Midget - Alternative engine/gearbox
Discussion
In the most recent issue of PPC there was an MG Midget in Dave Walker's regular article. It had earlier Sprite body panels and a Clio 172 motor on bike throttle bodies. It made about 190bhp with standard internals. Does anyone know where I might find more info on this vehicle. In particular I'm interested in how easy it was to get the engine to mate with the type 9 gearbox, and how much the body needed altering.
My Dad is currently in the middle of a bare metal restoration of a 1500 Midget and structurally it is almost complete. I will be helping with the restoration of the mechanicals and suspension. We are considering not using the original engine because they are, to put it bluntly, a bit rubbish. We don't want to go for the usual K-series conversion because I get the impression that they can be a bit unreliable and expensive to tune. Ideally I'd like something gives out decent power without too many mods.
There are a number of Clio 172 motors on ebay. An easier option could be Ford Zetec or Duratec which I guess would go straight onto a type 9 'box
We are both complete novices as far as engine/gearbox swaps are concerned. Can anyone suggests a good source of information, I'm particularly interested in which engines go with which gearboxes and the intricacies of converting these engines to either carbs or bike throttle bodies.
I'm also thinking about a 4-link and panhard rod for the rear axle, but that is probably best left for another day!
Also, if you got any other good ideas for our project, I'm always on te look out for inspiration.
My Dad is currently in the middle of a bare metal restoration of a 1500 Midget and structurally it is almost complete. I will be helping with the restoration of the mechanicals and suspension. We are considering not using the original engine because they are, to put it bluntly, a bit rubbish. We don't want to go for the usual K-series conversion because I get the impression that they can be a bit unreliable and expensive to tune. Ideally I'd like something gives out decent power without too many mods.
There are a number of Clio 172 motors on ebay. An easier option could be Ford Zetec or Duratec which I guess would go straight onto a type 9 'box
We are both complete novices as far as engine/gearbox swaps are concerned. Can anyone suggests a good source of information, I'm particularly interested in which engines go with which gearboxes and the intricacies of converting these engines to either carbs or bike throttle bodies.
I'm also thinking about a 4-link and panhard rod for the rear axle, but that is probably best left for another day!
Also, if you got any other good ideas for our project, I'm always on te look out for inspiration.
Frankly a bit rubbish?
Obviously yet someone else who has spoken to a bloke down the pub who's mate once read a car magazine saying the 1500 engine is pants, 1500's tuned properley are very rapid engines, and extremely robust. Coupled to the fact its so easy to fit overdrive, they are a smashing choice.
There are lots of engine options, some better than others, but by the sounds of the way your going to take the midge you would be better off selling it as a well retored midget and buying a kit car to mess about with, because a kseries or duratec engined midge with different rear suspension isn't a midget anymore.
Obviously yet someone else who has spoken to a bloke down the pub who's mate once read a car magazine saying the 1500 engine is pants, 1500's tuned properley are very rapid engines, and extremely robust. Coupled to the fact its so easy to fit overdrive, they are a smashing choice.
There are lots of engine options, some better than others, but by the sounds of the way your going to take the midge you would be better off selling it as a well retored midget and buying a kit car to mess about with, because a kseries or duratec engined midge with different rear suspension isn't a midget anymore.
Have you discounted the Rover K-series? Well established conversion - you can get all the parts and expertise you need off-the-shelf from Frontline Midgets, and K-series are basically worth nothing these days, provided you're willing to deal with the remains of the crappy old Rover that usually comes attached to them!
Failing that, I did notice that the cover article on this month's MG enthusiast was for a V8 engined 4WD Midget, if you fancy a bit more of a challenge!
Failing that, I did notice that the cover article on this month's MG enthusiast was for a V8 engined 4WD Midget, if you fancy a bit more of a challenge!
Sam_68 said:
K-series are basically worth nothing these days, provided you're willing to deal with the remains of the crappy old Rover that usually comes attached to them!
Only problem's the engines crappy aswell, talking from experience of 4 different cars with different engines all having suffered from HGF probs.
annodomini2 said:
Sam_68 said:
K-series are basically worth nothing these days, provided you're willing to deal with the remains of the crappy old Rover that usually comes attached to them!
