Discussion
Now, as most of you won't be tuning Volvos you'll probably not be talking to Swedes.
For the record, I'll give you guys a stereotype.
These guys are insane! Over there, the average tuned WWD Volvo is 5-600hp and the average RWD is not far behind.
Having spoken to a few guys (the Swedes are notoriously secretive until you get to know them) it seems that one of the things they consider crucial to big power is exhaust back pressure, or rather, the lack of it.
A turbo will always create back pressure, but if the turbo is too small the back pressure within the exhaust (and therefore the cylinder) can approach that of the intake charge pressure. Thre in-efficiency that this creates within the engine is obvious, but often overlooked.
The solution they've come to (in general) is to use truck turbos. Holset HX35, 40 and even 50's are common. I know of a 2.0l pushrod engine making over 500whp that is still driveable on the street. It runs the 1/4 mile a second quicker than a Gallardo!
Many people will say that such a big turbo will make the car undriveable, but this is disproven with many cars. On the same note it has to be said that in Scandanavia as much is spent on the dyno as is spent on building the engine- often more, in fact.
Discuss.
For the record, I'll give you guys a stereotype.
These guys are insane! Over there, the average tuned WWD Volvo is 5-600hp and the average RWD is not far behind.
Having spoken to a few guys (the Swedes are notoriously secretive until you get to know them) it seems that one of the things they consider crucial to big power is exhaust back pressure, or rather, the lack of it.
A turbo will always create back pressure, but if the turbo is too small the back pressure within the exhaust (and therefore the cylinder) can approach that of the intake charge pressure. Thre in-efficiency that this creates within the engine is obvious, but often overlooked.
The solution they've come to (in general) is to use truck turbos. Holset HX35, 40 and even 50's are common. I know of a 2.0l pushrod engine making over 500whp that is still driveable on the street. It runs the 1/4 mile a second quicker than a Gallardo!
Many people will say that such a big turbo will make the car undriveable, but this is disproven with many cars. On the same note it has to be said that in Scandanavia as much is spent on the dyno as is spent on building the engine- often more, in fact.
Discuss.
BB-Q said:
Now, as most of you won't be tuning Volvos you'll probably not be talking to Swedes.
For the record, I'll give you guys a stereotype.
These guys are insane! Over there, the average tuned WWD Volvo is 5-600hp and the average RWD is not far behind.
Having spoken to a few guys (the Swedes are notoriously secretive until you get to know them) it seems that one of the things they consider crucial to big power is exhaust back pressure, or rather, the lack of it.
A turbo will always create back pressure, but if the turbo is too small the back pressure within the exhaust (and therefore the cylinder) can approach that of the intake charge pressure. Thre in-efficiency that this creates within the engine is obvious, but often overlooked.
The solution they've come to (in general) is to use truck turbos. Holset HX35, 40 and even 50's are common. I know of a 2.0l pushrod engine making over 500whp that is still driveable on the street. It runs the 1/4 mile a second quicker than a Gallardo!
Many people will say that such a big turbo will make the car undriveable, but this is disproven with many cars. On the same note it has to be said that in Scandanavia as much is spent on the dyno as is spent on building the engine- often more, in fact.
Discuss.
Whats to discuss IMO ? Achieving 500+ these days from a 2.0, isnt a huge task. Turbo technology and engine tuning in general has moved on leaps and bounds in recent years. For the record, I'll give you guys a stereotype.
These guys are insane! Over there, the average tuned WWD Volvo is 5-600hp and the average RWD is not far behind.
Having spoken to a few guys (the Swedes are notoriously secretive until you get to know them) it seems that one of the things they consider crucial to big power is exhaust back pressure, or rather, the lack of it.
A turbo will always create back pressure, but if the turbo is too small the back pressure within the exhaust (and therefore the cylinder) can approach that of the intake charge pressure. Thre in-efficiency that this creates within the engine is obvious, but often overlooked.
The solution they've come to (in general) is to use truck turbos. Holset HX35, 40 and even 50's are common. I know of a 2.0l pushrod engine making over 500whp that is still driveable on the street. It runs the 1/4 mile a second quicker than a Gallardo!
Many people will say that such a big turbo will make the car undriveable, but this is disproven with many cars. On the same note it has to be said that in Scandanavia as much is spent on the dyno as is spent on building the engine- often more, in fact.
