Which way to jump engine mods 5.7 LS1?
Discussion
I have been saving up to sort the Monaro out powerwise for some time now and I am rapidly approaching the point where I can seriously start to think about actually committing.
I am just not sure which way to jump and whichever way I go it’s going to cost so I need to make sure I do the right thing by me.
I’d like some opinions as to what would be best (NA v FI) for me and my circumstances. I’m not interested in stirring up an argument about which is best per se.
I will never forge the internals and I am not interested competing with the car over the quarter mile or 1 mile or achieve ultimate top speed. I will do the odd track day so being able to show a clean pair of heels to other quick cars on corner exit or on a drag down a straight is the motivation for seeking more power as well as being able to translate this to road driving. General usage is dry weekend only, early in the morning or whenever the roads are quiet so no sitting in traffic jams. Reliability is key, I don’t want a car that breaks.
So, the choice is NA – heads and cam or FI. What do all you wise people suggest? I’d be interested in specifics too regards type of charger/boost or heads cam spec etc
I am just not sure which way to jump and whichever way I go it’s going to cost so I need to make sure I do the right thing by me.
I’d like some opinions as to what would be best (NA v FI) for me and my circumstances. I’m not interested in stirring up an argument about which is best per se.
I will never forge the internals and I am not interested competing with the car over the quarter mile or 1 mile or achieve ultimate top speed. I will do the odd track day so being able to show a clean pair of heels to other quick cars on corner exit or on a drag down a straight is the motivation for seeking more power as well as being able to translate this to road driving. General usage is dry weekend only, early in the morning or whenever the roads are quiet so no sitting in traffic jams. Reliability is key, I don’t want a car that breaks.
So, the choice is NA – heads and cam or FI. What do all you wise people suggest? I’d be interested in specifics too regards type of charger/boost or heads cam spec etc
Speaking from experience I'd say set a power level and work towards it. Absolute must is heads, cam and exhaust. When you've done that, 9psi of PD boost will probably as much as you need.
Just strapping a blower on to an LS1 doesn't work that well as there are other bottle necks highlighted above.
The car really comes alive when you make it breathe better. You might also want to think about a bigger throttle body.
Just strapping a blower on to an LS1 doesn't work that well as there are other bottle necks highlighted above.
The car really comes alive when you make it breathe better. You might also want to think about a bigger throttle body.
I think try before you buy
A low boost intercooled LS1 will give you all you need if you like driving off the bottom, which is where the CV8 usually is due to the long gearing it has.
NA will give the car more zing at the higher rev ranges. Totally different IMO. For me as a daily driver it would be PD all the way.
So get your ass in someone elses car and make your own mind up as you are the only one who can
Eta there are plenty of stock LS1's running intercoolers and PD blowers at 6psi that are as right as rain. (before the doommongerers start in
) ask around!!!!!!!
I would use a 112 over a 122 if it were me as the 112 will give better torque.
You can run quite happily through cast headers with no power loss.
Heads and cam could work out cheaper, provided you do the work yourself, but a SH 112 will aslo be as cheap as chips now too.
A low boost intercooled LS1 will give you all you need if you like driving off the bottom, which is where the CV8 usually is due to the long gearing it has.
NA will give the car more zing at the higher rev ranges. Totally different IMO. For me as a daily driver it would be PD all the way.
So get your ass in someone elses car and make your own mind up as you are the only one who can
Eta there are plenty of stock LS1's running intercoolers and PD blowers at 6psi that are as right as rain. (before the doommongerers start in
) ask around!!!!!!! I would use a 112 over a 122 if it were me as the 112 will give better torque.
You can run quite happily through cast headers with no power loss.
Heads and cam could work out cheaper, provided you do the work yourself, but a SH 112 will aslo be as cheap as chips now too.
Edited by crisisjez on Monday 26th April 18:56
As Wormus says, decide on your power requirement first.
Then your useable rpm range, idle quality etc
You may find your decisions push you a certain way.
