Chargecooler flow questions
Discussion
On the right is my stock manifold (very rough), and on the left is my manifold cut in half, with the fairly large linear extruded centre chamber cut down and then a pre-determined available intercooler core aligned in-between them.
Now, assuming I can seal the top and bottom of my manifold to the core so it's air-tight, and I chamber the core in so water can flow (baffles/in/out to be decided for optimum flow) is this design going to cause issues.
My main concern is the exit of the chargecooler core to the individual intake tracts. Is the fact air at the far left may have just left the core and is required at the far right intake port cause weird issues?
Any chargecooler experts have any advice on core type? Is my idea wrong? Is a longer run better, or a shorter larger cross-sectional area acceptable (like here)?
Here the stack runs across the ports, 340mm tall, 50mm deep (60mm overall core depth), and 120mm long (ie, top to bottom in this application)...
Which is the best way to run the water red way or blue way or doesn't it matter that much? I've seen Pace Products appear to have an evenly finned core for their chargecoolers, so it's like the blue arrowed direction both ways. Is that necessary and what makes their products so good?
Had a read on a few pages googling 'chargecooler design' but I can't really find anything like do's and dont's of chargecooling
Main thing for me to think about is if this is going to be at all efficient, wrt to the core orientation and locale to the intake ports (kinda like an XKR chargecooler)
Just wondering if there is anything really stupid in this idea that will let it down.
Thanks
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Wednesday 20th June 17:29
Weird manifold....
took a while to figure it out.
So its a large volume plenum, feeding multiple throttles ?
One aspect of adding an IC core in there... I would think that unless you add a very large plenum after the core, and then feed into the cylinders, it will be quite innefficient.
The way it appears, you might have say 4 tubes of the IC, feeding one cylinder.
Obviously thats not a good setup ?
I would prefer the air to enter the IC, exit the IC, have the flow smoothed or grouped again in some way, and then distributed to each cylinder
took a while to figure it out.
So its a large volume plenum, feeding multiple throttles ?
One aspect of adding an IC core in there... I would think that unless you add a very large plenum after the core, and then feed into the cylinders, it will be quite innefficient.
The way it appears, you might have say 4 tubes of the IC, feeding one cylinder.
Obviously thats not a good setup ?
I would prefer the air to enter the IC, exit the IC, have the flow smoothed or grouped again in some way, and then distributed to each cylinder
stevieturbo said:
Weird manifold....
took a while to figure it out.
So its a large volume plenum, feeding multiple throttles ?
One aspect of adding an IC core in there... I would think that unless you add a very large plenum after the core, and then feed into the cylinders, it will be quite innefficient.
The way it appears, you might have say 4 tubes of the IC, feeding one cylinder.
Obviously thats not a good setup ?
I would prefer the air to enter the IC, exit the IC, have the flow smoothed or grouped again in some way, and then distributed to each cylinder
Yes, that is my main worry. I'd like to see inside a Jaguar XKR chargecooler though as these seem to be very similar.took a while to figure it out.
So its a large volume plenum, feeding multiple throttles ?
One aspect of adding an IC core in there... I would think that unless you add a very large plenum after the core, and then feed into the cylinders, it will be quite innefficient.
The way it appears, you might have say 4 tubes of the IC, feeding one cylinder.
Obviously thats not a good setup ?
I would prefer the air to enter the IC, exit the IC, have the flow smoothed or grouped again in some way, and then distributed to each cylinder
It is an odd shaped manifold to start with, I'm not quite sure why it is like that, though it does have alot of EGR clutter around/on it too so that would be dumped (already unplugged) and there is a bit more room above it/behind it.
I'm planning on getting a manifold soon to get exact dimensions, and modelling the back of the engine bay roughly, so I will see what I can get away with
Still not sure what aspect is optimal though, so may be more questions to come
Thanks for advice so far guys
Dave
Arr, chargecooling - one of my favorite subjects.
If you typed "chargecooler design" into google, then you probably would of found my pages on the subject starting at http://www.mez.co.uk/turbo8.html
Want to see inside a jaguar core? - Easy, ive got a pair of them:
Its late..will ponder...
If you typed "chargecooler design" into google, then you probably would of found my pages on the subject starting at http://www.mez.co.uk/turbo8.html
Want to see inside a jaguar core? - Easy, ive got a pair of them:
Its late..will ponder...
I agree with Steve's comment about distribution between the matrix and the intakes.
