Arggh Clutch - Let the mods begin!
Discussion
The exhaust on these are so addictive 
Sounds like the guy that did your geo last was a bit of a monkey
Make sure you stick some weight as per workshop manual below
Normal Ride Height
2 x 37.5kg in front seats (37.5kg in each seat) plus a full fuel tank.
Ride height is measured from the centre of the road wheel, vertically, up to the road wheel arch.
Check tyre pressures before checking road wheel alignment.
Front & Rear Ride Height mm (±15mm) mm (±15mm)
Check vehicle geometry in the following order:
1 Caster Angle
2 Camber Angle
3 Toe
Adjustments to caster, camber and toe settings may impact each other. After checking / adjusting each setting, minor adjustments to caster, camber and toe may have to be made to reach the correct set up for the vehicle.
Both LH and RH Toe need to be adjusted when adjusting caster and camber.
Lower Suspension Arm front bush to the Subframe 115 Nm
Lower Suspension Arm rear bush to the Subframe 185 Nm
ETA Just added to FAQ
Sounds like the guy that did your geo last was a bit of a monkey
Make sure you stick some weight as per workshop manual below
| Item | Front | Rear |
|---|---|---|
| Toe (individual) | 3’ (±2’) | 10’ (+5’/-0’) |
| Total Toe | 6’ (±4’) | 20’ (+10’/-0’) |
| Camber | -30’ (±5’) | -105’ (-1° 45’) (±5’) |
| Cross Camber | 0’ (±10’) | 0’ (±10’) |
| Castor | 5° (+0.5°/-0.25°) | N/A |
| Cross Castor | 0° (±0.25°) | N/A |
| KPI | 11°/22’ | N/A |
Normal Ride Height
2 x 37.5kg in front seats (37.5kg in each seat) plus a full fuel tank.
Ride height is measured from the centre of the road wheel, vertically, up to the road wheel arch.
Check tyre pressures before checking road wheel alignment.
Front & Rear Ride Height mm (±15mm) mm (±15mm)
Check vehicle geometry in the following order:
1 Caster Angle
2 Camber Angle
3 Toe
Adjustments to caster, camber and toe settings may impact each other. After checking / adjusting each setting, minor adjustments to caster, camber and toe may have to be made to reach the correct set up for the vehicle.
Both LH and RH Toe need to be adjusted when adjusting caster and camber.
Lower Suspension Arm front bush to the Subframe 115 Nm
Lower Suspension Arm rear bush to the Subframe 185 Nm
ETA Just added to FAQ
Edited by mikey k on Monday 26th March 13:27
Hi Mikey,
thanks for the settings!
Are the torque settings the right way around?
The guy who did it is ok, he's someone I know at a local supplier and we were both doing the car together. Him and another guy were undoing the bolts while I was doing something else. You should have seen his face when it broke. I so wanted to go mental at them especially as i was going away for the weekend and now would have to take my g/f's clio, but it's just one of those things. I will get him to torque them all properly next time. I also expect that I will be getting free geometry checks for a very long time.
I am going to repace both of the vertical bolts just in case the other side is also knackered. I don't know whether to replace the two rear adjustment bolts and the front horizontal subframe bolts as a precaution. I don't know if it might have damaged the semicircular threads or stretched the bolts if they also have been done too tight. What do you think?
I just hope that the bolt will come out the top of the bush without hitting the new manifold above!?
thanks,
Oli.
thanks for the settings!
Are the torque settings the right way around?
The guy who did it is ok, he's someone I know at a local supplier and we were both doing the car together. Him and another guy were undoing the bolts while I was doing something else. You should have seen his face when it broke. I so wanted to go mental at them especially as i was going away for the weekend and now would have to take my g/f's clio, but it's just one of those things. I will get him to torque them all properly next time. I also expect that I will be getting free geometry checks for a very long time.
I am going to repace both of the vertical bolts just in case the other side is also knackered. I don't know whether to replace the two rear adjustment bolts and the front horizontal subframe bolts as a precaution. I don't know if it might have damaged the semicircular threads or stretched the bolts if they also have been done too tight. What do you think?