No point talking about NA if you want 500rwhp with an LS1 because its not possible. Well maybe it is, but not without a 9000rpm redline, insanity cam, drainpipe heads and a 1200rpm idle with rubbish fuel economy.
TerryS has 500rwhp with mild heads, cam and centrifugal blower in his LS1. His is a pretty intensive effort though.
If I were you Id be looking at a 454lsx 675fwhp easy! No change from £15k though!
Then your useable rpm range, idle quality etc
You may find your decisions push you a certain way.
No point talking about NA if you want 500rwhp with an LS1 because its not possible. Well maybe it is, but not without a 9000rpm redline, insanity cam, drainpipe heads and a 1200rpm idle with rubbish fuel economy.
TerryS has 500rwhp with mild heads, cam and centrifugal blower in his LS1. His is a pretty intensive effort though.
If I were you Id be looking at a 454lsx
675fwhp easy! No change from £15k though!Saying what power you want is not always easy as you dont know how it will drive with X amount of BHP.
Personally id look at what the overall budget is and how you want to drive the car. As mentioned above if you like to laze around on the torque the PD blower is definately the way forward, if not and you want to rev it alot then go N/A, the latter option could be more fun to you but not to other people, all a personal choice!
Personally id look at what the overall budget is and how you want to drive the car. As mentioned above if you like to laze around on the torque the PD blower is definately the way forward, if not and you want to rev it alot then go N/A, the latter option could be more fun to you but not to other people, all a personal choice!
I had a 122 on an otherwise standard LS1 and while the torque was amazing (about 500lbs) it ran out of puff above 5000rpm. It was like driving a diesel! Fine for most situations but lacking top end when trying to prove a point.
As soon as a heads , cam and headers and TB were added it transformed the car. It had about 550ish whp which is all you really need. Felt proper fast with brilliant throttle response. I should have stopped there.
As soon as a heads , cam and headers and TB were added it transformed the car. It had about 550ish whp which is all you really need. Felt proper fast with brilliant throttle response. I should have stopped there.
Not sure why 400rwftlb NA is no good off idle, which is what my engine does/did
But yeah, go for a drive in some different cars. Ive driven a couple of PD cars and know they are no good for me (and in general IMO)
Ive also driven a Centri L98 car with more power than mine... I still prefer the NA. Others however prefer inefficiency and complexity
Gareth has both.
But yeah, go for a drive in some different cars. Ive driven a couple of PD cars and know they are no good for me (and in general IMO)
Ive also driven a Centri L98 car with more power than mine... I still prefer the NA. Others however prefer inefficiency and complexity
Gareth has both.
I have had the 3.9:1 diff fitted as I like to drive the car up to the red line and taking it to 3rd on the road would have been ban inducing territory and is now much more lively on the road. So I guess I like to 'rev'!
Power requirements are based on comparisons with cars in the back of EVO i.e flywheel. I'd like to match an Aston Martin V12 Vantage (which has a similar kerb weight) at 520 flywheel so allowing for transmission losses say 415/420 at the wheels. I am happy to take the cam if that were the direction I was to take as extreme as possible while being able to pass emissions. Rev band 2000rpm to 6000rpm with a similar torque curve as I have now but just elevated.
I'd also like to make it sounds a little more 'heavy weight' so thinking cam would do this.
Budget is £6000 tops. I will never justify anymore expense on the engine so whatever I do now will be it.
Oh and what does 'Service Transmission' mean in the display on the dash? It has just appeared.
Power requirements are based on comparisons with cars in the back of EVO i.e flywheel. I'd like to match an Aston Martin V12 Vantage (which has a similar kerb weight) at 520 flywheel so allowing for transmission losses say 415/420 at the wheels. I am happy to take the cam if that were the direction I was to take as extreme as possible while being able to pass emissions. Rev band 2000rpm to 6000rpm with a similar torque curve as I have now but just elevated.
