Midget - Alternative engine/gearbox
Discussion
wildoliver said:
Yep its the old triumph stanpart lump that evolved up over the years like the a-series, think it started at 803cc? They just found that it had that last bit of meat left in it to overtake the a-series at a safe 1500cc, was found in spits, heralds, dolly's, etc in various forms and sizes, not a bad little engine really, "can" be weak on the bottom end, but this tends to be more down to poor maintenance than anything else, but it is a fair point that it isn't as abusable as an a-series, it does however have a nice 6 port head as standard, so doesn't flow badly, sadly though it isn't crossflow, but with a well flowed set of 1 1.5" Su's and a flowed manifold and flowed head, a bit of lightening and balancing it's a smashing little engine, very low down torquey anyway but the flowing of the head makes it sing up to high revs very happily, put it this way I'm entering the midget challenge next year with a 1500.
You've sparked my interst in this engine now, i still think i'd go for a 5 speed converson though. The one we have is likely to be in very poor shape. It's complete but we've never seen it running. There is also some suspicion that the previous owner attempted to run it with no oil in.
Do many other people race with this engine (midgets or otherwise)? You said Oselli are a good engine builder, anyone else you would recommend for tuning parts such as manifolds, cams etc? I can't find Oselli on the web, just an AM dealer with the same name.
Also while i'm here I might as well ask about carbs. Obviously SU's are the authentic choice but what are relative merits, drawback compared to say a twin choke Webber? I understand the difference in how the two types work, but don't know how this translates to a tuned engine.
Blue give me a bell, for one thing you aren't a million miles away, and there really is far too much advice to give on a post, again 5 speed vs overdrive tricky choice, depends how important "tidy" engineering is to you, I dislike the 5 speeds on the same grounds as kit cars, they just never look or feel factory (I know I'm going to get flamed for that).
I'll email you my no, give me a bell and maybe one day come and have a look at a couple of instalations one day.
Oliver
I'll email you my no, give me a bell and maybe one day come and have a look at a couple of instalations one day.
Oliver
Wildoliver - Enjoyed the chat. I'm now going to put some serious effort into learning about the 1500 before I make a decision. I have to admit, I do like the idea of having the correct engine, if it gives enough power to have fun with.
I'm sure I'll be back on to you with more questions when things stat moving forward.
I'm sure I'll be back on to you with more questions when things stat moving forward.
bluest2 said:
Also while i'm here I might as well ask about carbs. Obviously SU's are the authentic choice but what are relative merits, drawback compared to say a twin choke Webber? I understand the difference in how the two types work, but don't know how this translates to a tuned engine.
To cut it short
Webers give more outright WOT power at the expense of part-throttle economy and tractability, and ease of adjustment; "Webers for track, SUs for road".Pigeon said:
bluest2 said:
Also while i'm here I might as well ask about carbs. Obviously SU's are the authentic choice but what are relative merits, drawback compared to say a twin choke Webber? I understand the difference in how the two types work, but don't know how this translates to a tuned engine.
To cut it short
Webers give more outright WOT power at the expense of part-throttle economy and tractability, and ease of adjustment; "Webers for track, SUs for road".What about going hi-teh and using an ecu and throttle bodies? have used bike ones (reasonably cheap)to good effect
wildoliver said:
Su's have the benefit of being able to set up at home, and IMO on the road give more "usuable" power, on track webber without a doubt, but on the road as mentioned well set up and flowed SU's are more than a match.
Seem to remember my old 1380 Midget ran twin 1 3/4 Su's with open ram pipes at one stage (pre supercharger)
wildoliver said:
Su's have the benefit of being able to set up at home, and IMO on the road give more "usuable" power, on track webber without a doubt, but on the road as mentioned well set up and flowed SU's are more than a match.
Dunno about SU's, but I've had had direct comparison between Stromberg (similar principle to the SU) and Weber carbs on Lotus Twin Cam engines that were identical in (apart from distributor advance to suit the carbs) and the Strombergs are actually a little easier to exploit on the road, because the variable choke can give them better torque at low revs than the Webers when you are using long duration cams. I've been similarly impressed with SU Minis and twin Stromberg Imps... there's a lot to be said for them if you don't need ultimate power for racing, I think.
markh said:
Pigeon said:
bluest2 said:
Also while i'm here I might as well ask about carbs. Obviously SU's are the authentic choice but what are relative merits, drawback compared to say a twin choke Webber? I understand the difference in how the two types work, but don't know how this translates to a tuned engine.
To cut it short
Webers give more outright WOT power at the expense of part-throttle economy and tractability, and ease of adjustment; "Webers for track, SUs for road".What about going hi-teh and using an ecu and throttle bodies? have used bike ones (reasonably cheap)to good effect
I've always fancied a car with throttle bodies and a programmable ECU but ultimately I don't think this car wil be it. I would have to learn everything about ECU's and the looms and stuff from scratch, and at the end i would probably still have to pay someone to set it all up. Plus they ain't cheap to buy.
bluest2 said:
markh said:
Pigeon said:
bluest2 said:
Also while i'm here I might as well ask about carbs. Obviously SU's are the authentic choice but what are relative merits, drawback compared to say a twin choke Webber? I understand the difference in how the two types work, but don't know how this translates to a tuned engine.