I just hope that the bolt will come out the top of the bush without hitting the new manifold above!?
thanks,
Oli.
Everything I normally take apart gets copper greased, but I didn't know whether it was a good idea to apply it to the cam adjusters in case it made them more likely to slip in use. what do you reckon? are they likely to get any unwanted movement when torqued if they are copper greased?
If not, I will remove them all one by one and copper grease and re-torque.
Could you look at the torques you posted, as i was sent a link to the workshop manual, and the torques are the other way around.
Oli.
If not, I will remove them all one by one and copper grease and re-torque.
Could you look at the torques you posted, as i was sent a link to the workshop manual, and the torques are the other way around.
Oli.
OliHall said:
Everything I normally take apart gets copper greased, but I didn't know whether it was a good idea to apply it to the cam adjusters in case it made them more likely to slip in use. what do you reckon? are they likely to get any unwanted movement when torqued if they are copper greased?
If not, I will remove them all one by one and copper grease and re-torque.
Could you look at the torques you posted, as i was sent a link to the workshop manual, and the torques are the other way around.
Oli.
Are they likely to seize?If not, I will remove them all one by one and copper grease and re-torque.
Could you look at the torques you posted, as i was sent a link to the workshop manual, and the torques are the other way around.
Oli.
I've not pulled them to see, if so I'd just grease the shaft (matron)
If you suspect they've been over torqued I replace them anyway
The figures I've quoted are correct in my copy from page 148
I changed all the cam bolt adjusters yesterday. All were really easy to replace apart from the two front castor bolts. These are the ones that go vertically through the rear bush of the lower arm.
They were both seized so tight into the metal inner collets of the bushes that it took two people to remove them. After applying penetrating oil, I turned the top adjustment bolt with as much force as I could, building up force by twisting the rubber bush while my assistant hammered upwards on the broken thread with a punch, hammering upwards with any accuracy is very difficult! But they came out after much persuasion. The other side was the similar but it wasn't quite as tight in there and was easier to hammer as the thread was longer and we were able to put a nut on the end and hammer on the nut instead of having to use the punch.
For reference it is *just* possible to remove both sides without undoing any of the Bamford Rose exhaust manifolds or jacking up the engine. I am not sure about with the standard manifold. All the other cam bolts on the front and rear were easy, and I replaced these just in case they had also been over torqued.
I reckon that the problem is caused because the bolts are D shaped to engage in the cam shaped washers to rotate them as the bolts are rotated to adjust the geometry. When the nuts are fastened, the D shaped bolt thread leaves a gap between the bolt and the nut. This gap allows salt water from the road to penetrate up the gap between the bolt and the nut and into the threads and the bush collet causing a good deal of corrosion between the shank of the bolt and the bush collet and between the thread of the bolt and the thread of the nut. I have applied copper grease to the shank and thread of the bolt and the adjusters which will hopefully stop this happening again. I am also tempted to seal the top of the nut and bolt with silicone sealant to stop the ingress of salt water up the bolt in future. All the other bolts were fine because they are in areas where they are protected against spray from the road.
We torqued the first nut on the rear camber to the correct torque of 115Nm but this seemed excessively tight and myself and the guy who was helping thought that with the addition of copper grease to the adjusters and threads that we should tighten them to the lower torque.
This morning I have learned about the difference between wet and dry torque, and that torque values should be reduced between 15-25% when copper grease has been applied to threads and washers as the friction in the thread and mating surfaces of the nut and bolt are reduced when copper grease is applied, and you don’t need to tighten the nut to as much torque to achieve the same tension in the bolt. I don’t know what torque we did tighten them to, but it felt tight enough. What do people think? Should I re-torque them? Or just leave them as they are? I have been trying to find a table to look up the wet/dry torque values of M12 threads, but I can only find imperial torque tables that show wet/dry torques.
