Intercooler pipework size...
Discussion
Well we had some quotes for a custom made intercooler to the right size that were quite scary. Just the cores seemed silly expensive.
These intercoolers are a bargain really, so even with a bit of work I'm sure it could be improved.
One big improvement would be 2" exits rather than 3", saving money on expensive silicone bend reducers.
Hey ho, still gonna be cheap and effective. In the interests of intercooler performance analysis I intend to record boost and temp drop though, for reference for others
Problem now is my list of sensors wanted is growing
Dave
These intercoolers are a bargain really, so even with a bit of work I'm sure it could be improved.
One big improvement would be 2" exits rather than 3", saving money on expensive silicone bend reducers.
Hey ho, still gonna be cheap and effective. In the interests of intercooler performance analysis I intend to record boost and temp drop though, for reference for others
Problem now is my list of sensors wanted is growing
Dave
stevieturbo said:
Just hope the sensor doesnt break
Thats been my worry Will stick the gauge in via the EGR bit I think, I don't mind butchering that.
I think the temps will be ok, just want to see what it is at as a reference point really.
Just need an oil temp too, just to see what that will run at, with the turbo working fairly hard it'll probably dump a fair bit of heat into the oil...
Dave
Turbo wont be working that hard.....diesel EGT's dont get as high as petrols.
You could stick a thermocouple into the sump and read it on one of the channels of the TC-4.
Despite possible risk of sensor breakage, which is probably small in a diesel....if using it for tuning, the only place is before the turbo.
Ive had one slapped into my Volvo diesel for months now, and it seems to be hanging in there.
You could stick a thermocouple into the sump and read it on one of the channels of the TC-4.
Despite possible risk of sensor breakage, which is probably small in a diesel....if using it for tuning, the only place is before the turbo.
Ive had one slapped into my Volvo diesel for months now, and it seems to be hanging in there.
I got a few compressor maps for the GT15 and K03 used on my car, and the demand curves appear to be roughly what remapped 1.8T Golf's are running from their K03's when going from 150 > 190bhp or so... and they run petrol temp EGT's I suppose, and seem to be fairly reliable
So do you think oil temperature is worth monitoring? I know that some tuners will offer 150bhp remaps for the HDi110, which is almost identical to the HDi90, and they don't appear to be blowing up because of hot oil
I'm also sure the 2.2 HDi uses the same block with a new crank, and that appears to operate with a remap to 175bhp straight off, so assuming the standard donut engine coolant heat exchanger under the filter is doing a good enough job on these engines
Dave
So do you think oil temperature is worth monitoring? I know that some tuners will offer 150bhp remaps for the HDi110, which is almost identical to the HDi90, and they don't appear to be blowing up because of hot oil
I'm also sure the 2.2 HDi uses the same block with a new crank, and that appears to operate with a remap to 175bhp straight off, so assuming the standard donut engine coolant heat exchanger under the filter is doing a good enough job on these engines
Dave
stevieturbo said:
From what I understand of diesels. And AFR gauge is pointless.
Its all about EGT.
Correct, when people said just increase the fuel and add boost till the smoke stops, they aren't far wrong haha.Its all about EGT.
I'd see what the standard EGT is when on full boost in a high gear, then add 10% and make the engine run as best you can at that temp before seeing what power it makes.
Dave!
Howitzer said:
stevieturbo said:
From what I understand of diesels. And AFR gauge is pointless.
Its all about EGT.
Correct, when people said just increase the fuel and add boost till the smoke stops, they aren't far wrong haha.Its all about EGT.
I'd see what the standard EGT is when on full boost in a high gear, then add 10% and make the engine run as best you can at that temp before seeing what power it makes.
Dave!
How do these tractors used for competition pulling go on then, with their solid black stacks of smoke?
I'm guessing they run water or something to cool it right down, so althought it's blowing black the EGT might actually be quite low??
Can't wait to go see them this year at Pickering
Dave
I'm guessing they run water or something to cool it right down, so althought it's blowing black the EGT might actually be quite low??
