GMPP block or the Warhawk block might! lol

craffty has posted some very intresting compound boost stuff on the LS1tech that i will try and get a link for later. on it is an OZy company that used a roots blower and a centrifugal blower together on one of their manarnos. the intall is sooo clean looks as if it should have allways beed that way. also they made 620bhp to the rear wheals with AMAZING drivablity. also there is no need for any btpass vavles or anything. all they did was modify the centrifugals blades to allow more air past whne the roots blower was doing the work.

will try and get the like later.

now this would be great with the STS rear mounted turbo system on a manarno! run a T76GTS (or one of the new GT wheels) with a ball bearing core for the top end and the roots for lowewr down. you could use a stock CC ls1 and run say 8.0-1 comp ratio as the blower will handle the bottom end work. then stick the biggest intercooler on there you can and a nice big rad for the roots blower.

or you could go for a F1R procharger! is that what you run steve???

thanks Chris.

[Mave]

chuntington101 said:

mave said:

chuntington101 said:

diesels often run compound boost but with tweo sets of turbos. one monster one and a smaller one. they often run over 200psi of boost presure!!!!

saw one guy sat on the line for well over 5 seconds at full revs trying to get the turbo(s) spooled! supposidly it takes ages to get any heat in them cos of the lower comp. ratio!

thanks Chris.

Really? 13 bar of boost? Are they running sequentially or in parallel? Got any details of the compressor wheels?

have a look on LS1tech.com under the forced induction section. do a search if you cant find anything. there was a thread on there about compund turbocharging and it kinda got taken over by talk of tractor pulling! hehe.

they run series turbos. so the little one has presure fed from the big one. the big one has to shift the air and the little one really ramps up the presure! its comon in industry when you need really high presures. what you have to remeber though is the BIG unit has to have the flow potentical to meet the power goals you need! other wise it will be the restriction. its a very complicated art.

and yes i have heard figures of 250psi for the diesel guys and over 100psi form the methanol guys!!

thanks CHris.

Thanks Chris, good link. It was the very issue of needing a pair of series turbos matched to each other that made me surprised that people were doing it, looks like there's lots of good knowledge on that forum

[chuntington101]

Mave said:

Thanks Chris, good link. It was the very issue of needing a pair of series turbos matched to each other that made me surprised that people were doing it, looks like there's lots of good knowledge on that forum

there is mate! there are a few people that distribute turbos so they know what they are talking about. and there is allways someone thats had some experience with what your talking about.

Chris.

[chuntington101]

here is that link.

www.ls1tech.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6083172#post6083172

Chris.

[stevieturbo]

Mines a Vortech....

And seriously, why would you bother with the hassle of turbos and superchargers, when a decent twin screw will more or less offer the best of both worlds.

And dropping the CR to 8.0:1 would be even dafter. Unless you are peeing in the fuel tank.