On positive note, Last night was the first chance I have to drive the car with proper geometry for the first time since the clutch/flywheel/exhaust were fitted, and my god does it go well. Before the mods, when you hit the throttle, the power used to build up slowly and it was a second or so before the power really kicked in. Now you put your foot down and it just goes… immediately. There is so much more of a punch in the back when you boot it, and the noise is amazing.
I do about 350 miles a week to and from work so this means I spend about £500 a month on petrol. I wanted to know what difference driving at 70, 75 and 80 did to the MPG. I had previously spent a week writing down my MPG on my way to and from work where I would reset the average MPG at a certain point every time when I got on the motorway and then put it on cruise at a certain speed and most time I can do the 25 miles until I leave the motorway without touching the throttle or the brake. When I get to the junction I leave at, I write down the MPG.
Before the mods and geometry I would average a steady 25.8-26.2mpg at 70mph with no air con. First trip back today I got 27.4 and I forgot to switch the air con off until half way back. I was getting over 28mpg after switching air on off, so I think I am getting about 10% better MPG after the mods and the geometry. That’s a £2500 per year saving on fuel. Not bad!
Looking forward to getting it back to AMD to see what the power increase is!
Oli.
They were both seized so tight into the metal inner collets of the bushes that it took two people to remove them. After applying penetrating oil, I turned the top adjustment bolt with as much force as I could, building up force by twisting the rubber bush while my assistant hammered upwards on the broken thread with a punch, hammering upwards with any accuracy is very difficult! But they came out after much persuasion. The other side was the similar but it wasn't quite as tight in there and was easier to hammer as the thread was longer and we were able to put a nut on the end and hammer on the nut instead of having to use the punch.
For reference it is *just* possible to remove both sides without undoing any of the Bamford Rose exhaust manifolds or jacking up the engine. I am not sure about with the standard manifold. All the other cam bolts on the front and rear were easy, and I replaced these just in case they had also been over torqued.
I reckon that the problem is caused because the bolts are D shaped to engage in the cam shaped washers to rotate them as the bolts are rotated to adjust the geometry. When the nuts are fastened, the D shaped bolt thread leaves a gap between the bolt and the nut. This gap allows salt water from the road to penetrate up the gap between the bolt and the nut and into the threads and the bush collet causing a good deal of corrosion between the shank of the bolt and the bush collet and between the thread of the bolt and the thread of the nut. I have applied copper grease to the shank and thread of the bolt and the adjusters which will hopefully stop this happening again. I am also tempted to seal the top of the nut and bolt with silicone sealant to stop the ingress of salt water up the bolt in future. All the other bolts were fine because they are in areas where they are protected against spray from the road.
We torqued the first nut on the rear camber to the correct torque of 115Nm but this seemed excessively tight and myself and the guy who was helping thought that with the addition of copper grease to the adjusters and threads that we should tighten them to the lower torque.
This morning I have learned about the difference between wet and dry torque, and that torque values should be reduced between 15-25% when copper grease has been applied to threads and washers as the friction in the thread and mating surfaces of the nut and bolt are reduced when copper grease is applied, and you don’t need to tighten the nut to as much torque to achieve the same tension in the bolt. I don’t know what torque we did tighten them to, but it felt tight enough. What do people think? Should I re-torque them? Or just leave them as they are? I have been trying to find a table to look up the wet/dry torque values of M12 threads, but I can only find imperial torque tables that show wet/dry torques.
On positive note, Last night was the first chance I have to drive the car with proper geometry for the first time since the clutch/flywheel/exhaust were fitted, and my god does it go well. Before the mods, when you hit the throttle, the power used to build up slowly and it was a second or so before the power really kicked in. Now you put your foot down and it just goes… immediately. There is so much more of a punch in the back when you boot it, and the noise is amazing.
I do about 350 miles a week to and from work so this means I spend about £500 a month on petrol. I wanted to know what difference driving at 70, 75 and 80 did to the MPG. I had previously spent a week writing down my MPG on my way to and from work where I would reset the average MPG at a certain point every time when I got on the motorway and then put it on cruise at a certain speed and most time I can do the 25 miles until I leave the motorway without touching the throttle or the brake. When I get to the junction I leave at, I write down the MPG.
