Fellow Turbo nutters, what do you make of this?
Discussion
splatspeed, as far as drag racing in concerend (i know thats not everything but its a good sign as to how fast a car can acelerate) it has been proven that 1000bhp LS engine have gone faster than 3.x ltr Supras have even when they are making more power (1500bhp region).
if you took like for like power out puts then the biger more torquey engine would win (as long as he/she can get the power down!).
this is not a go at the Honda engine by any means, it a fantastic engine (although i dont know why honda stook with the N/A 2.0ltr for the Civic type R cos its going to get beat but the more powerful and more torquey turbo motors out there.).
the gearbox is a great thing and i can tell you steve know enough to beable to fit a T56 into his car! lol
please lets get back onto topic about this now!
Thanks Chris.
if you took like for like power out puts then the biger more torquey engine would win (as long as he/she can get the power down!).
this is not a go at the Honda engine by any means, it a fantastic engine (although i dont know why honda stook with the N/A 2.0ltr for the Civic type R cos its going to get beat but the more powerful and more torquey turbo motors out there.).
the gearbox is a great thing and i can tell you steve know enough to beable to fit a T56 into his car! lol
please lets get back onto topic about this now!
Thanks Chris.
chuntington101 said:
splatspeed, as far as drag racing in concerend (i know thats not everything but its a good sign as to how fast a car can acelerate) it has been proven that 1000bhp LS engine have gone faster than 3.x ltr Supras have even when they are making more power (1500bhp region).
if you took like for like power out puts then the biger more torquey engine would win (as long as he/she can get the power down!).
if you took like for like power out puts then the biger more torquey engine would win (as long as he/she can get the power down!).
Conjecture. Two identical cars geared for the same top speed, one makes 500 bhp @ 5,000 rpm, the other makes 500 bhp @ 10,000 rpm. The second car will have half the torque, but still accelerate as quick. End of.
900T-R said:
chuntington101 said:
splatspeed, as far as drag racing in concerend (i know thats not everything but its a good sign as to how fast a car can acelerate) it has been proven that 1000bhp LS engine have gone faster than 3.x ltr Supras have even when they are making more power (1500bhp region).
if you took like for like power out puts then the biger more torquey engine would win (as long as he/she can get the power down!).
if you took like for like power out puts then the biger more torquey engine would win (as long as he/she can get the power down!).
Conjecture. Two identical cars geared for the same top speed, one makes 500 bhp @ 5,000 rpm, the other makes 500 bhp @ 10,000 rpm. The second car will have half the torque, but still accelerate as quick. End of.
who was talking about peak numbers??????
and if your correct then why dont they use bike engines in cars???????
thanks Chris.
chuntington101 said:
900T-R said:
chuntington101 said:
splatspeed, as far as drag racing in concerend (i know thats not everything but its a good sign as to how fast a car can acelerate) it has been proven that 1000bhp LS engine have gone faster than 3.x ltr Supras have even when they are making more power (1500bhp region).
if you took like for like power out puts then the biger more torquey engine would win (as long as he/she can get the power down!).
if you took like for like power out puts then the biger more torquey engine would win (as long as he/she can get the power down!).
Conjecture. Two identical cars geared for the same top speed, one makes 500 bhp @ 5,000 rpm, the other makes 500 bhp @ 10,000 rpm. The second car will have half the torque, but still accelerate as quick. End of.
who was talking about peak numbers??????
and if your correct then why dont they use bike engines in cars???????
thanks Chris.
they do they are lighter
it is the area under the curve between gearchanges that counts
so if you intergrate the power curve you find the the bigger engines have the flatter curve giving a greater average power thats whey they are faster
splatspeed said:
it is the area under the curve between gearchanges that counts
splatspeed said:
so if you intergrate the power curve you find the the bigger engines have the flatter curve giving a greater average power thats whey they are faster
Not necessarily - in the fictuous example I gave above (which of course was an extremely simplified one) you'd have to 'condense' the power curve in a 2:1 ratio on the rpm scale to properly compare the two - i.e. even if the high, revving, low torque engine doesn't make any useful torque below 3K rpm, it's still on the same plane as the stump puller starting to get serious at 1,500...