Discuss.
If you cant build a turbocharged engine that makes decent power, and is totally driveable on the street, then you shouldnt be near one in the first place !!!!
That is the beauty about forced induction. You can have everything !
But I do agree, for many years, the UK scene has been lagging behind. But thanks to foreign markets, the UK tuners are starting to learn and perform well too after seeing what they do.
Probably the slowest ones to catch on, are the Cossie guys. But after copying a lot of what the Scandanavians do, they are starting to get faster. They were probably stuck into their old ways, and old turbos more than any market.
As for the Dyno....all good and well. But time on a Dyno is only of use, if the person operating it and tuning the car knows what they are doing. Sadly, a lot of places in the UK are still lacking in this area.
I have to agree. I think we're generally using turbos that are too small. I stuck with my Cossie T3/4 but in the end it was restricting the exhaust flow. I've decided to use a Holset for the car I'm building now, as they're cheap and readily available from trucks and buses. The descision I have to make now is whether to use an HX35,40 or even a 50!
RazMan said:
With a heoooge turbo surely lag becomes a major issue. Wouldn't it be better to use twin turbos to make spooling up quicker and still allow big power?
This is the thinking in the UK, but it seems to stem from sizing the turbo to the engine size rather than the desired power output. If you want 500hp from a 2.3l four cylinder engine (as I do) then you're not going to suffer lag to the point of the vehicle being undriveable, but there is always a trade off. Also, there is the major factors of room and cooling. Twice the number of turbos and twice the amount of plumbing takes up a lot of space that most engine bays just can't accomodate.Look at it this way- in a boosted application (all things being equal) a given amount of gas will equate to a given amount of power (and yes, I'm really simplifying things here). If you want big power from a small engine then you will have to put up with a certain amount of lag as each turbo has an operating range. Some are broader than others, but you can't have the best of both worlds. Most modernish turbos have very broad compressor maps that eliminate a lot of the lag that turbos are historically known for from their early days of being fitted to production petrol engines.
What I've been assured is as important is exhaust back pressure, and that this is the area where we need to be looking. There will always be backpressure present in the turbine area or it would never spin, but when higher outputs are demanded then the gas volume goes up considerably. There comes a point where that gas pressure begins to cause some back up of cylinder gases because the turbine cannot process that volume, preventing efficient cylinder emptying and consequently causing poor filling. This all leads to a loss of efficiency, where in some cases you can see boost levels increasing put the power staying the same or even dropping. Often this is caused by insufficient cooling of the intake charge, but this is certainly not always the case.
BB-Q is it the 5 pot 2.3 you are looking to tune?? i heard they where a little fragile is that true?? the ford guys are getting them in the Focus ST so might be worht having a look what they are upto regards the turbos.
personally though i have seen lots of 2.3 Evos gunning for a similar figure. they tent to go for GT35r's. it used to be the GT30r's but then people started getting the same results, with a touch more lag, at lower presures thank to the turbo being more effiecnt at that flow rate/presure. so id looks for a turbo of similar size.
hope that helps.
Chris.
personally though i have seen lots of 2.3 Evos gunning for a similar figure. they tent to go for GT35r's. it used to be the GT30r's but then people started getting the same results, with a touch more lag, at lower presures thank to the turbo being more effiecnt at that flow rate/presure. so id looks for a turbo of similar size.
hope that helps.
Chris.
chuntington101 said:
BB-Q is it the 5 pot 2.3 you are looking to tune?? i heard they where a little fragile is that true?? the ford guys are getting them in the Focus ST so might be worht having a look what they are upto regards the turbos.
personally though i have seen lots of 2.3 Evos gunning for a similar figure. they tent to go for GT35r's. it used to be the GT30r's but then people started getting the same results, with a touch more lag, at lower presures thank to the turbo being more effiecnt at that flow rate/presure. so id looks for a turbo of similar size.
hope that helps.
Chris.
No, not that FWD toss! personally though i have seen lots of 2.3 Evos gunning for a similar figure. they tent to go for GT35r's. it used to be the GT30r's but then people started getting the same results, with a touch more lag, at lower presures thank to the turbo being more effiecnt at that flow rate/presure. so id looks for a turbo of similar size.
hope that helps.