Can't wait to go see them this year at Pickering
Dave
Mr Whippy said:
I'm guessing they run water or something to cool it right down, so althought it's blowing black the EGT might actually be quite low??
How long do they run for? They could survive for a thousand revolutions or so on thermal inertia. If it's anything like a dragster engine, that's all it needs.Mr Whippy said:
How do these tractors used for competition pulling go on then, with their solid black stacks of smoke?
I'm guessing they run water or something to cool it right down, so althought it's blowing black the EGT might actually be quite low??
Can't wait to go see them this year at Pickering
Dave
Im sure the guys tuning tractor pullers know a lot more about it than me. I'm guessing they run water or something to cool it right down, so althought it's blowing black the EGT might actually be quite low??
Can't wait to go see them this year at Pickering
Dave
Suffice to say, if you are seen driving around with clouds of smoke behind you....if it doesnt blow up, you will get nabbed by the police. At least over here you would anyway.
Mr Whippy said:
Maybe 15 seconds is a good run.
It'd make sense I guess, since they will be running dinnerplate turbo's, and possibly sub-ambient charge temps with ice filled chargecoolers...
Will have to have a chat this year if I get the chance to go, might give me a few tips and tricks
Dave
they also run VERY low comp ratio, think i heard 9.0-1 from one guy!! this is why you see them sat on the line at full throttle but the revs rising slowly. its because they cant get the heat into the chambers to completely burn the diesel. It'd make sense I guess, since they will be running dinnerplate turbo's, and possibly sub-ambient charge temps with ice filled chargecoolers...
Will have to have a chat this year if I get the chance to go, might give me a few tips and tricks
Dave
there is a thread on ls1tech about one diesel tractor puller. i will try and find it. think he is running 240psi boost presure. probably uuseing stainless steeel piping just like you are!!
Chris.
Mr Whippy said:
I'm also sure the 2.2 HDi uses the same block with a new crank, and that appears to operate with a remap to 175bhp straight off, so assuming the standard donut engine coolant heat exchanger under the filter is doing a good enough job on these engines
Dave
hmmmm are there many people doing the 2.2 engine swap into the 306's Dave??? sounds like the easiest way to more power....Dave
Chris.
I'm not sure, I was having a good nosey on the Peugeot servicebox last night at the parts, so may have to have a look to see if the 2.2 fits
In theory it's the same block (wrt to mountings), just the gearbox might be different, so I'd have to get the gearbox, and that'd mean hydraulic clutch (not a biggie), and maybe exhaust issues where it joins up and goes down.
Either way, I'm sure it'd all go in, next job is just finding one as they seem relatively rare.
Same ECU as mine, maps look same inside, so it'd just be swapping immobiliser code over onto new ECU, loom should be very very similar if not the same
Still would need an intercooler though, so at least the £300 ish fitting it all in at the front with slimline fans and pipes etc won't be wasted if I do go to the 2.2 route in the future
Anyway, got the intercooler. This one is a tad different inside the end tank. It's clearly got a seperator flap between the connection pipes...
Only problem is on this one, that the flap meets dead down the middle of a core entry point. Now, there are loads more to go at (about 8 each side), but the other landed nicely between two core intakes and looked fairly tight up, with maybe 8 one side, 9 the other.
Am I likely to suffer any nasty flow issues with that the way it is, or will air just tend to stagnate around that pipe... afterall, it's right at the edge of the flap anyway so air flow to that one wouldn't be huge anyway... I could always poke an ally welding rod in there and put a bead down, but not sure it's worth it... they were not the most expensive intercoolers so wasn't expecting a beauty, but I think it'll do it's job
Main thing is it's fairly heavy so loads of thermal capacity, and my friend is running upto 150bhp happily so can't be too bad.
Dave
In theory it's the same block (wrt to mountings), just the gearbox might be different, so I'd have to get the gearbox, and that'd mean hydraulic clutch (not a biggie), and maybe exhaust issues where it joins up and goes down.
