Chargecooler flow questions
Discussion
Is that just due to their being a header where you can add some air-pressure to pressurise the system and raise the boiling point of the water?
Is there any good way to test for localised boiling before operational use? Ie, fill with water from kettle and see if it blows up
Bit out of my depth now
Dave
Is there any good way to test for localised boiling before operational use? Ie, fill with water from kettle and see if it blows up
Bit out of my depth now
Dave
Well I made a cardboard test intercooler tonight (one I can get from the 1.9Tdi) and apart from covering my oil filler cap, and needing to re-route a vacuum hose, I think I might actually be able to get it to fit... almost in the same place as on the Tdi (so can use bonnet lining duct) I closed the bonnet a few times and it didn't get squashed so there is ample room too... surprised it fit so well as it didn't the other year, but realised the 405 one is two inches narrower so fits between the brake master cylinder and air intake/AFM now!
Just the pipe to and from it now.
Anyone here ever made a mandrel for making hoses from? Samco said it was £80 for a custom hose, but cheaper if I do lots, so potential for a kit here as the intercoolers are about £10 off Ebay, so maybe a nice little earner for me
Main problem if I were to do a 'kit' is the intercooler to manifold union. Anyone here have any experience with ally casting using a low-volume manufacturer? Any idea of rough costs before I even bother rining some places? Like these maybe?
http://www.uk-racing-castings.co.uk/castings_conte...
Even if it's say £600 to setup but I can buy 10x it's £60 each (Pug's similar part is £40 but they do make thousands) + maybe £30 for the hoses a piece for 10x, £10 for an old intercooler, so £100, is bugger all really vs the cost of the current alternatives.
Hmmmmmm...
Thanks again everyone for your advice!
Dave
Just the pipe to and from it now.
Anyone here ever made a mandrel for making hoses from? Samco said it was £80 for a custom hose, but cheaper if I do lots, so potential for a kit here as the intercoolers are about £10 off Ebay, so maybe a nice little earner for me
Main problem if I were to do a 'kit' is the intercooler to manifold union. Anyone here have any experience with ally casting using a low-volume manufacturer? Any idea of rough costs before I even bother rining some places? Like these maybe?
http://www.uk-racing-castings.co.uk/castings_conte...
Even if it's say £600 to setup but I can buy 10x it's £60 each (Pug's similar part is £40 but they do make thousands) + maybe £30 for the hoses a piece for 10x, £10 for an old intercooler, so £100, is bugger all really vs the cost of the current alternatives.
Hmmmmmm...
Thanks again everyone for your advice!
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Saturday 23 June 02:50
I did heat exchanger design as a part of my degree. I'd be happy to run through the calculations with you. What are your target temps? Apart from 
ing cold?
What sort of space do you have availible? Give me as much info as you can and I'll see if I can "solve" the problem with a purely maths approach.
I wonder if using water as a working fluid is such a good idea. I'm also wondering (having not thought about it much) if you could use aircon off a bus and then feed the working fluid into your chargecooler.
Knowing the area availible and then the starting T (max) would be a lot of help.
ing cold?What sort of space do you have availible? Give me as much info as you can and I'll see if I can "solve" the problem with a purely maths approach.
I wonder if using water as a working fluid is such a good idea. I'm also wondering (having not thought about it much) if you could use aircon off a bus and then feed the working fluid into your chargecooler.
Knowing the area availible and then the starting T (max) would be a lot of help.
Well right now I'm planning on using the intercooler from the 1.9 Tdi Peugeot 405.
It's 18" x 7" and 2" deep (vs the 20" x 7" x 1.5" Peugeot 306 one which is too wide!)
On the 306 at least, the cooler takes 80>100deg boosted air from ~ 20deg ambient down to ~ 10-20deg above ambient, with actual post intercooler temps never being much over 45deg... the reality is when your sat in traffic demand is low and the intercooler is actually probably inter-warming the intake air by sinking it's heat away...
Once moving the bonnet lining vent seems to work really well.
I'm guessing if a ~ 100deg non-intercooled Hdi can hit 120bhp, and the above intercooler providing for a similar capacity/cfm (and even the same turbo, kkk03), then doing a quickie
270+100 / 270+45 * 120bhp ~ 141bhp @ stock boost which I would be pretty happy with, and thats at stock boosting ~ 1.0bar, my brothers temps were taken up at 1.3bar!
GreenV8S, yeah, my brother suggested I get a Tdi manifold for the oblong union from the intercooler, and a Hdi manifold, and just graft them together using plates and what not.
I really do think it's easily possible to fabricate and build, so I might DIY it for now, map the car and see what happens. If I can hit 150bhp with a top-mount and show air-temps then I might get enough interest to get a proper two-piece kit made up.