Chris.
Those 5 pot are called whiteblocks. They can be made to produce serious power, but the rods are a little iffy above 300hp. Rods and Endyne pistons are available VERY reasonably priced from R Sport International in Portland, Oregon. Even taking into account shipping and customs charges they're half the price of UK stuff.
No, I'm talking about the redblock engine, which came in the 240, 740 & 940's. It's famously strong, and post 1993 engines got piston squirters too.
This talk of Garrett GT turbos is certainly a step in the right direction, but I don't understand spending £1k+ on a turbo when you can get the same result from a £100 truck turbo from a commercial scrappy (rebuild kits are $70 on Ebay). After all, that's where the GT series from Garrett originated.
Despite Holset's official line that their turbos are not suitable for petrol applications and will melt, it's been proven by thousands of enthusiasts that they're just fine. After all, the fastest street car in the world, Red Victor II, runs on twin Holsets, as does the fastest Volvo- the Hunchback- with both car running in the 7's.
BB-Q said:
chuntington101 said:
BB-Q is it the 5 pot 2.3 you are looking to tune?? i heard they where a little fragile is that true?? the ford guys are getting them in the Focus ST so might be worht having a look what they are upto regards the turbos.
personally though i have seen lots of 2.3 Evos gunning for a similar figure. they tent to go for GT35r's. it used to be the GT30r's but then people started getting the same results, with a touch more lag, at lower presures thank to the turbo being more effiecnt at that flow rate/presure. so id looks for a turbo of similar size.
hope that helps
Chris.
No, not that FWD toss! personally though i have seen lots of 2.3 Evos gunning for a similar figure. they tent to go for GT35r's. it used to be the GT30r's but then people started getting the same results, with a touch more lag, at lower presures thank to the turbo being more effiecnt at that flow rate/presure. so id looks for a turbo of similar size.
hope that helps
Chris.
Those 5 pot are called whiteblocks. They can be made to produce serious power, but the rods are a little iffy above 300hp. Rods and Endyne pistons are available VERY reasonably priced from R Sport International in Portland, Oregon. Even taking into account shipping and customs charges they're half the price of UK stuff.
No, I'm talking about the redblock engine, which came in the 240, 740 & 940's. It's famously strong, and post 1993 engines got piston squirters too.
This talk of Garrett GT turbos is certainly a step in the right direction, but I don't understand spending £1k+ on a turbo when you can get the same result from a £100 truck turbo from a commercial scrappy (rebuild kits are $70 on Ebay). After all, that's where the GT series from Garrett originated.
Despite Holset's official line that their turbos are not suitable for petrol applications and will melt, it's been proven by thousands of enthusiasts that they're just fine. After all, the fastest street car in the world, Red Victor II, runs on twin Holsets, as does the fastest Volvo- the Hunchback- with both car running in the 7's.
hmmmm now theres an idea! 2.5ltr 5pot cossy with a GT4094 turbo. now we are talking.
i know what you mena about the GTs mate. they are exspensive, but then you are getting what is concidered by some, the best turbos in the industry! i say get a holset and see what its like. there must be one similar to the GT35s.
thanks Chris.
I've no idea what the whiteblocks weigh, but the redblock I'm using weighs 350lbs without ancilliaries.
My machine shop commented on how similar the block was to a YB Cosworth one when I dropped it off. There's a an engineer/race engine builder who does work for me in Seattle who loves making stuff for these engines because they're so similar to his beloved Cossie! I'm using the bottom end from a normal 740/940 turbo and the rare 16v head from a 740/940 (these heads have been proven to flow enough hair for 600hp stock including stock cams!). Also involved are custom, longer then stock h beam rods and shorter, lighter forged pistons. Got a pic somewhere. Crank is standard as is the rest of the bottom end, apart from sump and oil pump mods to allow the engine to sit upright rather than slanted. Inlet and exhaust manifolds will be made by me. Engine management will be courtesy of Megasquirt. A lot of the bits have come from my 940, which got a two page feature in PPC.
Rear end is a Ford 8.8" from an Explorer, narrowed to suit, gearbox will be T5 when I can finally find one for sensible money, brakes are Wilwoods all round.
The engine is going in my 1968 Volvo 142 (very rare two door saloon), which will be my cruising/drag racing car.
