Ford 4 pot engine experts..... Sump bolt patterns
Discussion
Right, in the 70's, people used to conversions so that you could bolt a Kent Crossflow or a BDA to a modified mini gearbox. I have always liked the idea and there is one on ebay. I am quite tempted to sod the A Series rebuild and go for this. The snag is that they were a tad heavy and I was wondering what other Ford sump patterns fit. Or failing that, what other heads go on a kent block. I don't have a problem adapting things to fit within sensible expectations. An alloy head like a Zetec would be a better idea weight wise.
So:-
1. What engines share the sump bolt pattern with the Kent
2. What lighter heads are available? (lotus, NOT BDA, zetec, anything else?)
Quite a good idea since I've got a hot 711 kent bottom end sat in the garage
So:-
1. What engines share the sump bolt pattern with the Kent
2. What lighter heads are available? (lotus, NOT BDA, zetec, anything else?)
Quite a good idea since I've got a hot 711 kent bottom end sat in the garage
Don't know much about the bolt patterns, but......
I've heard of the conversion and I reckon it would be quite nice in a mini, although not as easy as a k series or Suzuki swift engine.
I had a lotus twin cam in my elan and the engine was glorious, if you could get that head on your engine it should fly!
I've heard of the conversion and I reckon it would be quite nice in a mini, although not as easy as a k series or Suzuki swift engine.
I had a lotus twin cam in my elan and the engine was glorious, if you could get that head on your engine it should fly!
A long time ago, I went mental having missed one in mini magazine complete with SC gears for £800. They are usually cheap but sell quickly. £450 for the casing is quite steep. I put an advert for the parts in mini magazine ages ago. I had some guy want to sell me one with a 1300 BDA engine on it for £10000. I have some spare cash and it was my intention to put the blower engine back in the mini, perhaps with a BMW head on it. Either way, something silly is going to happen to it.
If you lose the mini gearbox, it isn't really a mini Plus a ford conversion is period.
The roundnose bonnet has to be cut for the carbs (which isn't a snag), I think I may need a bonnet bulge for a crossflow head but a TC head would probably make more sense. I'm going to chuck a bid down and if I get it, I'll add it to my pile of bits in the shed that I'll take forever to do anything with.
We shall see what happens. The BMW 16v conversion is about £900 for bits, excluding bottom end mods and gearbox which is about another £1K
I'll see what happens if/when I get it.
Either way, the car is off the road until one of the above is applied to it.
If you lose the mini gearbox, it isn't really a mini
Plus a ford conversion is period. The roundnose bonnet has to be cut for the carbs (which isn't a snag), I think I may need a bonnet bulge for a crossflow head but a TC head would probably make more sense. I'm going to chuck a bid down and if I get it, I'll add it to my pile of bits in the shed that I'll take forever to do anything with.
We shall see what happens. The BMW 16v conversion is about £900 for bits, excluding bottom end mods and gearbox which is about another £1K
I'll see what happens if/when I get it.
Either way, the car is off the road until one of the above is applied to it.
beleive me you dont need a twin cam head to make a x/flow 711m engine fly,just lots of money,with the right light weight pistons,cam & valve sizes & correct fly these motors scream,i had a 1700 with all the above and that thing revved like a sixteen valve t/cam once over 3.5k all the way to 8k,155bhp and yes it cost a bloody fortune,shame about the dick who purchased my car with said motor, he dident have a clue.
love machine said:
My mate has one in his old TVR Vixen which is a pokey machine. I'm not really after spending a stupid amount of money, I'll do the machining work myself on the guts. Also got a pair of 45's in the garage..... rebuilt ones 
those carbs will be just right for the type of spec your after,no disrespect if you dont want to spend fortunes why are you looking into the ford twin cam they cost a mint to build properly,i dont think the gains are worth while,and the motor is finicky,you should maybe consider something more modern ford(zetec maybe/Cvh)
Assuming I get it, I will throw the crossflow back together and bung it straight on, fit a decent final drive and just whack it in there and hack a fibreglass bonnet about to cover it.
Actually jigging it to fit nicely under the standard bonnet will be overkill. I'll just take my nice original bonnet off and stack it somewhere. Not sure how far the carbs will stick out. I also assume a Zetec is too tall for the job. I'll try it and see if I like it
Cheers for your input.
TC as in Lotus head, not BDA.
Actually jigging it to fit nicely under the standard bonnet will be overkill. I'll just take my nice original bonnet off and stack it somewhere. Not sure how far the carbs will stick out. I also assume a Zetec is too tall for the job. I'll try it and see if I like it
Cheers for your input.
TC as in Lotus head, not BDA.
Edited by Love Machine on Saturday 10th February 18:08
that daddy said:
believe me you dont need a twin cam head to make a x/flow 711m engine fly,just lots of money,with the right light weight pistons,cam & valve sizes & correct fly these motors scream,i had a 1700 with all the above and that thing revved like a sixteen valve t/cam once over 3.5k all the way to 8k,155bhp and yes it cost a bloody fortune....
Not even that expensive (...though I guess everything is relative). The Crossflow in my Sylva is to this sort of spec. (approx. 155bhp). As That Daddy says, Kent 254 cam, ported, big-valve head, Lotus pistons, lightened and balanced, twin Weber carbs. I'm guessing it would probably cost about £3,500 to build these days, but second-hand it would only be worth maybe £1,250. The potential problem is the powerband. Like That Daddy says, it will pull like mad from 3.5K to 8K (mine is rev. limited to 7,800 to err on the side of caution), but much below 3.5K and it really isn't interested. You've got to slip the clutch in 1st and feed in the throttle gently, or it just spits and stutters. Mapped ignition/throttle body fuel injection would doubtless sort it, but would cost a packet.