I just like the idea of it being neat and OEM, a nice black Samco and a cast manifold adaptor, with a Peugeot series intercooler would look pretty neat and tidy!
Dave
It's 18" x 7" and 2" deep (vs the 20" x 7" x 1.5" Peugeot 306 one which is too wide!)
On the 306 at least, the cooler takes 80>100deg boosted air from ~ 20deg ambient down to ~ 10-20deg above ambient, with actual post intercooler temps never being much over 45deg... the reality is when your sat in traffic demand is low and the intercooler is actually probably inter-warming the intake air by sinking it's heat away...
Once moving the bonnet lining vent seems to work really well.
I'm guessing if a ~ 100deg non-intercooled Hdi can hit 120bhp, and the above intercooler providing for a similar capacity/cfm (and even the same turbo, kkk03), then doing a quickie
270+100 / 270+45 * 120bhp ~ 141bhp @ stock boost which I would be pretty happy with, and thats at stock boosting ~ 1.0bar, my brothers temps were taken up at 1.3bar!
GreenV8S, yeah, my brother suggested I get a Tdi manifold for the oblong union from the intercooler, and a Hdi manifold, and just graft them together using plates and what not.
I really do think it's easily possible to fabricate and build, so I might DIY it for now, map the car and see what happens. If I can hit 150bhp with a top-mount and show air-temps then I might get enough interest to get a proper two-piece kit made up.
I just like the idea of it being neat and OEM, a nice black Samco and a cast manifold adaptor, with a Peugeot series intercooler would look pretty neat and tidy!
Dave
Cara Jynwyth said:
I wonder if using water as a working fluid is such a good idea. I'm also wondering (having not thought about it much) if you could use aircon off a bus and then feed the working fluid into your chargecooler.
Aircon pump draws far too much power....I have to ask the question....
Given you say this is for a pug diesel engine.....
Is all of this going to be worth the hassle and expense ? Its a diesel !!!!
stevieturbo said:
I have to ask the question....
Given you say this is for a pug diesel engine.....
Is all of this going to be worth the hassle and expense ? Its a diesel !!!!
Well I like tinkering with cars Given you say this is for a pug diesel engine.....
Is all of this going to be worth the hassle and expense ? Its a diesel !!!!
The derv, well it's just interesting, I've learnt so much more about diesels over the last year and that for me is fun!
The expense, well the remap file will cost me £50-75, so not bad at all, the intercooler I have, so it's just making two adaptors really.
Only real hassle will be insurance, but I'm happy enough to pay that for a bit of fun.
Must admit though, it will only be faster, not much more fun. But day to day and the more common 40mph trains of cars in national limits will be more easily dispatched.
Also, getting up nearer 140bhp/tonne in a derv will be interesting! Plenty of threads on PH about if diesels can be sporty and fun... well I've essentially got a 306 GTi6 (a car that won universal praise as a sporty fun car), with what will be almost Gti6 power to weight ratio. If it's not as fun then I think it proves a point
Dave
Propane injection. Sounds pretty mad
Well I got a 405 intercooler, swapped the end-tank round so now it's facing the right way, and next job is removing the weird engine cover pins so I can get the IC sat over the engine nicely, oh and give the IC a really good clean (the inside was soooo oily, probably 50% less efficient because of that!)
Then it's time to start using some old bits of exhaust and stuff to mock up a rough pipe or two, and then onto the drawing board to make some working connectors
In theory it will fit, just lots of custom fabrication
Anyone here know if I can make an adaptor on a 3d CNC machine? Is it expensive if I send someone the CAD/CAM design? I can model the bit in 30mins you see, but fabricating one will take me a day and look like a royal mess and still leak
Dave
Well I got a 405 intercooler, swapped the end-tank round so now it's facing the right way, and next job is removing the weird engine cover pins so I can get the IC sat over the engine nicely, oh and give the IC a really good clean (the inside was soooo oily, probably 50% less efficient because of that!)
Then it's time to start using some old bits of exhaust and stuff to mock up a rough pipe or two, and then onto the drawing board to make some working connectors
In theory it will fit, just lots of custom fabrication
Anyone here know if I can make an adaptor on a 3d CNC machine? Is it expensive if I send someone the CAD/CAM design? I can model the bit in 30mins you see, but fabricating one will take me a day and look like a royal mess and still leak
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Tuesday 26th June 11:52
Swapped the tank around.
But a few of these metal things snapped bending them back, damn metal fatigue
Still leaking a tiny bit though, if I fill it with water against the end tank I turned around, it drips very slowly (maybe 3 times a minute) is that severe? Wish I'd run a silicone bead around now. If I bend the fins open againt they'll all snap
I guess a run around with some silicone on the outside might do? Anyone have any tricks for pressure testing them effectively?