Based on those schematics I'd put the water flow through the tubes and the air flow through the gaps. This is simply based on the relative cross-section areas; you want as little restriction as possible on the air side, but restriction on the water side is relatively unimportant.
If you can arrange a multi-pass water flow set up to provide a counterflow arrangement it will work a *lot* better. Visualise two shallow layers of matrix with the air going through both layers, cold water entering the layer nearest the air outlet and then passing through the layer nearest the air inlet. Hard to describe in words but hopefully you see what I mean.
The main advantage of an intercooler seems to be the extra thermal mass of the water system. You should be prepared to play around with the water flow rates. I understand that in practice more water flow isn't necessarily better and once it's working you might be surprised what happens if you turn the water flow rate down. (This is something that works in the real world but usually not in test beds with infinite supplies of cold water.)
Based on those schematics I'd put the water flow through the tubes and the air flow through the gaps. This is simply based on the relative cross-section areas; you want as little restriction as possible on the air side, but restriction on the water side is relatively unimportant.
If you can arrange a multi-pass water flow set up to provide a counterflow arrangement it will work a *lot* better. Visualise two shallow layers of matrix with the air going through both layers, cold water entering the layer nearest the air outlet and then passing through the layer nearest the air inlet. Hard to describe in words but hopefully you see what I mean.
The main advantage of an intercooler seems to be the extra thermal mass of the water system. You should be prepared to play around with the water flow rates. I understand that in practice more water flow isn't necessarily better and once it's working you might be surprised what happens if you turn the water flow rate down. (This is something that works in the real world but usually not in test beds with infinite supplies of cold water.)
getting a decent distribution of water over that core will be difficult, would be better to use 2 or 3 shorter cores and snake the water through it.
crap drawing, but you get the idea:
Ive spent a fair amount pondering over pumps and flow rates, I was going to buy an overpowerful jabsco pump and then build a speed controller to measure the effects of varying the speed. But in the end i got a bosch pump that pumps almost as quickly as a garden hose - i considered that plenty (the jabsco was double a garden hose)
Another thing people dont seem to consider is having a ducted intercooler; basicly you stick exactly to your original pic at the top and fit a cowl over it with a duct going to the front of the car with a scoop. And perhaps another one behind to exhaust the warm air.
must catch the train....
crap drawing, but you get the idea:
Ive spent a fair amount pondering over pumps and flow rates, I was going to buy an overpowerful jabsco pump and then build a speed controller to measure the effects of varying the speed. But in the end i got a bosch pump that pumps almost as quickly as a garden hose - i considered that plenty (the jabsco was double a garden hose)
Another thing people dont seem to consider is having a ducted intercooler; basicly you stick exactly to your original pic at the top and fit a cowl over it with a duct going to the front of the car with a scoop. And perhaps another one behind to exhaust the warm air.
must catch the train....
Mr Whipple, in your first pics about should the air be red or blue, you deffinatley want it to be the red! if you look aat the ends of the core shouls in that pick you can see it would be VERY hard to get good airflow through the core if the air where the blue arrows.
can i ask what its going in???? also is there any reason you want to co for a chargcooler setup rather than a air to air intercooler setup??? finally is it critical to use this style system (cooler built into intake manifold) or could you set away with a off the shelf chargecooler???
thanks Chris.
can i ask what its going in???? also is there any reason you want to co for a chargcooler setup rather than a air to air intercooler setup??? finally is it critical to use this style system (cooler built into intake manifold) or could you set away with a off the shelf chargecooler???
thanks Chris.
chuntington101 said:
can i ask what its going in???? also is there any reason you want to co for a chargcooler setup rather than a air to air intercooler setup??? finally is it critical to use this style system (cooler built into intake manifold) or could you set away with a off the shelf chargecooler???
I agree - photos of the engine or engine bay would be good.Air to Air systems will always perform better than a Air to Water. You should consider intercooling first, only looking at chargecooler if you can’t easily package an A-A system.
The water in a chargecooler is only a conduit of heat, you still need to get that heat back out again - each stage (A-W, then W-A) has its own in-efficiencies - whereas A-A is one step. The only exception is drag racing with a large water tank with ice.
Take a look through this site:
http://www.are.com.au/Inter/air_to_water.htm
The guy has spent considerable time testing and developing good systems.
The application is a 306 Hdi.
http://www.christiantena.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/moto...
9 - 1 - THE INDUCTION CIRCUIT
My pipe 44 bends down though, and then attaches via a rubber pipe to the turbo 'up' feed.