There's an article on the Autospeed website that investigated the the correlation between max power, max torque and acceleration (0-60 and 1/4 mile) - it came to the conclusion that predicting acceleration times using max bhp is actually a pretty accurate way of doing it, while predictions using max torque were more often than not way, way off...
Sorry i stopped watching as I lost the will to life half way through, Yawn!
2 words
TURBO LAG!
the time it takes to achieve an increase in pressure in the inlet manifold.
The closer you can get the turbo charger to the head the better.
When you floor that car you have to achieve an increase in pressure along the whole length of the car as well as run oil lines all the way back to the turbos and back to the engine
2 words
TURBO LAG!
the time it takes to achieve an increase in pressure in the inlet manifold.
The closer you can get the turbo charger to the head the better.
When you floor that car you have to achieve an increase in pressure along the whole length of the car as well as run oil lines all the way back to the turbos and back to the engine
900T-R said:
splatspeed said:
it is the area under the curve between gearchanges that counts
splatspeed said:
so if you intergrate the power curve you find the the bigger engines have the flatter curve giving a greater average power thats whey they are faster
Not necessarily - in the fictuous example I gave above (which of course was an extremely simplified one) you'd have to 'condense' the power curve in a 2:1 ratio on the rpm scale to properly compare the two - i.e. even if the high, revving, low torque engine doesn't make any useful torque below 3K rpm, it's still on the same plane as the stump puller starting to get serious at 1,500...
There's an article on the Autospeed website that investigated the the correlation between max power, max torque and acceleration (0-60 and 1/4 mile) - it came to the conclusion that predicting acceleration times using max bhp is actually a pretty accurate way of doing it, while predictions using max torque were more often than not way, way off...
id guess the LS get the jump on the supra in the first couple of secconds and then cant make up for the loss all the high power turbo systems relly on big hugh turbos that need high revs to come on song from what i have seen that initail pull away is where i thiink they will loose out
the tyre static friction should be constant so the bigger engine with the flatter curve should be able to spread the power better the supra is more suitted to using that power in the higher gears
also feeding the power with the bigger engine is a lot easier
having the turbos suddenly dump max power to the wheels can be a handfull
imho
splatspeed said:
stevieturbo said:
splatspeed said:
some one should introduce you to the gearbox
Someone should introduce you to cars that can actually go fast....
ohhh handbags at dawn
so what time does that granada post round a track
Wouldnt know. Ive never had it around a track. It is a road car after all.
900T-R said:
There's an article on the Autospeed website that investigated the the correlation between max power, max torque and acceleration (0-60 and 1/4 mile) - it came to the conclusion that predicting acceleration times using max bhp is actually a pretty accurate way of doing it, while predictions using max torque were more often than not way, way off...
I would disagree in part. 1/4 mile trap speeds can be a very reliable indicator of power, but using ET's can be way off. ET's are so dependant on traction, which can skew such estimations of power, and vica versa..
Trap speeds however dont really change that much, assuming a decent run. They are usually very consistent, even if you get a bad start.
odyssey2200 said:
Sorry i stopped watching as I lost the will to life half way through, Yawn!
2 words
TURBO LAG!
the time it takes to achieve an increase in pressure in the inlet manifold.
The closer you can get the turbo charger to the head the better.
When you floor that car you have to achieve an increase in pressure along the whole length of the car as well as run oil lines all the way back to the turbos and back to the engine
2 words
TURBO LAG!
the time it takes to achieve an increase in pressure in the inlet manifold.
The closer you can get the turbo charger to the head the better.
When you floor that car you have to achieve an increase in pressure along the whole length of the car as well as run oil lines all the way back to the turbos and back to the engine
When you have a 5.7 litre engine. Even a small amount of lag, really doesnt matter very much. Perhaps if you had a small torqueless 2.0 engine, it would matter a LOT, but in this case....it isnt such an engine
odyssey2200 said:
Sorry i stopped watching as I lost the will to life half way through, Yawn!