I'd also like to make it sounds a little more 'heavy weight' so thinking cam would do this.
Budget is £6000 tops. I will never justify anymore expense on the engine so whatever I do now will be it.
Oh and what does 'Service Transmission' mean in the display on the dash? It has just appeared.
nosubstitute said:
I have had the 3.9:1 diff fitted as I like to drive the car up to the red line and taking it to 3rd on the road would have been ban inducing territory and is now much more lively on the road. So I guess I like to 'rev'!
Power requirements are based on comparisons with cars in the back of EVO i.e flywheel. I'd like to match an Aston Martin V12 Vantage (which has a similar kerb weight) at 520 flywheel so allowing for transmission losses say 415/420 at the wheels. I am happy to take the cam if that were the direction I was to take as extreme as possible while being able to pass emissions. Rev band 2000rpm to 6000rpm with a similar torque curve as I have now but just elevated.
I'd also like to make it sounds a little more 'heavy weight' so thinking cam would do this.
Budget is £6000 tops. I will never justify anymore expense on the engine so whatever I do now will be it.
Oh and what does 'Service Transmission' mean in the display on the dash? It has just appeared.
Power requirements are based on comparisons with cars in the back of EVO i.e flywheel. I'd like to match an Aston Martin V12 Vantage (which has a similar kerb weight) at 520 flywheel so allowing for transmission losses say 415/420 at the wheels. I am happy to take the cam if that were the direction I was to take as extreme as possible while being able to pass emissions. Rev band 2000rpm to 6000rpm with a similar torque curve as I have now but just elevated.
I'd also like to make it sounds a little more 'heavy weight' so thinking cam would do this.
Budget is £6000 tops. I will never justify anymore expense on the engine so whatever I do now will be it.
Oh and what does 'Service Transmission' mean in the display on the dash? It has just appeared.
Looks like NA is for you then, or a Centri blower.
420RWHP won't happen on your budget though, more like 360
Certainly don't recommend a PD with a 3.9 diff.
Edited by crisisjez on Monday 26th April 19:43
Yep speak to TerryS. You want something similar to what he has.
You can get 420rwhp with an LS1 NA, but I dont think it will pass emissions. Might not be far off, but a fail is a fail.
So maybe some LS2 heads, mild cam or maybe even just rockers and centri blower and intercooler. Job done. If you are lucky TerryS will take you for a drive in his GTS-R with 500rwhp. You can run less boost for your 450rwhp odd and to save pistons etc.
You can get 420rwhp with an LS1 NA, but I dont think it will pass emissions. Might not be far off, but a fail is a fail.
So maybe some LS2 heads, mild cam or maybe even just rockers and centri blower and intercooler. Job done. If you are lucky TerryS will take you for a drive in his GTS-R with 500rwhp. You can run less boost for your 450rwhp odd and to save pistons etc.
Ringram in a separate post you mentioned Compcams LSR CAMS. I've had a look and there are several to choose from. I calculated the overlap by adding the durations together, dividing by 4 and then taking off the LCA and doubling. Is this correct?
How do you know if a cam will pass emissions? I was under the impression it was linked to the overlap but on some you get a negative figure and some a positive figure and some pretty much zero. Is there a band which the overlap must fall into in order to pass emissions?
Can you assess a cam's ability to pass emissions on the cam spec alone or would it be affected by the spec of the heads used with it?
How do you know if a cam will pass emissions? I was under the impression it was linked to the overlap but on some you get a negative figure and some a positive figure and some pretty much zero. Is there a band which the overlap must fall into in order to pass emissions?
Can you assess a cam's ability to pass emissions on the cam spec alone or would it be affected by the spec of the heads used with it?
ringram said:
wormus said:
Iron block fix all my problems.
Is that an incantation?