By comparison, the relatively mildly tuned Big Valve Lotus Twin Cam in my Elan is maybe 10bhp down on the Crossflow (say 145bhp), but is really quite tractable - to the point that I find it torquier at low revs than the 1.8K series in the Elises I've owned.
...having said all which, wouldn't it make more sense to go for one of the established Honda VTEC or Vauxhall Twin Cam conversions? Much more straightforward, and you get a decent 5 or 6 speed gearbox thrown in?
Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 10th February 19:08
Sam_68 said:
that daddy said:
believe me you dont need a twin cam head to make a x/flow 711m engine fly,just lots of money,with the right light weight pistons,cam & valve sizes & correct fly these motors scream,i had a 1700 with all the above and that thing revved like a sixteen valve t/cam once over 3.5k all the way to 8k,155bhp and yes it cost a bloody fortune....
Not even that expensive (...though I guess everything is relative). The Crossflow in my Sylva is to this sort of spec. (approx. 155bhp). As That Daddy says, Kent 254 cam, ported, big-valve head, Lotus pistons, lightened and balanced, twin Weber carbs. I'm guessing it would probably cost about £3,500 to build these days, but second-hand it would only be worth maybe £1,250. The potential problem is the powerband. Like That Daddy says, it will pull like mad from 3.5K to 8K (mine is rev. limited to 7,800 to err on the side of caution), but much below 3.5K and it really isn't interested. You've got to slip the clutch in 1st and feed in the throttle gently, or it just spits and stutters. Mapped ignition/throttle body fuel injection would doubtless sort it, but would cost a packet.
By comparison, the relatively mildly tuned Big Valve Lotus Twin Cam in my Elan is maybe 10bhp down on the Crossflow (say 145bhp), but is really quite tractable - to the point that I find it torquier at low revs than the 1.8K series in the Elises I've owned.
...having said all which, wouldn't it make more sense to go for one of the established Honda VTEC or Vauxhall Twin Cam conversions? Much more straightforward, and you get a decent 5 or 6 speed gearbox thrown in?
Edited by Sam_68 on Saturday 10th February 19:08
They are quite problematic and get VERY pricey tricky to do properly. It's a 66 running 10" wheels and I'd like it to look like it could would not attract too much attention at a 60's race track. Hole in the bonnet with stuff stuck out of was par for the course. I don't like the idea of having 1 driveshaft which is about 4ft long and one which is about 4", Crossflow stuff is more expensive than A Series.
The engine which is in there makes first and second gears a waste of time, if I could have more power and a taller FD, it would accellerate the same without me needing to change gear twice.
I'll leave the detail and see if I actually get it, otherwise it's back to the BMW idea.
Don't go thinking the lotus heads are cheap mate, they are an outstanding head designed by utter genius's, you may get a stromberg head cheapish, and from there fit bike carbs, but webber heads go for big money, also a lot are porous, so take care.
PM me if you need any help I still have some good contacts.
PM me if you need any help I still have some good contacts.
wildoliver said:
...you may get a stromberg head cheapish, and from there fit bike carbs, but weber heads go for big money...
Bear in mind that the Stromberg heads have paired inlet runners which limit efficiency. Twin Cam specialist will tell you that the breathing of the Stromberg engine is such that you are wasting your time trying to tune it much above 130bhp.
If you want to be scared off the Twin Cam idea, get hold of the QED catalogue, which includes prices for cylinder heads!
The Americans have worked out ways of machining off the inlet runners so that a manifold can be fitted for twin Webers (on account of all US market cars having originally been fitted with emissions-spec. Strombergs), but, again, it's not cheap or simple.
If bonnet clearance is an issue, I'd have thought that it would be further ammunition in favour of a tuned Crossflow, since the Crossflow is lower than the Twin Cam (being a pushrod head). Doesn't the Lotus Twin Cam require a Clubman front end to fit properly?
Sam_68 said:
wildoliver said:
...you may get a stromberg head cheapish, and from there fit bike carbs, but weber heads go for big money...
Bear in mind that the Stromberg heads have paired inlet runners which limit efficiency. Twin Cam specialist will tell you that the breathing of the Stromberg engine is such that you are wasting your time trying to tune it much above 130bhp.
If bonnet clearance is an issue, I'd have thought that it would be further ammunition in favour of a tuned Crossflow, since the Crossflow is lower than the Twin Cam (being a pushrod head). Doesn't the Lotus Twin Cam require a Clubman front end to fit properly?
Yep thats why they are cheaper, then again 130BHP in a mini is fun!
I can't see the entire lot fitting under a standard mini bonnet profile either though.
Well, I made an offer for it. Bearing in mind the box will have been cained, it could be scrap. If this one doesn't come through, I'll source another one complete.
I've got to do it now.
I knew a bloke who wanted £300 for a lotus 711 kent engine, which needed stripping/rebuilding. I met a bloke on a building site who used to rally escorts and had 3 BDA engines from RS1600's from when he slung pinto engines in them. As they were seized, he took them down the dump!!!!!!
For £450, I could probably be arsed to fabricate one myself.
I've got to do it now.
I knew a bloke who wanted £300 for a lotus 711 kent engine, which needed stripping/rebuilding. I met a bloke on a building site who used to rally escorts and had 3 BDA engines from RS1600's from when he slung pinto engines in them. As they were seized, he took them down the dump!!!!!!
For £450, I could probably be arsed to fabricate one myself.
Edited by love machine on Sunday 11th February 16:22
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