Engine Management Solutions
Discussion
My goal is peek power at 7000rpm with ability to rev to 7500rpm.
I have an M3 thats a stright 6 and 3.2L and this revs for hell and can go past 7500rpm.... and my V12 is sort of two of these put together... in fact BMW m division put two M3 heads on this basic engine and got 660bhp for Mclaren to use.
The std engine appears to be de-tuned..... as case in point is the engine I stripped (bought for 10.51p off ebay), now this engine had obviously done loads of miles, but the alloy bores were hardly marked. Also the std cams can be reved to 7000rpm without mods.
One thing I had wondered is if there was a way to test the components to destruction individually.... I have 3 of these V12 engines so I have plent of spares going to use.
I have an M3 thats a stright 6 and 3.2L and this revs for hell and can go past 7500rpm.... and my V12 is sort of two of these put together... in fact BMW m division put two M3 heads on this basic engine and got 660bhp for Mclaren to use.
The std engine appears to be de-tuned..... as case in point is the engine I stripped (bought for 10.51p off ebay), now this engine had obviously done loads of miles, but the alloy bores were hardly marked. Also the std cams can be reved to 7000rpm without mods.
One thing I had wondered is if there was a way to test the components to destruction individually.... I have 3 of these V12 engines so I have plent of spares going to use.
10.5p
Did you say pence ?????
I think easiest way to test to destrcution, is simply to build a std motor, and turbocharge it like you intend, without spending any money on it internally.
If you need to lower the CR, you could possibly remove some material from the piston crown, use thicker head gaskets, or enlarge the combustion chamber. Im not a big fan of people altering combustion chambers though.
Then if something breaks or lets go, you know what to uprate for the next engine. Given you have 3 of them, that shouldnt be a problem to take the risk.
The rpm thing will be the hardest to achieve. Dont forge the M3 has variable valve timing too.
If you can get the right cam, and make the heads breathe, then you could get the rpm's you want.
I still dont get this alloy bore thing ?? You mean there is no iron liner at all ???
Did you say pence ?????
I think easiest way to test to destrcution, is simply to build a std motor, and turbocharge it like you intend, without spending any money on it internally.
If you need to lower the CR, you could possibly remove some material from the piston crown, use thicker head gaskets, or enlarge the combustion chamber. Im not a big fan of people altering combustion chambers though.
Then if something breaks or lets go, you know what to uprate for the next engine. Given you have 3 of them, that shouldnt be a problem to take the risk.
The rpm thing will be the hardest to achieve. Dont forge the M3 has variable valve timing too.
If you can get the right cam, and make the heads breathe, then you could get the rpm's you want.
I still dont get this alloy bore thing ?? You mean there is no iron liner at all ???
stevieturbo said:
I still dont get this alloy bore thing ?? You mean there is no iron liner at all ???
Correct: there is no iron liner.
And the material used is the nicasil process as developed by Porsche.
Porsche wanted to get rid of the liners, and have the pistons running directly on the alloy.
Process: When you have the poured alloy block, at some stage during machining (forgot when) the bores are etched (as opposed to insert a liner). The material left can handle the necessary friction (provide minimal 'lubrication' as is standard with iron) with the pistons without damage to them, and leaves 'room' for oil to remain. The main problem of nicasil is 'lubrication' during start-up and at the top of the bore.
The principle has been perfectioned and is now standard with Porsche and others. Key to a good engine is the combination of nicasil and pistons/piston rings. But if you get it wrong (latest M3 engines first runs), it will go horribly wrong and you wished you had used liners.
Rob
stevieturbo said:
10.5p
Did you say pence ?????
I think easiest way to test to destrcution, is simply to build a std motor, and turbocharge it like you intend, without spending any money on it internally.
If you need to lower the CR, you could possibly remove some material from the piston crown, use thicker head gaskets, or enlarge the combustion chamber. Im not a big fan of people altering combustion chambers though.
Then if something breaks or lets go, you know what to uprate for the next engine. Given you have 3 of them, that shouldnt be a problem to take the risk.
The rpm thing will be the hardest to achieve. Dont forge the M3 has variable valve timing too.
If you can get the right cam, and make the heads breathe, then you could get the rpm's you want.
I still dont get this alloy bore thing ?? You mean there is no iron liner at all ???
actually I meant pounds.... and I think the bores are alusil rather than nicalsil, have no idea of the difference though, but they are finished cast alloy.
I know my M3 has double vanos But I don't think I will need anything like that as my car will be considerably lighter than my M3 AND I have twice the engine.... I'm in danger of having too much torque and sending it all up in smoke.
My Ultima had 500bhp and a cam that could go to 7500rpm (peaked at 6100rpm) from a SBC and that had more than enough torque down low for the car.
Not keen on the see if it blows up idea.... I will have put a lot of money into this engine even if I don't do the bottom end last thing I want is to loose the lot after all if a piston breaks up it will all end up going through the turbo.
I never intended this to be a true budget build... only a build with a budget, and I only had 3.5k in it for the long engine build, it looks like 3 times that if I go the full monty with bespoke crank etc.
At least it'll still be cheaper than the 150k for the F1 engine.
But you don't need to spend that amount of money to go fast. Even if you spend plenty it will still break once you find it's weakness. I'd fit a decent set or rod bolts, a good set of rings, yours may be chromium, good gaskets and then maybe play with the cam timing. If, with good management, intercooling or charge cooling you can get 15 psi for short events then it will be excellent. It's only if you plan to use sustained high boost that you will have to spend money. I'm assuming that the stock pistons aren't crap as standard. If you spent shedloads on this engine it won't make you go faster if the roads won't allow it. Also if you don't use big boost you will be able to retain a lot of the existing components, especially in the fuelling department. You will also have 2 'replica' engines available as spares.
My 2 cents
My 2 centsEven if the pistons are crap, surely it would be an easy job to get a replacement forged set made, to use std rings.
That shouldnt cost too much from somewhere like Ross Pistons.
As for getting a crank made. Unless the crank is an extremely poor design, I wouldnt even consider such a move given the expense.
I would agree, that rod bolts, would make sense on an otherwise std engine. Or getting 12 custom rods made to suit. It would cost a bit, but may be worthwhile.
But, given you have 2 spare engines, I'd break one first, before spending any silly amounts of money.
What sort of car is it going in, and why the need for such high rpm's ? Or is it simply a case of you wanting it to rev so high ? If so, then fair enough, but it will be the single biggest cause of stress on the engine.
Making the power reliably is pretty easy. Making it rev wont be.
That shouldnt cost too much from somewhere like Ross Pistons.
As for getting a crank made. Unless the crank is an extremely poor design, I wouldnt even consider such a move given the expense.
I would agree, that rod bolts, would make sense on an otherwise std engine. Or getting 12 custom rods made to suit. It would cost a bit, but may be worthwhile.
But, given you have 2 spare engines, I'd break one first, before spending any silly amounts of money.
What sort of car is it going in, and why the need for such high rpm's ? Or is it simply a case of you wanting it to rev so high ? If so, then fair enough, but it will be the single biggest cause of stress on the engine.
Making the power reliably is pretty easy. Making it rev wont be.
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