2 words
TURBO LAG!
the time it takes to achieve an increase in pressure in the inlet manifold.
The closer you can get the turbo charger to the head the better.
When you floor that car you have to achieve an increase in pressure along the whole length of the car as well as run oil lines all the way back to the turbos and back to the engine
2 words
TURBO LAG!
the time it takes to achieve an increase in pressure in the inlet manifold.
The closer you can get the turbo charger to the head the better.
When you floor that car you have to achieve an increase in pressure along the whole length of the car as well as run oil lines all the way back to the turbos and back to the engine
im sorry but have you actually ever spoke to anyone with one of these systems????????
they are not IDEAL and no one ever said they where. but they do have there adavntages.alos you mentioned lag and this can be a problem, but with a fully wrapped exhaust or even cermaic coated and then wrapped, this problem is soon removed. there have also been problems with leacks on the cold side, but companies like TRT (a STS vendor that have a license to alter the STS products to!!) have come out with much neater setups.
also you have to look at what else is avaliable to these people. there are new kits coming out, but lot cost more than a well setup rear mount and offten means you have to relocate or even loose accesories like PAS and aircon!
if you still dont bieleve me than ask a few questions on this site www.ls1tech.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=9
thanks Chris.
odyssey2200 said:
Sorry i stopped watching as I lost the will to life half way through, Yawn!
2 words
TURBO LAG!
the time it takes to achieve an increase in pressure in the inlet manifold.
The closer you can get the turbo charger to the head the better.
When you floor that car you have to achieve an increase in pressure along the whole length of the car as well as run oil lines all the way back to the turbos and back to the engine
2 words
TURBO LAG!
the time it takes to achieve an increase in pressure in the inlet manifold.
The closer you can get the turbo charger to the head the better.
When you floor that car you have to achieve an increase in pressure along the whole length of the car as well as run oil lines all the way back to the turbos and back to the engine
they use the blow of valve and are only running 7 psi so lag is not that much of a problem
with it being a normal huge engine designed to run na anyway
so you still have 300 bhp till the turbo cuts in and only give 100 or so any way
turbo designed cars have a bigger problem as they are designed to be low compression without the turbo so they bog down
without the turbo this is still a normal small block chevy ls what ever version
its a compromise
splatspeed have you actually looked at the links i have poseted????????????
STS have done quiet a bit or research into the best turbine housings to use. they offer verious turbos depending on what power levels you want to run! yes there are loads of stock LS1,2 and 6's out there running these systems, but there are also some VERY highly modded ones!!!
lag is a problem when people start going for BIG turbos! one guy put a T88 (capable of about 1250bhp i think) onto a 370 cubic inch LS2 (6.0ltr) and it lagged laike crazy! he later switched back to a t76 with a larger housing (.96 over the .85 he was running before) and the back presure dropped massivly! and it still spooled quick.
also there is a guy on the LS1tech thats going for a 408 and a T88. odviously he not running a stock LS1 and he will be pushing a hell of alot more than 7psi! lol
thanks Chris.
STS have done quiet a bit or research into the best turbine housings to use. they offer verious turbos depending on what power levels you want to run! yes there are loads of stock LS1,2 and 6's out there running these systems, but there are also some VERY highly modded ones!!!
lag is a problem when people start going for BIG turbos! one guy put a T88 (capable of about 1250bhp i think) onto a 370 cubic inch LS2 (6.0ltr) and it lagged laike crazy! he later switched back to a t76 with a larger housing (.96 over the .85 he was running before) and the back presure dropped massivly! and it still spooled quick.
also there is a guy on the LS1tech thats going for a 408 and a T88. odviously he not running a stock LS1 and he will be pushing a hell of alot more than 7psi! lol
thanks Chris.
chuntington101 said:
splatspeed have you actually looked at the links i have poseted????????????