Either way, I'm sure it'd all go in, next job is just finding one as they seem relatively rare.
Same ECU as mine, maps look same inside, so it'd just be swapping immobiliser code over onto new ECU, loom should be very very similar if not the same
Still would need an intercooler though, so at least the £300 ish fitting it all in at the front with slimline fans and pipes etc won't be wasted if I do go to the 2.2 route in the future
Anyway, got the intercooler. This one is a tad different inside the end tank. It's clearly got a seperator flap between the connection pipes...
Only problem is on this one, that the flap meets dead down the middle of a core entry point. Now, there are loads more to go at (about 8 each side), but the other landed nicely between two core intakes and looked fairly tight up, with maybe 8 one side, 9 the other.
Am I likely to suffer any nasty flow issues with that the way it is, or will air just tend to stagnate around that pipe... afterall, it's right at the edge of the flap anyway so air flow to that one wouldn't be huge anyway... I could always poke an ally welding rod in there and put a bead down, but not sure it's worth it... they were not the most expensive intercoolers so wasn't expecting a beauty, but I think it'll do it's job
Main thing is it's fairly heavy so loads of thermal capacity, and my friend is running upto 150bhp happily so can't be too bad.
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Monday 21st April 09:27
Dave, sorry to hear about the intercooler not being like your mates. logic say it would be a big problem though. could this be a good time to cut the old inlet and outlet tanks off and make your own?? then you could have the 2inch inlet/outlets you wanted.
alternatively run it and see!
be nice if the 2.2 was a drop in, even if you have to use the box! are the ehads the same?? just thinking you could run the manifold and turbo off the 1.9HDI then. what size turbo do the 2.2's use?? could there be a easy upgrade for the 1.9 guys??
cheers
Chris.
alternatively run it and see!
be nice if the 2.2 was a drop in, even if you have to use the box! are the ehads the same?? just thinking you could run the manifold and turbo off the 1.9HDI then. what size turbo do the 2.2's use?? could there be a easy upgrade for the 1.9 guys??
cheers
Chris.
The 2.2 uses an early VNT (rather than vanes, it occludes the turbine wheel with a collar that is pushed forward and back along the axis of the turbine)
It's a much better unit though in practice than what is on the 2.0 HDi. The fact it flows for 136bhp and 2.2 litres standard suggests it's potential, and the VNT gives it much better low-end performance.
I think it's a simple fit, just trying to figure out if they did an 8v flavour, or 16v only... I've seen 16v ones, but ideally I'd want an 8v one because it'd almost certainly fit in no problems at all, and I'm sure they did an 8v flavour one in the 406's...
Either way, if I hit 160bhp and 250lbft with what I have, I can't think the car will be wanting with it's relatively short gearing and low weight
That said, you can never have enough, but at the same time I don't want to blow loads of money and time getting another 20bhp... and anything more than that is just silly in a fwd imho. Gonna start munching CV joints, P bushes lasting 5000 miles, tyres lasting about 5000 miles, engine mounts ripping off
I dunno, might be fun, but a big step up in costs maybe?
I *think* the cooler will be ok. Had another look. At one side the gap is very small into that row on the cooler. My plan is to put a bead of araldyte down that side (hopefully it'll not break up or fail due to the temp fluctuations), and then it'll force it down the existing rows, and then the partly occluded row will be used for the return flow.
So question is, will araldyte suffice? Maybe some localised heating of the part via the intake hole and apply some ally welding rod?
It might however be totally fine, I can't see a small leak being a huge issue when the CFM rises it's gonna go the way it is intended to
We have two intercoolers anyway, the other is better than this one wrt to that issue. It's for a 405 Td project car (Mi16 > 1.9 Td), so there is clearly some variability in the finish of the product.
Dave
It's a much better unit though in practice than what is on the 2.0 HDi. The fact it flows for 136bhp and 2.2 litres standard suggests it's potential, and the VNT gives it much better low-end performance.