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
Propane injection. Sounds pretty mad
its not as mad as it might sound! basically the propane increase the rate the diesel burns at. this increase the temps as makes more power. plus the propane provides some fuel and more heat. and we all know heat is goooodddd for turbos!
the systems i have heard of kick the propane in at about 5-7psi. exhaust temps are critical on diesels though so you have to monitor them to make sure they are not too high. some systems have cut offs if the EGT reach a certain level.
also have you thought about N2O??? i know it sounds daft but it really good for diesels! also it would cool the intake and give you really low intake temps with the intercooler!
thanks CHris.
PS. is there no way of getting more of the metal clips or are the part of the end tanks?? is there no way you could get them off another core???
Hmmm, propane sounds dangerous to the turbo, probably alot more viable if I had an intercooler to start with as the EGT's would be lower to start with. Certainly sounds a good way to just get more if you have the potential
N2O is a viable alternative, cooler intake and then just pump more fuel in. I guess with a progressive controller to fill the torque from peak torque onwards so it hardly drops off would be damn fun
Mainly just looking for a more accepted alteration though. If I wanted to do the job 'right' then a friend has just bought all the parts for a front-mounted intercooler for £500, so not a huge amount (watching is closely and if it works really well I might just copy it)
As always though, I like to do things on the cheap and as OEM as possible if I can, so here I am. I'm probably going to mock up this intercooler to fit, if it leaks alot then I'll just get another and re-do it (I learnt the do's and dont's doing this one) with a silicon bead and a bit of heat!
I guess ally will go soft with some heat and be less likely to suffer fatigue? Is it then best to leave them warm, turn the tank, close them, and then cool them quickly or slowly? Need to go read about aluminium metalworking I think
Thanks
Dave
N2O is a viable alternative, cooler intake and then just pump more fuel in. I guess with a progressive controller to fill the torque from peak torque onwards so it hardly drops off would be damn fun
Mainly just looking for a more accepted alteration though. If I wanted to do the job 'right' then a friend has just bought all the parts for a front-mounted intercooler for £500, so not a huge amount (watching is closely and if it works really well I might just copy it)
As always though, I like to do things on the cheap and as OEM as possible if I can, so here I am. I'm probably going to mock up this intercooler to fit, if it leaks alot then I'll just get another and re-do it (I learnt the do's and dont's doing this one) with a silicon bead and a bit of heat!
I guess ally will go soft with some heat and be less likely to suffer fatigue? Is it then best to leave them warm, turn the tank, close them, and then cool them quickly or slowly? Need to go read about aluminium metalworking I think
Thanks
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
But a few of these metal things snapped bending them back, damn metal fatigue
Sometimes when this happens during development they just put a metal clip on over the broken segments - imagine a springy tube slotted lengthways. God only knows how they fit them, but they seem to do the job.For sealing very small leaks on the water circuit, ideally don't have any in the first place but realistically a dose of Wynns rad sealer should take care of it.
Well I swapped the tank round as said, and got some leaking.
So far I have trimmed away the plastic that were normally attachments to the underneath, but were stabbing upwards into the bonnet lining.
I have worked at the fins more and now it seems to be watertight at least. I may well strap it really tight and have another go with the fins to get it really good...
Ideally should have used silicone in the gap and strapped it from the start, but hey ho
Main issue I have really is flowing the core with water. It's different to how I thought it was and there are big issues to plumbing it to the actual engine at this stage.
Don't really have much time now for a while now, but next main job is removing the engine cover upgright pins which stab the core everytime I place it to see where exactly it will fit... unfortunately it's looking tighter and tighter regards fitting it on, mainly because it's just an inch too wide. It's either loose the stock airbox or move my heater matrix pipes, or maybe both...
Will still have a go though of course
Dave
So far I have trimmed away the plastic that were normally attachments to the underneath, but were stabbing upwards into the bonnet lining.
I have worked at the fins more and now it seems to be watertight at least. I may well strap it really tight and have another go with the fins to get it really good...
Ideally should have used silicone in the gap and strapped it from the start, but hey ho
Main issue I have really is flowing the core with water. It's different to how I thought it was and there are big issues to plumbing it to the actual engine at this stage.
Don't really have much time now for a while now, but next main job is removing the engine cover upgright pins which stab the core everytime I place it to see where exactly it will fit... unfortunately it's looking tighter and tighter regards fitting it on, mainly because it's just an inch too wide. It's either loose the stock airbox or move my heater matrix pipes, or maybe both...
Will still have a go though of course
Dave
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