I've been trying to set up my website to document the build, as us Volvo fetishists are a rare breed and need the internet to communicate. Unfortunately, after buying my domain name and hosting and making my website I'm unable to get the damned thing to work! I think I confused my abilities with my ambitions- I'd best stick to cars in future!!!!!
Need to find a T5 gearbox to mate to it though- anyone got one going really cheap for an impoverished hot rodder?!
My machine shop commented on how similar the block was to a YB Cosworth one when I dropped it off. There's a an engineer/race engine builder who does work for me in Seattle who loves making stuff for these engines because they're so similar to his beloved Cossie! I'm using the bottom end from a normal 740/940 turbo and the rare 16v head from a 740/940 (these heads have been proven to flow enough hair for 600hp stock including stock cams!). Also involved are custom, longer then stock h beam rods and shorter, lighter forged pistons. Got a pic somewhere. Crank is standard as is the rest of the bottom end, apart from sump and oil pump mods to allow the engine to sit upright rather than slanted. Inlet and exhaust manifolds will be made by me. Engine management will be courtesy of Megasquirt. A lot of the bits have come from my 940, which got a two page feature in PPC.
Rear end is a Ford 8.8" from an Explorer, narrowed to suit, gearbox will be T5 when I can finally find one for sensible money, brakes are Wilwoods all round.
The engine is going in my 1968 Volvo 142 (very rare two door saloon), which will be my cruising/drag racing car.
I've been trying to set up my website to document the build, as us Volvo fetishists are a rare breed and need the internet to communicate. Unfortunately, after buying my domain name and hosting and making my website I'm unable to get the damned thing to work! I think I confused my abilities with my ambitions- I'd best stick to cars in future!!!!!
Need to find a T5 gearbox to mate to it though- anyone got one going really cheap for an impoverished hot rodder?!
BB-Q said:
I've no idea what the whiteblocks weigh, but the redblock I'm using weighs 350lbs without ancilliaries.
My machine shop commented on how similar the block was to a YB Cosworth one when I dropped it off. There's a an engineer/race engine builder who does work for me in Seattle who loves making stuff for these engines because they're so similar to his beloved Cossie! I'm using the bottom end from a normal 740/940 turbo and the rare 16v head from a 740/940 (these heads have been proven to flow enough hair for 600hp stock including stock cams!). Also involved are custom, longer then stock h beam rods and shorter, lighter forged pistons. Got a pic somewhere. Crank is standard as is the rest of the bottom end, apart from sump and oil pump mods to allow the engine to sit upright rather than slanted. Inlet and exhaust manifolds will be made by me. Engine management will be courtesy of Megasquirt. A lot of the bits have come from my 940, which got a two page feature in PPC.
Rear end is a Ford 8.8" from an Explorer, narrowed to suit, gearbox will be T5 when I can finally find one for sensible money, brakes are Wilwoods all round.
The engine is going in my 1968 Volvo 142 (very rare two door saloon), which will be my cruising/drag racing car.
I've been trying to set up my website to document the build, as us Volvo fetishists are a rare breed and need the internet to communicate. Unfortunately, after buying my domain name and hosting and making my website I'm unable to get the damned thing to work! I think I confused my abilities with my ambitions- I'd best stick to cars in future!!!!!
Need to find a T5 gearbox to mate to it though- anyone got one going really cheap for an impoverished hot rodder?!
nice project mate! i rember the Volvo in PPC. wasn't it maing about 400bhp??? My machine shop commented on how similar the block was to a YB Cosworth one when I dropped it off. There's a an engineer/race engine builder who does work for me in Seattle who loves making stuff for these engines because they're so similar to his beloved Cossie! I'm using the bottom end from a normal 740/940 turbo and the rare 16v head from a 740/940 (these heads have been proven to flow enough hair for 600hp stock including stock cams!). Also involved are custom, longer then stock h beam rods and shorter, lighter forged pistons. Got a pic somewhere. Crank is standard as is the rest of the bottom end, apart from sump and oil pump mods to allow the engine to sit upright rather than slanted. Inlet and exhaust manifolds will be made by me. Engine management will be courtesy of Megasquirt. A lot of the bits have come from my 940, which got a two page feature in PPC.