The main reason for chargecooling (if I could) here is simply due to the requirement to source the forward bending top-pipe (44) and then the forward travelling turbo > manifold pipe, which would then go to a cooler of some type elsewhere in the engine bay.
OR, I could make new pipes. Either way, it's alot of pipe changing, and the top of the engine is rather obscured by the air-box and battery etc, so however you view it there is alot of work.
Another reason is for kits. Alot of people make FMIC's for these cars, but it's alot of work as every one is unique and no one has found THE best way yet. A simple manifold and top-feed rubber pipe extension, then just low-diameter water feeds would be one way forward!
http://www.easyweld.com/
That made me think throwing a core in might not be *that* hard. I have lots of old manifolds and intercoolers kicking around to practice on.
I saw your page straight away Eliot, and remembered reading it a year ago. Very interesting
Basically my gap is here...
There is the top-feed pipe/manifold union. This point can move up/down and forward and back a bit if I like as the 'up-feed' pipe mates with the L-bend attachment to the manifold with a flexible rubber hose (hence thinking this is a good spot!)
And the profile across the back top of the engine isn't so bad. I considered heat but then if this is running cool then it's not such a big issue.
I'm sure there is a way of getting it all in there and working well, relatively easily. I know if I managed to make it fit from the stock manifold and piping then it'd be a handy kit to make/sell maybe... anyone can make an FMIC and spend days routing 2" bore pipes and cutting their slam panel etc, but to do it in such a revertable way is handy!
Will get a manifold anyway, then measure/model the aperture I have to work with.
If I look at Pace Products intercooler cores for reference to what I may have to work with is that a good idea?
http://www.paceproducts.co.uk/public_html/php/prod...
Do I want to send water through THAT cross section, and then have the air going across the apparent 'radiatory' bit?
Eliot, does the XKR charger run straight from the core to the manifold portings, or very close? I wonder if this will be a big problem or not, especially on a lowly 2.0 4 pot derv @ 1.2 ish bar...
Thanks for all the help so far. Just deciding if it's viable and best practice really. I can do an FMIC but it's all the pipework in 2" bore. This is just the water pipes and a slightly longer rubber joiner pipe.
Dave
http://www.christiantena.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/moto...
9 - 1 - THE INDUCTION CIRCUIT
My pipe 44 bends down though, and then attaches via a rubber pipe to the turbo 'up' feed.
The main reason for chargecooling (if I could) here is simply due to the requirement to source the forward bending top-pipe (44) and then the forward travelling turbo > manifold pipe, which would then go to a cooler of some type elsewhere in the engine bay.
OR, I could make new pipes. Either way, it's alot of pipe changing, and the top of the engine is rather obscured by the air-box and battery etc, so however you view it there is alot of work.
Another reason is for kits. Alot of people make FMIC's for these cars, but it's alot of work as every one is unique and no one has found THE best way yet. A simple manifold and top-feed rubber pipe extension, then just low-diameter water feeds would be one way forward!
http://www.easyweld.com/
That made me think throwing a core in might not be *that* hard. I have lots of old manifolds and intercoolers kicking around to practice on.
I saw your page straight away Eliot, and remembered reading it a year ago. Very interesting
Basically my gap is here...
There is the top-feed pipe/manifold union. This point can move up/down and forward and back a bit if I like as the 'up-feed' pipe mates with the L-bend attachment to the manifold with a flexible rubber hose (hence thinking this is a good spot!)
And the profile across the back top of the engine isn't so bad. I considered heat but then if this is running cool then it's not such a big issue.
I'm sure there is a way of getting it all in there and working well, relatively easily. I know if I managed to make it fit from the stock manifold and piping then it'd be a handy kit to make/sell maybe... anyone can make an FMIC and spend days routing 2" bore pipes and cutting their slam panel etc, but to do it in such a revertable way is handy!
Will get a manifold anyway, then measure/model the aperture I have to work with.
If I look at Pace Products intercooler cores for reference to what I may have to work with is that a good idea?
http://www.paceproducts.co.uk/public_html/php/prod...
Do I want to send water through THAT cross section, and then have the air going across the apparent 'radiatory' bit?
Eliot, does the XKR charger run straight from the core to the manifold portings, or very close? I wonder if this will be a big problem or not, especially on a lowly 2.0 4 pot derv @ 1.2 ish bar...
Thanks for all the help so far. Just deciding if it's viable and best practice really. I can do an FMIC but it's all the pipework in 2" bore. This is just the water pipes and a slightly longer rubber joiner pipe.