Before the mods and geometry I would average a steady 25.8-26.2mpg at 70mph with no air con. First trip back today I got 27.4 and I forgot to switch the air con off until half way back. I was getting over 28mpg after switching air on off, so I think I am getting about 10% better MPG after the mods and the geometry. That’s a £2500 per year saving on fuel. Not bad!
Looking forward to getting it back to AMD to see what the power increase is!
Oli.
OliHall said:
This morning I have learned about the difference between wet and dry torque, and that torque values should be reduced between 15-25% when copper grease has been applied to threads and washers as the friction in the thread and mating surfaces of the nut and bolt are reduced when copper grease is applied, and you don’t need to tighten the nut to as much torque to achieve the same tension in the bolt. I don’t know what torque we did tighten them to, but it felt tight enough. What do people think? Should I re-torque them? Or just leave them as they are? I have been trying to find a table to look up the wet/dry torque values of M12 threads, but I can only find imperial torque tables that show wet/dry torques.
I'd torque them at 10% lessCan you not convert the imperial settings?
http://www.onlineconversion.com/torque.htm
I did just find a metric bolt torque for wet and dry threads. The torques are imperial lbFt, but I can convert these into Nm
http://www.cncexpo.com/MetricBoltTorque.aspx
M12 x 1.75 thread pitch 10.9 hardness bolts:
Max dry torque: 93 lbFt = 126 Nm
Max wet torque: 69 = 93.5 Nm
M14 x 2.00 thread pitch 10.9 hardness bolts:
Max dry torque: 148 lbFt = 200Nm
Max wet torque: 111 lbFt = 150.5Nm
Both of these thread sizes the wet torque is 25% less than the dry torque so the wet torque for our M12 115Nm cam bolts should be about 85Nm and the M14 185Nm front camber bolts should be 140Nm.
Next time I have the car on the ramps, I may re-torque them to this setting.
Oli.
http://www.cncexpo.com/MetricBoltTorque.aspx
M12 x 1.75 thread pitch 10.9 hardness bolts:
Max dry torque: 93 lbFt = 126 Nm
Max wet torque: 69 = 93.5 Nm
M14 x 2.00 thread pitch 10.9 hardness bolts:
Max dry torque: 148 lbFt = 200Nm
Max wet torque: 111 lbFt = 150.5Nm
Both of these thread sizes the wet torque is 25% less than the dry torque so the wet torque for our M12 115Nm cam bolts should be about 85Nm and the M14 185Nm front camber bolts should be 140Nm.
Next time I have the car on the ramps, I may re-torque them to this setting.
Oli.
Hi,
I have just had the car out for my first spirited drive since all the work has been done. All I can say is wow!
I had done a few trips to and from work since last week, but yesterday was the first time that I was able to take it out for a proper blast. One of my guys at work had broken a small part on a machine the other side of Bedford and I jumped at the chance to drive the 60 mile round trip to take him a replacement part! Of course I took the Aston instead of the work van, and after fixing the machine, I took the longest possible route back to work along some nice country roads and a really good bit of new road which has about four roundabouts with a mile of empty dual carriageway between each.
The most noticeable thing I would say is the car feels like it is about 250kg lighter than it was. This is all the improvements add together to vastly improve responsiveness, making the car feel much lighter and more sporty.
Before the changes the car had a very smooth torque curve and it accelerated in a very linear way throughout the rev range. When you hit the throttle the power took about a second to build up before you achieved full acceleration. This lazy throttle response made it very easy to drive smoothly and while it was a great GT, it always felt like a comfortable cruiser rather than sporty or exciting. The inability to heel and toe properly was one of my biggest gripes when I got the car, and after 2 and a half years I still couldn’t get it right all the time. Also when pulling away quickly if you let the clutch out too quickly, the car would bog down as much of the engine inertia was lost in heat in the clutch rather than in forward motion causing the car to smell of burnt clutch.