Rear end is a Ford 8.8" from an Explorer, narrowed to suit, gearbox will be T5 when I can finally find one for sensible money, brakes are Wilwoods all round.
The engine is going in my 1968 Volvo 142 (very rare two door saloon), which will be my cruising/drag racing car.
I've been trying to set up my website to document the build, as us Volvo fetishists are a rare breed and need the internet to communicate. Unfortunately, after buying my domain name and hosting and making my website I'm unable to get the damned thing to work! I think I confused my abilities with my ambitions- I'd best stick to cars in future!!!!!
Need to find a T5 gearbox to mate to it though- anyone got one going really cheap for an impoverished hot rodder?!
cna i ask why you are going to a ford 8.8 rear end?? i hear they have an offset diff?? why not use a 240's rear axel?? i hear (according to a mad sweed on the cover of this months PPC lol) they are bomb proof!
hope you get the site up nd working soon. be nice to see some pics of the project!
Chris.
chuntington101 said:
nice project mate! i rember the Volvo in PPC. wasn't it maing about 400bhp???
cna i ask why you are going to a ford 8.8 rear end?? i hear they have an offset diff?? why not use a 240's rear axel?? i hear (according to a mad sweed on the cover of this months PPC lol) they are bomb proof!
hope you get the site up nd working soon. be nice to see some pics of the project!
Chris.
The 400hp was a conservative estimate of what the 16v would make (when I knew a bit less than I know now about that prticular conversion). Also, if there's one thing you can rely on with PPC, it's innacurate editorial. For example, the 960 turbo that everyone's after in Sweden for tuning (mentioned in the Amazon feature)doesn't exist!My car had an 8v in which was calculated to make 250ish hp according to calculations from the boost levels and fuel injector duty cycles (never got a chance to dyno it).cna i ask why you are going to a ford 8.8 rear end?? i hear they have an offset diff?? why not use a 240's rear axel?? i hear (according to a mad sweed on the cover of this months PPC lol) they are bomb proof!
hope you get the site up nd working soon. be nice to see some pics of the project!
Chris.
That Amazon, beautiful though it is, is a show car. Mine will be receiving drag launches off a triple plate clutch- which will break a 240 axle. A friend of mine in Norway has snapped three halfshafts in his 240 with about 300hp and his is only driven on the street (welded diff though)!
WOW sorry for sounding like such a tw*t BB-Q! lol bl**dy mags telling me the wrong stuff agian. lol
have you thought about the Ford 9inch?? i know they are bomb broof cos thats what all the US guys use for there drag cars.
keep us posted on how it gose though mate. i allways find these builds really intresting.
also is there anywhere were an idiot like me could get some info on Volvo tuning??
thanks Chris.
have you thought about the Ford 9inch?? i know they are bomb broof cos thats what all the US guys use for there drag cars.
keep us posted on how it gose though mate. i allways find these builds really intresting.
also is there anywhere were an idiot like me could get some info on Volvo tuning??
thanks Chris.
chuntington101 said:
WOW sorry for sounding like such a tw*t BB-Q! lol bl**dy mags telling me the wrong stuff agian. lol
have you thought about the Ford 9inch?? i know they are bomb broof cos thats what all the US guys use for there drag cars.
keep us posted on how it gose though mate. i allways find these builds really intresting.
also is there anywhere were an idiot like me could get some info on Volvo tuning??
thanks Chris.
chris, for tuning try coming over to turbobricks.com and chat over there. We're just getting round to accepting that FWd is maybe not the mortal enemy, although the site is predominently RWD. have you thought about the Ford 9inch?? i know they are bomb broof cos thats what all the US guys use for there drag cars.
keep us posted on how it gose though mate. i allways find these builds really intresting.
also is there anywhere were an idiot like me could get some info on Volvo tuning??
thanks Chris.
One of the moderators has an 850 with over 400 at the wheels, and you can get pistons and rods from some a couple of people on there.
As for the Ford 9", try finding one nowadays! I'd gladly use one, but they're in short supply which in turn will put them out of my budget.
The 8.8" should be strong enough for my needs as I don't envisage ever getting much past 600hp, and turbo 4 pots don't make v8 torque.
It was also £134 delivered to my door with factory LSD and uprated carboon clutch packs are only £50 on Ebay USa.
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