OIL and Service intervals
Discussion
Can the oil really survive this range?
www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/STAGING/global_assets/downloads/F/Frontiers_magazine_issue_3_Keep_on_running.pdf
Testing with partially stressed oil, which contained some wear debris, produced less wear than testing with clean oil. This finding was unexpected and initially confusing (further inquiry suggested that the result was not so surprising, as many oil chemistries require time and temperature to enhance their effectiveness). Although based on limited data, the finding could be significant, and verification should be pursued. If the finding is verified, the mechanisms should be determined, and ramifications with respect to oil change intervals, filter involvement, and additive packages should be considered. A similar finding for diesel engines could have even greater significance, since the topics of extended oil drain and, in some cases heavy exhaust gas recirculation are of major interest. Although the conditioning run altered the oil, it did not stress or render it unusable (as noted, there is indication that it was tribologically improved). As such, the impact of testing with significantly stressed oil was not measured and remains a future objective.
www.swri.org/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/st
www.synlube.com/nooil.htm
www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/STAGING/global_assets/downloads/F/Frontiers_magazine_issue_3_Keep_on_running.pdf
Testing with partially stressed oil, which contained some wear debris, produced less wear than testing with clean oil. This finding was unexpected and initially confusing (further inquiry suggested that the result was not so surprising, as many oil chemistries require time and temperature to enhance their effectiveness). Although based on limited data, the finding could be significant, and verification should be pursued. If the finding is verified, the mechanisms should be determined, and ramifications with respect to oil change intervals, filter involvement, and additive packages should be considered. A similar finding for diesel engines could have even greater significance, since the topics of extended oil drain and, in some cases heavy exhaust gas recirculation are of major interest. Although the conditioning run altered the oil, it did not stress or render it unusable (as noted, there is indication that it was tribologically improved). As such, the impact of testing with significantly stressed oil was not measured and remains a future objective.
www.swri.org/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/st
www.synlube.com/nooil.htm
Raw cerb,i think that is a good idea you have,you cant beat regular oil and filter changes,as for that extended oil & filter change lark it just looks better on paper for fleet companys (running costs longterm)and lets face it by the time you run into mechanical engine problems its out of warranty, but hey the manafacturer will sell you the parts to rebuild it, or sell you a new car do see where im going,as for that old oil works better than new oil business, thats total crap,clean oil rules.
The 20,000 mile oil change is IMHO utterly stupid and extra utterly stupid on a diesel.
It is a push to get 10,000 miles out of a half decent oil, and most of this is driven because vehicle manufacturers were having people take the car to the dealer for an oil change just to keep a warranty, when you could do the job in your driveway just as well. Servicing cars is NOT difficult, especially these days when everything is sealed for life. It's diagnosing faults and fixing them that's difficult....
In the case of most oils there are two basic problems - wear metals getting into the oil and combustion by-products, and in diesels the soot levels are worse, especially compounded on vehicles with a particulate filter with oil dilution from fuel.
Anyway, assuming you have a car that you want to keep for a very long time, I would change the oil every 5000 miles & fit a new filter every time, then have the dealer change oil at the 20,000 intervals.
It is a push to get 10,000 miles out of a half decent oil, and most of this is driven because vehicle manufacturers were having people take the car to the dealer for an oil change just to keep a warranty, when you could do the job in your driveway just as well. Servicing cars is NOT difficult, especially these days when everything is sealed for life. It's diagnosing faults and fixing them that's difficult....
In the case of most oils there are two basic problems - wear metals getting into the oil and combustion by-products, and in diesels the soot levels are worse, especially compounded on vehicles with a particulate filter with oil dilution from fuel.
Anyway, assuming you have a car that you want to keep for a very long time, I would change the oil every 5000 miles & fit a new filter every time, then have the dealer change oil at the 20,000 intervals.
GavinPearson said:
The 20,000 mile oil change is IMHO utterly stupid and extra utterly stupid on a diesel.
It is a push to get 10,000 miles out of a half decent oil, and most of this is driven because vehicle manufacturers were having people take the car to the dealer for an oil change just to keep a warranty, when you could do the job in your driveway just as well. Servicing cars is NOT difficult, especially these days when everything is sealed for life. It's diagnosing faults and fixing them that's difficult....
In the case of most oils there are two basic problems - wear metals getting into the oil and combustion by-products, and in diesels the soot levels are worse, especially compounded on vehicles with a particulate filter with oil dilution from fuel.
Anyway, assuming you have a car that you want to keep for a very long time, I would change the oil every 5000 miles & fit a new filter every time, then have the dealer change oil at the 20,000 intervals.