STS have done quiet a bit or research into the best turbine housings to use. they offer verious turbos depending on what power levels you want to run! yes there are loads of stock LS1,2 and 6's out there running these systems, but there are also some VERY highly modded ones!!!
lag is a problem when people start going for BIG turbos! one guy put a T88 (capable of about 1250bhp i think) onto a 370 cubic inch LS2 (6.0ltr) and it lagged laike crazy! he later switched back to a t76 with a larger housing (.96 over the .85 he was running before) and the back presure dropped massivly! and it still spooled quick.
also there is a guy on the LS1tech thats going for a 408 and a T88. odviously he not running a stock LS1 and he will be pushing a hell of alot more than 7psi! lol
thanks Chris.
STS have done quiet a bit or research into the best turbine housings to use. they offer verious turbos depending on what power levels you want to run! yes there are loads of stock LS1,2 and 6's out there running these systems, but there are also some VERY highly modded ones!!!
lag is a problem when people start going for BIG turbos! one guy put a T88 (capable of about 1250bhp i think) onto a 370 cubic inch LS2 (6.0ltr) and it lagged laike crazy! he later switched back to a t76 with a larger housing (.96 over the .85 he was running before) and the back presure dropped massivly! and it still spooled quick.
also there is a guy on the LS1tech thats going for a 408 and a T88. odviously he not running a stock LS1 and he will be pushing a hell of alot more than 7psi! lol
thanks Chris.
what point are you trying to make?????
this is the case in the video we are talking about
in the video they need the brake on the rolling road to get the turbos up to speed before doing the run
splatspeed said:
in the video they need the brake on the rolling road to get the turbos up to speed before doing the run
Do you know how rolling roads work ?
ANY set of rollers will need to place quite a resistance against a turbocharged engine, in order for it to make boost.
Problem with this in the US, is many of them use Dynojet rollers, which generally speaking place very limited loads against an engine, so this can cause problems on any turbocharged setup, as they may struggle to make the boost they would normally see on the road.
I was thinking about these systems recently and concluded there won't be any real lag because the turbo obstructs flow in the exhaust pipe. After all, this is what drives the turbine in the first place. So there will always be some pressure especially given the displacement of the engine. It's just a long column of air. Using stock C/r (appx 10:1) will keep the engine razor sharp.
Boosted.
Boosted.
splatspeed said:
chuntington101 said:
splatspeed have you actually looked at the links i have poseted????????????
STS have done quiet a bit or research into the best turbine housings to use. they offer verious turbos depending on what power levels you want to run! yes there are loads of stock LS1,2 and 6's out there running these systems, but there are also some VERY highly modded ones!!!
lag is a problem when people start going for BIG turbos! one guy put a T88 (capable of about 1250bhp i think) onto a 370 cubic inch LS2 (6.0ltr) and it lagged laike crazy! he later switched back to a t76 with a larger housing (.96 over the .85 he was running before) and the back presure dropped massivly! and it still spooled quick.
also there is a guy on the LS1tech thats going for a 408 and a T88. odviously he not running a stock LS1 and he will be pushing a hell of alot more than 7psi! lol
thanks Chris.
STS have done quiet a bit or research into the best turbine housings to use. they offer verious turbos depending on what power levels you want to run! yes there are loads of stock LS1,2 and 6's out there running these systems, but there are also some VERY highly modded ones!!!
lag is a problem when people start going for BIG turbos! one guy put a T88 (capable of about 1250bhp i think) onto a 370 cubic inch LS2 (6.0ltr) and it lagged laike crazy! he later switched back to a t76 with a larger housing (.96 over the .85 he was running before) and the back presure dropped massivly! and it still spooled quick.
also there is a guy on the LS1tech thats going for a 408 and a T88. odviously he not running a stock LS1 and he will be pushing a hell of alot more than 7psi! lol
thanks Chris.
what point are you trying to make?????