Dave
eliot said:
Arr, chargecooling - one of my favorite subjects.
If you typed "chargecooler design" into google, then you probably would of found my pages on the subject starting at http://www.mez.co.uk/turbo8.html
Want to see inside a jaguar core? - Easy, ive got a pair of them:
Its late..will ponder...
Hmm interesting, so they blow the water down the core's, so is it blocked off across the top at one end, and does a return at the bottom end?If you typed "chargecooler design" into google, then you probably would of found my pages on the subject starting at http://www.mez.co.uk/turbo8.html
Want to see inside a jaguar core? - Easy, ive got a pair of them:
Its late..will ponder...
Basically a twin-pass cooler? Is that more efficient than just letting the water go down all at once and then piping it back out the other end? Is it just keeping the water in the element for longer as it can take more heat on?
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
Do I want to send water through THAT cross section, and then have the air going across the apparent 'radiatory' bit?
yes you do! and to your questions on the cores above, yes it so the water has longer to soak the heat up
also give a more even temp diffrence across the whole core. ie where the cold water comes in is also where the hot water leaves and at the otehr end, the water is at a warm temp. thanks Chris.
Right, I think the manifold idea is a bit pants simply due to the locale of the ports to the exit of the cooling cores.
In theory there is alot of height across the top of the cam cover and back over the cavity as per images above... now assuming I can replace the L-bend with an adequate fabricated bend/fixing plate combo, I could come over the top of the engine... it's not as 'nice' but considering issues discussed it's probably the only way to go
So have two cores, each one a 2 x 28mm row with 65mm core (overall 80mm flange to flange from Pace Products) 300mm extrusion, and 70mm deep top to bottom (could probably go down to 50mm (2"
height for good clearance, and the volume is still 50% more than that of a similar installation that is just air to air... just not sure if Pace would provide a 2 x 28mm row core that is only 50mm tall... not many stacks...
Is there any elaborate way to do a reversal at the end of the core? Would 20mm clearance and the nautral flow characteristics give good fill round this bend?
This is a design that looks familiar, the 405 T16 Peugeot had a chargecooler similar to this, though not sure where to find one, and also probably deeper top to bottom. Is it a good idea to baffle the water injection points so we get all the core's filling up with diffused flow, or again does it naturally fill the core face as it would at a reversal?
I'm guessing the air intakes will give good fill here too? Ie, air won't flow across the nearest half and not flow to the far end? I guess I could copy other similar applications to this, it's just knowing if they are an effective method to copy from.
There seem to be some relatively cheap coolers on Ebay with a similar layout, but they are quite deep and I'm not sure they can be that good.
Dave
In theory there is alot of height across the top of the cam cover and back over the cavity as per images above... now assuming I can replace the L-bend with an adequate fabricated bend/fixing plate combo, I could come over the top of the engine... it's not as 'nice' but considering issues discussed it's probably the only way to go
So have two cores, each one a 2 x 28mm row with 65mm core (overall 80mm flange to flange from Pace Products) 300mm extrusion, and 70mm deep top to bottom (could probably go down to 50mm (2"
height for good clearance, and the volume is still 50% more than that of a similar installation that is just air to air... just not sure if Pace would provide a 2 x 28mm row core that is only 50mm tall... not many stacks...Is there any elaborate way to do a reversal at the end of the core? Would 20mm clearance and the nautral flow characteristics give good fill round this bend?
This is a design that looks familiar, the 405 T16 Peugeot had a chargecooler similar to this, though not sure where to find one, and also probably deeper top to bottom. Is it a good idea to baffle the water injection points so we get all the core's filling up with diffused flow, or again does it naturally fill the core face as it would at a reversal?
I'm guessing the air intakes will give good fill here too? Ie, air won't flow across the nearest half and not flow to the far end? I guess I could copy other similar applications to this, it's just knowing if they are an effective method to copy from.
There seem to be some relatively cheap coolers on Ebay with a similar layout, but they are quite deep and I'm not sure they can be that good.
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Thursday 21st June 15:26
Your picture doesn't show the dividing line between the two water jackets - but yes, just the fact that the end tanks are joined will allow the coolant round (that's how pace do it).
If it were mine (or i was building another) i would leave them seperate and join them externally with a hose. Then you can play around with the flows and direction.
If you do decide to go ahead, drop me a line as i have some tips on how you weld those things up - as i learn't several lessons.
If it were mine (or i was building another) i would leave them seperate and join them externally with a hose. Then you can play around with the flows and direction.