It is a push to get 10,000 miles out of a half decent oil, and most of this is driven because vehicle manufacturers were having people take the car to the dealer for an oil change just to keep a warranty, when you could do the job in your driveway just as well. Servicing cars is NOT difficult, especially these days when everything is sealed for life. It's diagnosing faults and fixing them that's difficult....
In the case of most oils there are two basic problems - wear metals getting into the oil and combustion by-products, and in diesels the soot levels are worse, especially compounded on vehicles with a particulate filter with oil dilution from fuel.
Anyway, assuming you have a car that you want to keep for a very long time, I would change the oil every 5000 miles & fit a new filter every time, then have the dealer change oil at the 20,000 intervals.
Gavin you are absolutely bang on the money,makes a change for someone to come along speaking sense rather than pissing on the fire.I share your opinion on this matter totally.
supermono said:
GavinPearson said:
extra utterly stupid on a diesel ... and in diesels the soot levels are worse
I don't necessarily disagree but just because it's black doesn't mean it's lost its film strength. And graphite is a lubricant in its own right.
SM
It's also one of the hardest substances known to mankind.
Couple of articles on oil
www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2945
www.svmgcc.org/tech_tips/oil_is_killing.htm
www.thetruthaboutcars.com/?p=2945
www.svmgcc.org/tech_tips/oil_is_killing.htm
MGBV8 said:
Can the oil really survive this range?
www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/STAGING/global_assets/downloads/F/Frontiers_magazine_issue_3_Keep_on_running.pdf
Testing with partially stressed oil, which contained some wear debris, produced less wear than testing with clean oil. This finding was unexpected and initially confusing (further inquiry suggested that the result was not so surprising, as many oil chemistries require time and temperature to enhance their effectiveness). Although based on limited data, the finding could be significant, and verification should be pursued. If the finding is verified, the mechanisms should be determined, and ramifications with respect to oil change intervals, filter involvement, and additive packages should be considered. A similar finding for diesel engines could have even greater significance, since the topics of extended oil drain and, in some cases heavy exhaust gas recirculation are of major interest. Although the conditioning run altered the oil, it did not stress or render it unusable (as noted, there is indication that it was tribologically improved). As such, the impact of testing with significantly stressed oil was not measured and remains a future objective.
www.swri.org/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/st
www.synlube.com/nooil.htm
www.bp.com/liveassets/bp_internet/globalbp/STAGING/global_assets/downloads/F/Frontiers_magazine_issue_3_Keep_on_running.pdf
Testing with partially stressed oil, which contained some wear debris, produced less wear than testing with clean oil. This finding was unexpected and initially confusing (further inquiry suggested that the result was not so surprising, as many oil chemistries require time and temperature to enhance their effectiveness). Although based on limited data, the finding could be significant, and verification should be pursued. If the finding is verified, the mechanisms should be determined, and ramifications with respect to oil change intervals, filter involvement, and additive packages should be considered. A similar finding for diesel engines could have even greater significance, since the topics of extended oil drain and, in some cases heavy exhaust gas recirculation are of major interest. Although the conditioning run altered the oil, it did not stress or render it unusable (as noted, there is indication that it was tribologically improved). As such, the impact of testing with significantly stressed oil was not measured and remains a future objective.
www.swri.org/3pubs/IRD1999/03912699.htm
http://neptune.spacebears.com/cars/st
www.synlube.com/nooil.htm
if you're interested I've got gallons of "previously enjoyed" oil you can have for free - just come and collect it
MTv Dave said:
supermono said:
GavinPearson said:
extra utterly stupid on a diesel ... and in diesels the soot levels are worse
I don't necessarily disagree but just because it's black doesn't mean it's lost its film strength. And graphite is a lubricant in its own right.
SM
It's also one of the hardest substances known to mankind.
hmmmm. You're thinking of another form of graphite -- diamond. This is graphite poweder here aka soot. I very much doubt that even in a diesel engine there's quite enough temperature and pressure to create diamonds.
SM
Put fully synth in my Hdi at 74k, and after 8k it was using oil, so needed 0.5l over the next 3k to top it up...
Noticed reduced performance, especially transient response and turbo spool speed, and the mpg was getting pretty naff.
Just done a new change with the same oil, mpg has literally shot up and I've been doing lots of high-speed motorway driving, and the engine response is back to like it was before!
So, 11k on fully synth for a derv in my view is too much, and Peugeot say 12k on mine with fully synth. Anyone suggesting 20k on a derv must be mad.