I am pleased to say that the recent mods have greatly improved all of these aspects. The first thing you notice is the clutch is much lighter to press down, and when you let the clutch out fast, all the inertia in the engine is transferred to the wheels almost instantly. A few times on the way back home from getting the clutch done, I accidentally chirped the back wheels when pulling away because the clutch engages much more positively than before. This means that the engine inertia is transferred into forward motion instead of into heat in the clutch. This causes the car not to bog down at this point and the lighter clutch and flywheel take much less time to spin up due to the lighter rotational mass causing it to accelerate much faster throughout the lower rev range. I got used to the clutch really quickly and it is just as road friendly as any other normal car.
The next thing you notice is that when you get to about 4k there is a noticeable increase in power right up to the red line. It is most noticeable in the higher gears as you have time to appreciate the increase in torque as the revs climb past 4k. This is a very useable increase in power because it is not too far up the rev range to be useful in normal driving. In second or third out of fast corners it is very easy now to get a bit of a drift on as the power is there straight away as soon as you get on the throttle. It is also at exactly the right point in the rev range for overtaking in 4th or 5th without having to rev the tits off it in 3rd as you did before.
Then there is the noise, oh my god it’s glorious. It is such an amazing noise and as pommehogster said before, it is so addictive. I couldn’t believe how good it sounded when I first drove it. I must admit that there have been several times when I have put it into quiet mode when leaving the house at 7am as it is a bit too loud for that time in the morning. Luckily if you leave the switch closed it is just as quiet as before until all hell breaks loose at 4k. The nice thing about it is it that in loud mode, it is actually makes a quiet burbling when cruising and at light throttle application, but it roars like anything when you boot it.
About a year before I bought the V8 I rented one for a long weekend and did about 400 miles in it. I knew it wasn’t the fastest or the most responsive and it got me lost in London for an hour while following the stupid satnav which made me late to pick up my girlfriend from her graduation. I still wanted one because I loved the whole package: the look, the nice interior, the ability to cover the miles in comfort.
At the time of buying my car if I had the option of a car with the BR clutch/flywheel/exhaust, I would have definitely paid the extra. I honestly can’t believe why AM didn’t make the V8 like this in the first place. Either they didn’t want to make it better than the DB9 at release, or they seriously wanted to dumb it down to make it more accessible for novice drivers. In my opinion it definitely makes it a faster and better option than a similar age n/a 911. It would have only cost AM a small amount on each production car and it would have put it in a totally different performance league.
If anyone is considering any of these upgrades and would like to talk, please get in touch. I am in north London / Herts / Beds area. Mike and Adrian have been great throughout the whole process and have made me feel really confident in the service they offer. Everything was really well explained at each stage of the way and when the other garage broke the camber bolts, Adrian sent out a new full set straight away – they were the only place that had them in stock out of four other AM places in London that I phoned. I would definitely recommend them and I will be back very shortly to get my regular service done.
I am hoping to get the car back down to AMD for another power run soon, will update as soon as I have results,
Thanks,
Oli.
I have just had the car out for my first spirited drive since all the work has been done. All I can say is wow!
I had done a few trips to and from work since last week, but yesterday was the first time that I was able to take it out for a proper blast. One of my guys at work had broken a small part on a machine the other side of Bedford and I jumped at the chance to drive the 60 mile round trip to take him a replacement part! Of course I took the Aston instead of the work van, and after fixing the machine, I took the longest possible route back to work along some nice country roads and a really good bit of new road which has about four roundabouts with a mile of empty dual carriageway between each.
The most noticeable thing I would say is the car feels like it is about 250kg lighter than it was. This is all the improvements add together to vastly improve responsiveness, making the car feel much lighter and more sporty.
Before the changes the car had a very smooth torque curve and it accelerated in a very linear way throughout the rev range. When you hit the throttle the power took about a second to build up before you achieved full acceleration. This lazy throttle response made it very easy to drive smoothly and while it was a great GT, it always felt like a comfortable cruiser rather than sporty or exciting. The inability to heel and toe properly was one of my biggest gripes when I got the car, and after 2 and a half years I still couldn’t get it right all the time. Also when pulling away quickly if you let the clutch out too quickly, the car would bog down as much of the engine inertia was lost in heat in the clutch rather than in forward motion causing the car to smell of burnt clutch.