If you do decide to go ahead, drop me a line as i have some tips on how you weld those things up - as i learn't several lessons.
eliot said:
Your picture doesn't show the dividing line between the two water jackets - but yes, just the fact that the end tanks are joined will allow the coolant round (that's how pace do it).
If it were mine (or i was building another) i would leave them seperate and join them externally with a hose. Then you can play around with the flows and direction.
If you do decide to go ahead, drop me a line as i have some tips on how you weld those things up - as i learn't several lessons.
I'm dangerous when I think so don't worry that I keep changing direction.If it were mine (or i was building another) i would leave them seperate and join them externally with a hose. Then you can play around with the flows and direction.
If you do decide to go ahead, drop me a line as i have some tips on how you weld those things up - as i learn't several lessons.
I'm almost tempted here to use the Tdi models intercooler as a base for a chargecooler now I can't go down the back/integrated manifold route (well not effectively anyway). I can seal it on top and bottom, spin the feed at one end round, and then make an adaptor for the opposing exit that goes to the OEM manifold. This way I just need to make an up-feed adaptor and the manifold adaptor (i'd have to for the other one anyway), but this way I can get the core's for £10 from scrappers and experiment lots
My brother seems to think if I loosen the turbo head and rotate it to point up I can use the 1.9Tdi up-feed pipe, but not sure where that will land the intercooler...
Only thing is it's big and flat, so getting water to stay in there and mix around is key. Is it possible to weld baffles as per the red lines, or is the ally too thin? (did you take a look at that easy weld stuff?)
Or, I could simply weld baffles to the face plates and put silicone sealer along the ends before putting it over the cooler.
Then I could have it snake up and down along the core, and have the water pipes enter and leave underneath for neatness.
Just ideas again... benefit of this is loads of parts for not very much £££ and can bench test/scrap ideas without huge cost.
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Thursday 21st June 16:41
Mr Whippy said:
Which is the best way to run the water red way or blue way or doesn't it matter that much? I've seen Pace Products appear to have an evenly finned core for their chargecoolers, so it's like the blue arrowed direction both ways. Is that necessary and what makes their products so good?
The thing you need to be extremely careful about is not having an excessive pressure drop across the cooler by having an overly dense matrix or tortuous path. You also need to make sure that the water to air heat exchanger is adequately sized and the pump flow is good.
While air to air coolers are effective they do have the penalty of potentially adding a lot of air into the system which affects transient response but you do need to bear this in mind:
1) When you design the cooler the mounting needs to be very good, or you will fatigue the cooler and this results in a hydrolocked engine - not good.
2) Localised boiling will wipe a cooler out and then hydrolock the engine.
Hence for OE work we do a lot of analysis and use a lot of thermocouples to make sure that we have everything perfectly before it goes to the public.
you might want to have a look at this.
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
looks very similar to the new 'cooler you cam up with.
Chris.
http://www.pistonheads.co.uk/gassing/topic.asp?h=0...
looks very similar to the new 'cooler you cam up with.
Chris.
GavinPearson said:
1) When you design the cooler the mounting needs to be very good, or you will fatigue the cooler and this results in a hydrolocked engine - not good.
2) Localised boiling will wipe a cooler out and then hydrolock the engine.
Mmmm, nice thoughts 2) Localised boiling will wipe a cooler out and then hydrolock the engine.
When you say mounted well, I assume thats making sure most points are affixed rigidly to the same moving body, so no part of the cooler is exposed to torsional forces about any of it's axis? Ie, mount all four corners, not just half and leave the other end floating etc.
As for boiling, is that really possible to the extent that it isn't detected and causes issues? Ie, a cubic cm in a corner manages to get THAT hot and then boil would cause problems?
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
GavinPearson said:
1) When you design the cooler the mounting needs to be very good, or you will fatigue the cooler and this results in a hydrolocked engine - not good.
2) Localised boiling will wipe a cooler out and then hydrolock the engine.
Mmmm, nice thoughts 2) Localised boiling will wipe a cooler out and then hydrolock the engine.
When you say mounted well, I assume thats making sure most points are affixed rigidly to the same moving body, so no part of the cooler is exposed to torsional forces about any of it's axis? Ie, mount all four corners, not just half and leave the other end floating etc.
As for boiling, is that really possible to the extent that it isn't detected and causes issues? Ie, a cubic cm in a corner manages to get THAT hot and then boil would cause problems?
Dave
Chris.
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