But yeah, The good breathing engine comment could have even come from me
Credit where credit due. Get the basics right and the rest follows. I was honestly shocked by the difference made by heads, headers and cam. If I were to spend 6k I'd get some LS2 heads, a cam and a second hand 122 blower. That diff could cause issues though so maybe a Vortec would be the better choice. Basically, the same as you said, speak to Terry.
wormus said:
ringram said:
wormus said:
Iron block fix all my problems.
Is that an incantation?But yeah, The good breathing engine comment could have even come from me
(know some one looking)
and whats the ruff cost on fitting ??
Yeah your calc sounds correct. In the US they say overlap should be zero at 0.050 to pass californian emissions. Which are similar to UK.
Gareth's passed with 0* overlap in his 224/232-114 if you are lucky he will have his emissions test sheet around and can confirm that the monaro would pass with similar cam.
I would anticipate head design and specifically valve size would have an effect. But cats should help more.
Roger has a cam he knows passes. But Im pretty sure its smaller than the one Gareth has.
There is a 219/227-112 LSR Comp cam which works out at -1* overlap. That would be the biggest Id go in an LS1. Should be good right from idle. If you are spending up to £6k I think you will get very close with some good heads to 415rwhp. Thats 30rwhp off what I had with cheapo heads and a smaller lower lift cam.
HYDRAULIC ROLLER-Excellent torque
with a very broad power band.
Great for street performance
and drivability.
Hyd. Hyd. 1500 to 6700 54-456-11 269Lr HR12 269 277 219 227 .607 .614 112°
Id put money on 415rwhp from an LS1 with an emissions capable cam maybe the LSR above and the right heads. Mast do some LS3 type heads for an LS1 bore. Stack an LS3 intake on top and there you go I recon. There are a few estimates in there, so no guarantee's, but like I say Id put money on it. The Mast heads flow about 50% more air than the LS1 heads.
If you dont like estimates and want guarantee's then a centri with a cam will do it easy without needing too much boost (and therefore intake temp heat)
Gareth's passed with 0* overlap in his 224/232-114 if you are lucky he will have his emissions test sheet around and can confirm that the monaro would pass with similar cam.
I would anticipate head design and specifically valve size would have an effect. But cats should help more.
Roger has a cam he knows passes. But Im pretty sure its smaller than the one Gareth has.
There is a 219/227-112 LSR Comp cam which works out at -1* overlap. That would be the biggest Id go in an LS1. Should be good right from idle. If you are spending up to £6k I think you will get very close with some good heads to 415rwhp. Thats 30rwhp off what I had with cheapo heads and a smaller lower lift cam.
HYDRAULIC ROLLER-Excellent torque
with a very broad power band.
Great for street performance
and drivability.
Hyd. Hyd. 1500 to 6700 54-456-11 269Lr HR12 269 277 219 227 .607 .614 112°
Id put money on 415rwhp from an LS1 with an emissions capable cam maybe the LSR above and the right heads. Mast do some LS3 type heads for an LS1 bore. Stack an LS3 intake on top and there you go I recon. There are a few estimates in there, so no guarantee's, but like I say Id put money on it. The Mast heads flow about 50% more air than the LS1 heads.
If you dont like estimates and want guarantee's then a centri with a cam will do it easy without needing too much boost (and therefore intake temp heat)
Im still not 100% sure which direction to take. As for cams i was looking into a 220/220 if i go that route, but cant afford any major mods until next year. 220/220 seems to produce alot of low down power and torque, the aussies claim even better fuel economy and 12.6 1/4's with a 3.9 diff with full bolt ons.
gsd2000 said:
Im still not 100% sure which direction to take. As for cams i was looking into a 220/220 if i go that route, but cant afford any major mods until next year. 220/220 seems to produce alot of low down power and torque, the aussies claim even better fuel economy and 12.6 1/4's with a 3.9 diff with full bolt ons.
You want to do both mate. A cam plus blower will give you x power at lower boost and therefore less risk.Figure your power goal out first
Watch MadMax's build, then throw a rotating assembley for 382 cubes in yours!
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