Only problem's the engines crappy aswell, talking from experience of 4 different cars with different engines all having suffered from HGF probs.
Must be the way you look after them!
Whilst the evidence suggests that there is, indeed, a HGF problem with the K-series, I've done about 35,000 miles in a pair of Elises (one of them a tuned Sport 160) with no problems at all!
In any case:
a) The Triumph 1500 engine isn't noted for its reliability, either.
b) To anyone with the skills and ability to be undertaking this sort of conversion, HGF is merely a minor inconvenience.
c) There are measures you can take when building the engine prior to its installation in the car that would reduce the risk of HGF.
There are a lof of engines you could fit in if you are prepared to engineer things and attack bits of the body to mount them etc.
I have comepeted against a lot of k-series and in all honesty they are pretty reliable - like most things you need to know what you are doing and maintain them pretty well. Frontline have done some fantastic conversions - they could tell you about tunability and long term reliability.
I'm afraid I've stuck with the a-series - a real challenge to see if we can squeeze anymore out of the car. Rebuild the engine every year.
There is a midget with a rover v8 and five speed box - I have an article with contact details on if you want a copy. But you need to play around with the body to accomodate the engine
I have comepeted against a lot of k-series and in all honesty they are pretty reliable - like most things you need to know what you are doing and maintain them pretty well. Frontline have done some fantastic conversions - they could tell you about tunability and long term reliability.
I'm afraid I've stuck with the a-series - a real challenge to see if we can squeeze anymore out of the car. Rebuild the engine every year.
There is a midget with a rover v8 and five speed box - I have an article with contact details on if you want a copy. But you need to play around with the body to accomodate the engine
If you're really dead set against the K-Series, then two other small lightweight 4 pots you might consider are Toyota's 4AGE from the Mk1 MR2 and Ford's latest Sigma engine. Although both originally transverse fit, the kit car industry has used both inline so the bits are available.
As for the Zetec and Duratec mentioned in the OP, Zetec uses 'traditional' Ford bellhousing pattern so will take bellhousing and Type-9 from Sierra. Duratec is different and needs special bellhousing, though again the bits are available.
Alternatively, how about the engine and box from an MX-5? Rear wheel drive, very reliable, superb 5-speed gearbox, supercharger kits available...
As for the Zetec and Duratec mentioned in the OP, Zetec uses 'traditional' Ford bellhousing pattern so will take bellhousing and Type-9 from Sierra. Duratec is different and needs special bellhousing, though again the bits are available.
Alternatively, how about the engine and box from an MX-5? Rear wheel drive, very reliable, superb 5-speed gearbox, supercharger kits available...
wildoliver said:
Frankly a bit rubbish?
Obviously yet someone else who has spoken to a bloke down the pub who's mate once read a car magazine saying the 1500 engine is pants, 1500's tuned properley are very rapid engines, and extremely robust. Coupled to the fact its so easy to fit overdrive, they are a smashing choice.
There are lots of engine options, some better than others, but by the sounds of the way your going to take the midge you would be better off selling it as a well retored midget and buying a kit car to mess about with, because a kseries or duratec engined midge with different rear suspension isn't a midget anymore.
Obviously yet someone else who has spoken to a bloke down the pub who's mate once read a car magazine saying the 1500 engine is pants, 1500's tuned properley are very rapid engines, and extremely robust. Coupled to the fact its so easy to fit overdrive, they are a smashing choice.
There are lots of engine options, some better than others, but by the sounds of the way your going to take the midge you would be better off selling it as a well retored midget and buying a kit car to mess about with, because a kseries or duratec engined midge with different rear suspension isn't a midget anymore.
I stand corrected if I've gotted this wrong. Every day's a school day. I would like to add though, that it's more than just "the bloke down the pub" that has given me this impression. Many a publication over the years has indicated this engine is inferior to other comparable units, I seem to recall this is most often attributed to the 3 bearing crank.
I am open to considering any options at the moment. Is it possible to get equal or better performance to an equivelently tuned 1275 A-series? If the advantages are not significant I would likely prefer to use a tuned A-series purely due to the ease of getting parts. The thinking behind converting to a modern engine is that we could a lot more power with no messing about with expensive engine internals. We both know a heap more about fabrication than we do engine tuning.