this is the case in the video we are talking about
in the video they need the brake on the rolling road to get the turbos up to speed before doing the run
sorry splatspeed, didn't mena to offend you.
i was simply pointing out that these systems are being used in much more demanding and high powered situations than most think they are.
another point i found out the other day, the STS kit for the C6 has just passed the US CARB approvel. this means that if they fit a out of the box STS system with the STS softwear they are completely leagal even in states with the smog (road side tests i think) testing.
i know over here we dont have silly things like that but for people that live in these areas it might be the only leagal (ie you know they cant take your car away from you) solution to getting boosted!
hope you didn't take offence.
thanks Chris.
chuntington101 said:
splatspeed said:
chuntington101 said:
splatspeed have you actually looked at the links i have poseted????????????
STS have done quiet a bit or research into the best turbine housings to use. they offer verious turbos depending on what power levels you want to run! yes there are loads of stock LS1,2 and 6's out there running these systems, but there are also some VERY highly modded ones!!!
lag is a problem when people start going for BIG turbos! one guy put a T88 (capable of about 1250bhp i think) onto a 370 cubic inch LS2 (6.0ltr) and it lagged laike crazy! he later switched back to a t76 with a larger housing (.96 over the .85 he was running before) and the back presure dropped massivly! and it still spooled quick.
also there is a guy on the LS1tech thats going for a 408 and a T88. odviously he not running a stock LS1 and he will be pushing a hell of alot more than 7psi! lol
thanks Chris.
STS have done quiet a bit or research into the best turbine housings to use. they offer verious turbos depending on what power levels you want to run! yes there are loads of stock LS1,2 and 6's out there running these systems, but there are also some VERY highly modded ones!!!
lag is a problem when people start going for BIG turbos! one guy put a T88 (capable of about 1250bhp i think) onto a 370 cubic inch LS2 (6.0ltr) and it lagged laike crazy! he later switched back to a t76 with a larger housing (.96 over the .85 he was running before) and the back presure dropped massivly! and it still spooled quick.
also there is a guy on the LS1tech thats going for a 408 and a T88. odviously he not running a stock LS1 and he will be pushing a hell of alot more than 7psi! lol
thanks Chris.
what point are you trying to make?????
this is the case in the video we are talking about
in the video they need the brake on the rolling road to get the turbos up to speed before doing the run
sorry splatspeed, didn't mena to offend you.
i was simply pointing out that these systems are being used in much more demanding and high powered situations than most think they are.
another point i found out the other day, the STS kit for the C6 has just passed the US CARB approvel. this means that if they fit a out of the box STS system with the STS softwear they are completely leagal even in states with the smog (road side tests i think) testing.
i know over here we dont have silly things like that but for people that live in these areas it might be the only leagal (ie you know they cant take your car away from you) solution to getting boosted!
hope you didn't take offence.
thanks Chris.
no offence i just didn't understand your point
i am refering to this app here
for 7 psi it is perfectly ok
it is only when you try to run much higher boosts you get into problem
however as it is a NA engine to run the higher boosts you really need the engine out to increase the cumbustion chamber
this only takes an afternoon to fit and if it wasn't for the noise level i would consider the package however no silencers is a real issue for track use
plus i only want 7 psi anyway as i want to use gas
Splatspeed said
"however as it is a NA engine to run the higher boosts you really need the engine out to increase the cumbustion chamber".
You don't have to do this. It's quite common to fit large chambered 317 heads or the cam could be changed giving a lower DCR. If fitting forged pistons you might need to remove the engine depending on the vehicle. Stock pistons seem reasonably up to the job so long as you avoid detonation.
Boosted.
"however as it is a NA engine to run the higher boosts you really need the engine out to increase the cumbustion chamber".
You don't have to do this. It's quite common to fit large chambered 317 heads or the cam could be changed giving a lower DCR. If fitting forged pistons you might need to remove the engine depending on the vehicle. Stock pistons seem reasonably up to the job so long as you avoid detonation.
Boosted.
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