To cut it short
Webers give more outright WOT power at the expense of part-throttle economy and tractability, and ease of adjustment; "Webers for track, SUs for road".What about going hi-teh and using an ecu and throttle bodies? have used bike ones (reasonably cheap)to good effect
I've always fancied a car with throttle bodies and a programmable ECU but ultimately I don't think this car wil be it. I would have to learn everything about ECU's and the looms and stuff from scratch, and at the end i would probably still have to pay someone to set it all up. Plus they ain't cheap to buy.
What about a megasquirt these seem cheap enough, bike TB's are cheap as anything, the expensive bit would be the manifold I guess
Dad has a 1275 RWA Midget and a 1500 Triumph engined rubber bumper Midget, and I have to say the Triumph unit is a veritable tractor engine in comparison to the A-Series. It has a nice extra amount of torque at low RPM (needs it with those ridiculously heavy bumpers) but it's rough running and sounds like it's going grenade itself if you try to extract any amount of performance out of it. The A-series by comparison is smoother, much more free-revving unit that actually sounds like it enjoys being thrashed.
If you want more performance I would urge you to consider a modern 16v engine that will be more powerful in standard form, more reliable and more economical than a tuned 1500. If you are not averse to the blue oval consider a Zetec E. This mates up directly to a Type 9 5 speed box, and gives you 130 bhp out of the box for a 2.0L or the higher power spec 1.8 (1.8 can also have 105, or 115bhp). It's been transplanted into so many older cars and kit cars that there are numerous conversion parts available to buy, and the engines themselves are cheap as chips as there are thousands of old Mondeos and Escorts being scrapped.
I don't think think you should discount the K Series though. They do tend to suffer from the dreaded HGF with original plastic dowels on the head etc. but a properly rebuilt unit with the later PRT thermostat will be reliable.
If you want more performance I would urge you to consider a modern 16v engine that will be more powerful in standard form, more reliable and more economical than a tuned 1500. If you are not averse to the blue oval consider a Zetec E. This mates up directly to a Type 9 5 speed box, and gives you 130 bhp out of the box for a 2.0L or the higher power spec 1.8 (1.8 can also have 105, or 115bhp). It's been transplanted into so many older cars and kit cars that there are numerous conversion parts available to buy, and the engines themselves are cheap as chips as there are thousands of old Mondeos and Escorts being scrapped.
I don't think think you should discount the K Series though. They do tend to suffer from the dreaded HGF with original plastic dowels on the head etc. but a properly rebuilt unit with the later PRT thermostat will be reliable.
limegreennutter said:
richb said:
limegreennutter said:
Thought about an S2000 engine, I've seen an MGA with one, very nice indeed.
What's a modern Honda engine in an MGA? 
Why? Edited by richb on Friday 16th February 11:45
I have a Midget 1500, with a lightly tuned original engine still in it.
It's a Peter Burgess built unit, with slightly modified original SU's, 'stage 2' head (8 port not 6?), Moss fast road 89 cam, Janspeed manifold and system, and fully balanced. On the Burgess rolling road it put out 105bhp@wheels after 1000 miles running in. It also has the Frontline front suspension, lowered coil and leaf springs, thicker anti-roll bar, poly/nylon bushes, uprated pads/discs...
As an daily driver, it had done over 40k miles totally trouble free, before taken off the road for other reasons. Well... the engine was trouble free, but even 105bhp with the 3.7 diff was enough to break a couple of halfshafts and a diff! I think an oil cooler is almost essential on 1500 Midgets, along with regular oil changes.
The engine is quite capable of pulling redline in 4th with the top down (approx 108mph in theory) which to me is quite enough in a Midget. My only regret is not fitting a overdrive 'box (froma Spitfire/dolomite) at the same time - a friend had a largely std 1500 with one fitted and it was a nice 'characterful' addition which made motorways far more pleasant. Having said that I often used to do medium-long journeys at significant speed (4-5k revs), often with hood down, without problem.
IMO even at 100bhp you start chasing weakest links through the transmission and suspension (and brakes) and it 1) It gets very expensive 2) May as well start with a kit car instead?
That said, I did buy a shell with a view to putting a 'bike engine in (though finding out the wife was having twins reigned in that idea).
It's a Peter Burgess built unit, with slightly modified original SU's, 'stage 2' head (8 port not 6?), Moss fast road 89 cam, Janspeed manifold and system, and fully balanced. On the Burgess rolling road it put out 105bhp@wheels after 1000 miles running in. It also has the Frontline front suspension, lowered coil and leaf springs, thicker anti-roll bar, poly/nylon bushes, uprated pads/discs...
As an daily driver, it had done over 40k miles totally trouble free, before taken off the road for other reasons. Well... the engine was trouble free, but even 105bhp with the 3.7 diff was enough to break a couple of halfshafts and a diff! I think an oil cooler is almost essential on 1500 Midgets, along with regular oil changes.
The engine is quite capable of pulling redline in 4th with the top down (approx 108mph in theory) which to me is quite enough in a Midget. My only regret is not fitting a overdrive 'box (froma Spitfire/dolomite) at the same time - a friend had a largely std 1500 with one fitted and it was a nice 'characterful' addition which made motorways far more pleasant. Having said that I often used to do medium-long journeys at significant speed (4-5k revs), often with hood down, without problem.
IMO even at 100bhp you start chasing weakest links through the transmission and suspension (and brakes) and it 1) It gets very expensive 2) May as well start with a kit car instead?
That said, I did buy a shell with a view to putting a 'bike engine in (though finding out the wife was having twins reigned in that idea).
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