I know the purist will never agree, and I understand that point of view, but we want to make this car into something we would both love to drive and hence want to get on the road. The project had lost a bit of impetus over the years, a lot of this down to the fact that we both knew we wouldn't want to keep if it was a standard midget, if indeed it ever got finished.
Thanks for all the comments regarding the K-series. My OP implied I had ruled this out, which is not really the case. It was our first choice until I realised people were putting other (perhaps more robust) things in. The Clio motor caught my eye mainly because of the high output the owner had achieved with few mods. I suppose what I really want is to compare installing a K with other modern options.
grahambell - I was under the impression that the Sigma was part of the Zetec family. Is this correct? Is it a straight fit to a Type 9? I like the idea of this engine because it seems to be superceding the k-series as the popular choice for kits. I would imagine the toyota MR2 motor is scarce in good condition, does it go with a Starlet 'box?
grahambell - I was under the impression that the Sigma was part of the Zetec family. Is this correct? Is it a straight fit to a Type 9? I like the idea of this engine because it seems to be superceding the k-series as the popular choice for kits. I would imagine the toyota MR2 motor is scarce in good condition, does it go with a Starlet 'box?
The Duratec then. Great engine - tunable - and kits readily avaliable. www.mountuneonline.com/searchresult.aspx?categoryid=104 - that's the US website I can't seem to get the UK bit working right now but I know they have had more than 220bhp from the engine. (email me if you want more info)
We looked at putting one in a midget a while back and looked like we could make it work but lack of workshop space means haven't got round to it
We looked at putting one in a midget a while back and looked like we could make it work but lack of workshop space means haven't got round to it
bluest2 said:
wildoliver said:
Frankly a bit rubbish?
Obviously yet someone else who has spoken to a bloke down the pub who's mate once read a car magazine saying the 1500 engine is pants, 1500's tuned properley are very rapid engines, and extremely robust. Coupled to the fact its so easy to fit overdrive, they are a smashing choice.
There are lots of engine options, some better than others, but by the sounds of the way your going to take the midge you would be better off selling it as a well retored midget and buying a kit car to mess about with, because a kseries or duratec engined midge with different rear suspension isn't a midget anymore.
Obviously yet someone else who has spoken to a bloke down the pub who's mate once read a car magazine saying the 1500 engine is pants, 1500's tuned properley are very rapid engines, and extremely robust. Coupled to the fact its so easy to fit overdrive, they are a smashing choice.
There are lots of engine options, some better than others, but by the sounds of the way your going to take the midge you would be better off selling it as a well retored midget and buying a kit car to mess about with, because a kseries or duratec engined midge with different rear suspension isn't a midget anymore.
I stand corrected if I've gotted this wrong. Every day's a school day. I would like to add though, that it's more than just "the bloke down the pub" that has given me this impression. Many a publication over the years has indicated this engine is inferior to other comparable units, I seem to recall this is most often attributed to the 3 bearing crank.
I am open to considering any options at the moment. Is it possible to get equal or better performance to an equivelently tuned 1275 A-series? If the advantages are not significant I would likely prefer to use a tuned A-series purely due to the ease of getting parts. The thinking behind converting to a modern engine is that we could a lot more power with no messing about with expensive engine internals. We both know a heap more about fabrication than we do engine tuning.
I know the purist will never agree, and I understand that point of view, but we want to make this car into something we would both love to drive and hence want to get on the road. The project had lost a bit of impetus over the years, a lot of this down to the fact that we both knew we wouldn't want to keep if it was a standard midget, if indeed it ever got finished.
Well firstly I think you will find the a-series is also 3 bearing, likewise most of the hysteria surrounding this engine was levelled at the midget, strange that the exact same engine was fitted to a few triumph models without any issues, as for tuning parts it is true there are more parts available for a series but that doesn't mean there are a shortage for the triumph lump, if you get a nice engine built by a good builder such as oselli (like mine) then they are a lovely smooth revvy unit with bags of torque, and breath substantially better than a 5 port a-series.