Old problem with the XUD9 derv lumps, semi-synth, book changes were 6k, Pug fitted EGR and extended interval to 12k (no other changes), and then a spate of big-end bearing failures and broken rods. Main cause appeared to be EGR sooting oil combined with longer intervals blocking oil ways.
HOW did Peugeot even start to think it was a good idea? They did the same with the GTi at the same time, changed the interval to yearly or 20k from yearly or 12k! NO engine changes!
It's fleet biased crap. Do an interim at 10k and have a car that lasts till 200k+ in good old Peugeot diesel fashion!
Dave
Noticed reduced performance, especially transient response and turbo spool speed, and the mpg was getting pretty naff.
Just done a new change with the same oil, mpg has literally shot up and I've been doing lots of high-speed motorway driving, and the engine response is back to like it was before!
So, 11k on fully synth for a derv in my view is too much, and Peugeot say 12k on mine with fully synth. Anyone suggesting 20k on a derv must be mad.
Old problem with the XUD9 derv lumps, semi-synth, book changes were 6k, Pug fitted EGR and extended interval to 12k (no other changes), and then a spate of big-end bearing failures and broken rods. Main cause appeared to be EGR sooting oil combined with longer intervals blocking oil ways.
HOW did Peugeot even start to think it was a good idea? They did the same with the GTi at the same time, changed the interval to yearly or 20k from yearly or 12k! NO engine changes!
It's fleet biased crap. Do an interim at 10k and have a car that lasts till 200k+ in good old Peugeot diesel fashion!
Dave
Mr whippy,thats why i disconnect the EGR connection on all XUD pug/cit diesels that come in for service EGR on diesels is crap and soots up the inlet manifold,have you seen how bad the transit 2.5 suffers from this....terrible.i use a citroen with an XUD turbo,and change the oil and filter every 4k without fail,that does not take me long either,never uses oil beetween service currently on 160k,and i know that thing will run & run & run & run.You do not have to use the dearest oil,but you have to keep oil&filter changes regular,you dont need these wonder additives neither.I have seen diesels do 300k plus and i dont need to tell you why,but some people just wont listen,they think there is other ways to gain long engine life,there is not yet.
that daddy said:
Mr whippy,thats why i disconnect the EGR connection on all XUD pug/cit diesels that come in for service EGR on diesels is crap and soots up the inlet manifold,have you seen how bad the transit 2.5 suffers from this....terrible.i use a citroen with an XUD turbo,and change the oil and filter every 4k without fail,that does not take me long either,never uses oil beetween service currently on 160k,and i know that thing will run & run & run & run.You do not have to use the dearest oil,but you have to keep oil&filter changes regular,you dont need these wonder additives neither.I have seen diesels do 300k plus and i dont need to tell you why,but some people just wont listen,they think there is other ways to gain long engine life,there is not yet.
Yep, we get shown pictures of smokers lungs to put us of it, but you should see an EGR intake manifold at 5yrs old! I'd say internal cross sectional area is down by a third, and it's like thick tar treacle crap...
All this emissions stuff is ace in 3yrs/60k warranty period and when doing the testing approval to meet regulations, but when these cars are older I swear they actually *cost* the environment with replacement parts requirements, putting cars off the road to be replaced when they cause catastrophic failures, decreased efficiency etc etc...
Expensive junk!
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
that daddy said:
Mr whippy,thats why i disconnect the EGR connection on all XUD pug/cit diesels that come in for service EGR on diesels is crap and soots up the inlet manifold,have you seen how bad the transit 2.5 suffers from this....terrible.i use a citroen with an XUD turbo,and change the oil and filter every 4k without fail,that does not take me long either,never uses oil beetween service currently on 160k,and i know that thing will run & run & run & run.You do not have to use the dearest oil,but you have to keep oil&filter changes regular,you dont need these wonder additives neither.I have seen diesels do 300k plus and i dont need to tell you why,but some people just wont listen,they think there is other ways to gain long engine life,there is not yet.
Yep, we get shown pictures of smokers lungs to put us of it, but you should see an EGR intake manifold at 5yrs old! I'd say internal cross sectional area is down by a third, and it's like thick tar treacle crap...
All this emissions stuff is ace in 3yrs/60k warranty period and when doing the testing approval to meet regulations, but when these cars are older I swear they actually *cost* the environment with replacement parts requirements, putting cars off the road to be replaced when they cause catastrophic failures, decreased efficiency etc etc...
Expensive junk!
Dave
Totally agree with you on this on.
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