I am pleased to say that the recent mods have greatly improved all of these aspects. The first thing you notice is the clutch is much lighter to press down, and when you let the clutch out fast, all the inertia in the engine is transferred to the wheels almost instantly. A few times on the way back home from getting the clutch done, I accidentally chirped the back wheels when pulling away because the clutch engages much more positively than before. This means that the engine inertia is transferred into forward motion instead of into heat in the clutch. This causes the car not to bog down at this point and the lighter clutch and flywheel take much less time to spin up due to the lighter rotational mass causing it to accelerate much faster throughout the lower rev range. I got used to the clutch really quickly and it is just as road friendly as any other normal car.
The next thing you notice is that when you get to about 4k there is a noticeable increase in power right up to the red line. It is most noticeable in the higher gears as you have time to appreciate the increase in torque as the revs climb past 4k. This is a very useable increase in power because it is not too far up the rev range to be useful in normal driving. In second or third out of fast corners it is very easy now to get a bit of a drift on as the power is there straight away as soon as you get on the throttle. It is also at exactly the right point in the rev range for overtaking in 4th or 5th without having to rev the tits off it in 3rd as you did before.
Then there is the noise, oh my god it’s glorious. It is such an amazing noise and as pommehogster said before, it is so addictive. I couldn’t believe how good it sounded when I first drove it. I must admit that there have been several times when I have put it into quiet mode when leaving the house at 7am as it is a bit too loud for that time in the morning. Luckily if you leave the switch closed it is just as quiet as before until all hell breaks loose at 4k. The nice thing about it is it that in loud mode, it is actually makes a quiet burbling when cruising and at light throttle application, but it roars like anything when you boot it.
About a year before I bought the V8 I rented one for a long weekend and did about 400 miles in it. I knew it wasn’t the fastest or the most responsive and it got me lost in London for an hour while following the stupid satnav which made me late to pick up my girlfriend from her graduation. I still wanted one because I loved the whole package: the look, the nice interior, the ability to cover the miles in comfort.
At the time of buying my car if I had the option of a car with the BR clutch/flywheel/exhaust, I would have definitely paid the extra. I honestly can’t believe why AM didn’t make the V8 like this in the first place. Either they didn’t want to make it better than the DB9 at release, or they seriously wanted to dumb it down to make it more accessible for novice drivers. In my opinion it definitely makes it a faster and better option than a similar age n/a 911. It would have only cost AM a small amount on each production car and it would have put it in a totally different performance league.
If anyone is considering any of these upgrades and would like to talk, please get in touch. I am in north London / Herts / Beds area. Mike and Adrian have been great throughout the whole process and have made me feel really confident in the service they offer. Everything was really well explained at each stage of the way and when the other garage broke the camber bolts, Adrian sent out a new full set straight away – they were the only place that had them in stock out of four other AM places in London that I phoned. I would definitely recommend them and I will be back very shortly to get my regular service done.
I am hoping to get the car back down to AMD for another power run soon, will update as soon as I have results,
Thanks,
Oli.
Hey oil
I am so glad you are happy with your car after having all your new pieces added.
I was so amazed when I had my Exhaust system replaced, it really transformed the driving experience two fold.
Firstly the sound wow, goose bumps and very addictive what I mean to say is just can't stop blipping the throttle and driving hard to hear it.
Secondly what a massive difference it made to driving, from the huge gain in torque to the delivery of power, just awesome .
Hope the clutch and flywheel are doing as great a job as well.
Enjoy.
I am so glad you are happy with your car after having all your new pieces added.
I was so amazed when I had my Exhaust system replaced, it really transformed the driving experience two fold.
Firstly the sound wow, goose bumps and very addictive what I mean to say is just can't stop blipping the throttle and driving hard to hear it.
Secondly what a massive difference it made to driving, from the huge gain in torque to the delivery of power, just awesome .
Hope the clutch and flywheel are doing as great a job as well.
Enjoy.
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