I really seriously urge you to consider the 1500 on a level playing field, they have a lot of benefits.
1) You already have one so the car can go straight on the road.
2) It fits straight in with no fabrication work.
3) It is easily tuneable to 110-115 BHP. Enough to have fun in a Midget.
4) If you ever do need to source spares/replacement parts its easy.
5) Originality and value of the car are preserved.
If after living with a hot 1500 for a while you decide it isn't for you then sell it on and buy a k series or whatever else, you will easily get your money back as the triumph lads always want them.
Like I say I have a rapid one fitted to my midget and it is excellent fun and extremely reliable, I think it is far more fun off the mark than my 911 which has much more than twice the power, and with an LSD and toughened half shafts fitted it powers round easily on the spot even with a 3.7 diff fitted.
Back in the 80's I had an Mideget 'Atlantis' this was made by Car Preperations in Bedford and had a Ford 1600 X flow engine with a four speed ford box (Changed later by me and a mate to a ford 5 speed). Great fun but it used to break half shafts for a pass time.
Another mate at the same time built a Sprite with a 2000 Fiat twin cam (twin 40 DCOE's) and a five speed box, this was a real fun car, much faster and handled a lot better (Think the Fiat engine and box where much lighter)
If was doing the conversion these days I reckon I'd look at a bike engine, 200bhp out of the box, must be the way to go.
Mark
Another mate at the same time built a Sprite with a 2000 Fiat twin cam (twin 40 DCOE's) and a five speed box, this was a real fun car, much faster and handled a lot better (Think the Fiat engine and box where much lighter)
If was doing the conversion these days I reckon I'd look at a bike engine, 200bhp out of the box, must be the way to go.
Mark
markh said:
If was doing the conversion these days I reckon I'd look at a bike engine, 200bhp out of the box, must be the way to go.
A potential problem with a bike engine would be the gearing. Even with the Ford and Freelander diffs and (relatively) large diameter rear wheels used by the kit car BECs, you can end up with absurdly short gearing (like 110mph flat out at 12,000 revs!). With the Midget's short back axle ratio and small wheels, you could find you're bouncing off the rev limiter at 90mph.
I like the atlantis, and the fiat engine is a lovely transplant unit, was going to make a track car using a 2.0l fiat engine.
Bike engines also a great way to go, is it not possible to mate them to a car gearbox?
Please don't think I am trying to say that you should do your car how I think, or even that the triumph engine is amazng it isn't, what I'm trying to say is weigh the engine up giving it a fair chance, of course standard it has much less power than say a fiat twincam on webbers, but for the work to fit it you can tune the 1500 to a level that is not a long way behind.
Bike engines also a great way to go, is it not possible to mate them to a car gearbox?
Please don't think I am trying to say that you should do your car how I think, or even that the triumph engine is amazng it isn't, what I'm trying to say is weigh the engine up giving it a fair chance, of course standard it has much less power than say a fiat twincam on webbers, but for the work to fit it you can tune the 1500 to a level that is not a long way behind.
richb said:
wildoliver said:
love machine said:
The B series is heavier than a RV8 though. The alloy 8 port heads are cheap though for a B. Probably lose a few KG there.
midgets don't have b series mate
I've never looked in a rubber bumper midget engine bay, I just assumed they had a B series, I stand fully corrected.... I've thought that for about 12 years
What is the name of the triumph engine? Is it the that was in lots of dolomites? Yep its the old triumph stanpart lump that evolved up over the years like the a-series, think it started at 803cc? They just found that it had that last bit of meat left in it to overtake the a-series at a safe 1500cc, was found in spits, heralds, dolly's, etc in various forms and sizes, not a bad little engine really, "can" be weak on the bottom end, but this tends to be more down to poor maintenance than anything else, but it is a fair point that it isn't as abusable as an a-series, it does however have a nice 6 port head as standard, so doesn't flow badly, sadly though it isn't crossflow, but with a well flowed set of 1 1.5" Su's and a flowed manifold and flowed head, a bit of lightening and balancing it's a smashing little engine, very low down torquey anyway but the flowing of the head makes it sing up to high revs very happily, put it this way I'm entering the midget challenge next year with a 1500.
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