I think it's a simple fit, just trying to figure out if they did an 8v flavour, or 16v only... I've seen 16v ones, but ideally I'd want an 8v one because it'd almost certainly fit in no problems at all, and I'm sure they did an 8v flavour one in the 406's...
Either way, if I hit 160bhp and 250lbft with what I have, I can't think the car will be wanting with it's relatively short gearing and low weight
That said, you can never have enough, but at the same time I don't want to blow loads of money and time getting another 20bhp... and anything more than that is just silly in a fwd imho. Gonna start munching CV joints, P bushes lasting 5000 miles, tyres lasting about 5000 miles, engine mounts ripping off
I dunno, might be fun, but a big step up in costs maybe?
I *think* the cooler will be ok. Had another look. At one side the gap is very small into that row on the cooler. My plan is to put a bead of araldyte down that side (hopefully it'll not break up or fail due to the temp fluctuations), and then it'll force it down the existing rows, and then the partly occluded row will be used for the return flow.
So question is, will araldyte suffice? Maybe some localised heating of the part via the intake hole and apply some ally welding rod?
It might however be totally fine, I can't see a small leak being a huge issue when the CFM rises it's gonna go the way it is intended to
We have two intercoolers anyway, the other is better than this one wrt to that issue. It's for a 405 Td project car (Mi16 > 1.9 Td), so there is clearly some variability in the finish of the product.
Dave
Dave, just thinking about the turbo, do you think the VAG 1.9 TDI turbo would bolt up?? thats a VNT to and they seem to work pretty well and would be cheap. also you cna get hybrid turbos that will flow alot more air if you needed! i have seen these Diesels make over 200bhp.
just a thought,
Cheers
Chris.
just a thought,
Cheers
Chris.
Not too sure really, it's quite cramped behind the engine on a 306 HDi.
Another issue is controlling the VNT. My ECU software doesn't have VNT support, so the best I could achieve is having the VNT operated using manifold boost, which is an ok half way house
I think the 2.2 HDi turbo would be the best bet, it's early VNT, has Peugeot manifold > head fitment (pretty sure), and the exhaust downpipe location/angle has to be damn close...
First step is getting this one intercooled and see where I can get it.
Did some testing last night and my current turbo is good for hitting peak torque from about 1900rpm which really isn't bad at all, I think with the intercooler and higher EGT I might be able to get it sooner still (maybe 1700rpm)
My friends is already making 7psi at 1300rpm which I think is damn good already, so not too sure on the out and out benefit of VNT. Of course it's main advantage is running a turbine for high power, but with smaller turbine low-speed response, but since the turbo is good for about 150-160bhp and that being my intial target and where the stock injectors run out of puff, it seems ok to just stick with what I have.... for now
Next job might be a 2.2 HDi VNT, but will probably buy a HDi with a broken engine to do that to first, make sure it all works
Dave
Another issue is controlling the VNT. My ECU software doesn't have VNT support, so the best I could achieve is having the VNT operated using manifold boost, which is an ok half way house
I think the 2.2 HDi turbo would be the best bet, it's early VNT, has Peugeot manifold > head fitment (pretty sure), and the exhaust downpipe location/angle has to be damn close...
First step is getting this one intercooled and see where I can get it.
Did some testing last night and my current turbo is good for hitting peak torque from about 1900rpm which really isn't bad at all, I think with the intercooler and higher EGT I might be able to get it sooner still (maybe 1700rpm)
My friends is already making 7psi at 1300rpm which I think is damn good already, so not too sure on the out and out benefit of VNT. Of course it's main advantage is running a turbine for high power, but with smaller turbine low-speed response, but since the turbo is good for about 150-160bhp and that being my intial target and where the stock injectors run out of puff, it seems ok to just stick with what I have.... for now
Next job might be a 2.2 HDi VNT, but will probably buy a HDi with a broken engine to do that to first, make sure it all works
Dave
Edited by Mr Whippy on Thursday 24th April 14:21
Gassing Station | Engines & Drivetrain | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff