Aston Vs Jag - are we slipping back?

[craigjm]

Murph7355 said:

Money is key, but unlike Craig I also think they need help on the tech front.

I didnt say they didnt need help on the tech front, what I meant by them needing funding is that they need to have the ability to develop themselves tech wise like Jaguar has through TATA money rather than buy tech from someone else like people are suggesting Mercedes tech here.

[craigjm]

yeti said:

Toyota was mooted earlier, was that just plucking a maker out of the air or has it been discussed? They make advanced V8s for Lexus, the LFA's V10, big engined hybrids, can supercharge their V6s... But why would they be interested in Aston Martin? It'd be great if they were, they are a proper car maker.

I plucked it out of the air but its not beyond the realms of possibility because they already sell Aston the IQ and they have are fighting with VW to be the biggest car maker in the world but unlike VW they dont have any really aspirational brands.

To be honest. Who gives a fook where the money comes from. Using the Jaguar example everyone was negative when TATA moved in but look who is laughing now.

[michael gould]

George H said:

michael gould said:

I drove a Bentley a few years back and I thought it was a jolly good car........and do you know why? because it’s a W12 VW Phaeton with some decent leather work and a 50k premium for shipping it to Crew and putting all the bits together that were shipped from Germany
VW make very good cars

I'm not doubting it's credentials as a good car, but it has an image associated with it that I don't want, much like all modern Ferraris.

yep im with George on this one......not many x public boys would drive a Conti.......its a footballers car

[craigjm]

michael gould said:

yep im with George on this one......not many x public boys would drive a Conti.......its a footballers car

Whats wrong with that? dont other things change image over the course of their life / career / existence? Current image isn't to your liking, or that of George but they are selling in decent numbers and making their owners a profit, surely that is what good business is about?

[michael gould]

craigjm said:

michael gould said:

yep im with George on this one......not many x public boys would drive a Conti.......its a footballers car

Whats wrong with that? dont other things change image over the course of their life / career / existence? Current image isn't to your liking, or that of George but they are selling in decent numbers and making their owners a profit, surely that is what good business is about?

There is nothing wrong with that (my comment, as many of my comments are, was tongue in cheek)the Conti is a good car but it is a VW Phaeton with a "Bentley" body on it ......and my wife has told me that if I ever boiught one she would leave me (pennilless)and that's far more important

[craigjm]

michael gould said:

There is nothing wrong with that (my comment, as many of my comments are, was tongue in cheek)the Conti is a good car but it is a VW Phaeton with a "Bentley" body on it ......and my wife has told me that if I ever boiught one she would leave me (pennilless)and that's far more important

And in that vein Astons are a stylish body wrapped around two Mondeo engines welded together and who in their right mind would pay over 100k for that?

Cars from vastly different markets share components from ZF, Bosch etc its the reality of mass production. Anyone harking back to an Aston era akin to Morgan like above needs to start looking at the likes of Zonda et al if that is whats important to them.

On a point of image because everyone seems to be focusing on the image of say the Bentley GT what do we think the image of Aston is currently compared to where it has been in the past?

[ferdi p]

The F-Type is the car that Aston should have built to replace the Vantage...

The Virage/DB9 mistake was a joke & makes Aston look like chumps!

Anyone who thinks that Aston can survive with this old look & average tech need to wake up...

I loved my N420 but 'Brand-Aston' is not the only reason I buy a car, they need Investment & a new design team, then maybe new cutomers will take them more seriously...

[George H]

ferdi p said:

The F-Type is the car that Aston should have built to replace the Vantage...

The Virage/DB9 mistake was a joke & makes Aston look like chumps!

Anyone who thinks that Aston can survive with this old look & average tech need to wake up...

I loved my N420 but 'Brand-Aston' is not the only reason I buy a car, they need Investment & a new design team, then maybe new cutomers will take them more seriously...

I hope the new Vantage is nothing like the F type. For one it's massively heavy, ugly (from the front), and 8 speed auto only. Some drivers car it needs an automated manual and about 200kgs knocked off the weight.

What's wrong with Astons look either? I genuinely don't understand people who criticise Aston for the way they look... They make the best looking cars on sale today (imo). Why would they risk alienating their current owners by creating a radical new design that might not look as good? Then they would be criticised for not keeping the current design.... It's a lose-lose situation for them they should just follow Porsche and evolve the current shape.

[michael gould]

craigjm said:

michael gould said:

There is nothing wrong with that (my comment, as many of my comments are, was tongue in cheek)the Conti is a good car but it is a VW Phaeton with a "Bentley" body on it ......and my wife has told me that if I ever boiught one she would leave me (pennilless)and that's far more important

And in that vein Astons are a stylish body wrapped around two Mondeo engines welded together and who in their right mind would pay over 100k for that?

Cars from vastly different markets share components from ZF, Bosch etc its the reality of mass production. Anyone harking back to an Aston era akin to Morgan like above needs to start looking at the likes of Zonda et al if that is whats important to them.

On a point of image because everyone seems to be focusing on the image of say the Bentley GT what do we think the image of Aston is currently compared to where it has been in the past?

I think that is a poor comparison.....the Conti is a Phaeton engine...Phaeton gearbox....a Phaeton chassis......Phaeton suspension...it’s a bloody Phaeton .......to suggest that an DB9 is a Mondeo is a little moronic........you don’t drive a Jag do you ??

[ferdi p]

George H said:

ferdi p said:

The F-Type is the car that Aston should have built to replace the Vantage...

The Virage/DB9 mistake was a joke & makes Aston look like chumps!

Anyone who thinks that Aston can survive with this old look & average tech need to wake up...

I loved my N420 but 'Brand-Aston' is not the only reason I buy a car, they need Investment & a new design team, then maybe new cutomers will take them more seriously...

I hope the new Vantage is nothing like the F type. For one it's massively heavy, ugly (from the front), and 8 speed auto only. Some drivers car it needs an automated manual and about 200kgs knocked off the weight.

What's wrong with Astons look either? I genuinely don't understand people who criticise Aston for the way they look... They make the best looking cars on sale today (imo). Why would they risk alienating their current owners by creating a radical new design that might not look as good? Then they would be criticised for not keeping the current design.... It's a lose-lose situation for them they should just follow Porsche and evolve the current shape.

In my honest opinion you cant compare Porsche & Aston...
Since 2004/5 the 911 has come evolved to the current 991...
The Vantage is basically the same, bored out engine & a few other tech improvements. You cant compare a 996 to a 997 let alone a 991 (different engine, gearbox, interior etc etc)

Im Sorry but 'Safe' is dangerous. The 308/328 Ferrari was considered a beautiful shape so why change it? 348,355,360,430 & now the brilliant 458

By staying safe & not investing Aston have a bleak future IMO...

[craigjm]

michael gould said:

I think that is a poor comparison.....the Conti is a Phaeton engine...Phaeton gearbox....a Phaeton chassis......Phaeton suspension...it’s a bloody Phaeton .......to suggest that an DB9 is a Mondeo is a little moronic........you don’t drive a Jag do you ??

No I dont

[George H]

ferdi p said:

In my honest opinion you cant compare Porsche & Aston...
Since 2004/5 the 911 has come evolved to the current 991...
The Vantage is basically the same, bored out engine & a few other tech improvements. You cant compare a 996 to a 997 let alone a 991 (different engine, gearbox, interior etc etc)

Im Sorry but 'Safe' is dangerous. The 308/328 Ferrari was considered a beautiful shape so why change it? 348,355,360,430 & now the brilliant 458

By staying safe & not investing Aston have a bleak future IMO...

I'm not comparing Porsche and Aston... I'm saying Aston should be more like Porsche with evolving models rather than revolutionising them.

When I think of the Ferraris you've listed it just makes me realise how little I like modern Ferraris. That list shows me how the styling went downhill with their revolution type approach. Plus most of the modern ones have aged very badly imo. No one says that about a 911 (except the 996).

I thought last time Aston tried something new and radical it nearly made them bust? (Lagonda?)

[yeti]

George H said:

I thought last time Aston tried something new and radical it nearly made them bust? (Lagonda?)

Last time Aston tried something different... the DB7 was the result! Which was their best selling until the DB9... which was their best selling car until the Vantage...

Now what though? Can't imagine they'll sell another 12000 'new' DB9s or 'old' Vantages.

[ferdi p]

George H said:

ferdi p said:

In my honest opinion you cant compare Porsche & Aston...
Since 2004/5 the 911 has come evolved to the current 991...
The Vantage is basically the same, bored out engine & a few other tech improvements. You cant compare a 996 to a 997 let alone a 991 (different engine, gearbox, interior etc etc)

Im Sorry but 'Safe' is dangerous. The 308/328 Ferrari was considered a beautiful shape so why change it? 348,355,360,430 & now the brilliant 458

By staying safe & not investing Aston have a bleak future IMO...

I'm not comparing Porsche and Aston... I'm saying Aston should be more like Porsche with evolving models rather than revolutionising them.

When I think of the Ferraris you've listed it just makes me realise how little I like modern Ferraris. That list shows me how the styling went downhill with their revolution type approach. Plus most of the modern ones have aged very badly imo. No one says that about a 911 (except the 996).

I thought last time Aston tried something new and radical it nearly made them bust? (Lagonda?)

So Aston have to please you not the mass sports car buying public?
Ferrari have gone from strength to strength, biggest ever proffits this year & a modern, brilliant line up of cars too...

Lets see if your right, but I fear not...
Sales of the Vantage, DB9/Virage & the new Vanquish aint gonna cut it IMO

[lady topaz]

Since leaving the fold and running the XF, I am being bombarded with invites to the F Type launch and today was invited to go to a Jaguar Driving experience day up in Warwickshire, driving the XKR and XFR.
They certainly want to nail my bum firmly into the Jag camp.
I keep telling the Jag guys that as much as I admire their range, I now have Aston running through my veins.
Although I am not ready to return to a two seater, I priced up the F Type I would go for if in the market, and it came out at over £86,000.
For me this is a non starter when I could get back into a low mileage V12V for the same money.
Yes there are a lot of everyday features that modern Jaguars have, decent sat nav for one and electronic handbrake, exterior cameras etc. To me the lack of some of these features makes the Aston a more individual and desireable prospect.


Di

[yeti]

ferdi p said:

Ferrari have gone from strength to strength, biggest ever proffits this year & a modern, brilliant line up of cars too...

When they most needed money for development, when they began to lag behind their rivals... they got money, against the EU rules and regs, from FIAT via the Italian government. That's why Ferrari are where they are, plus some engineering excellence and a huge marketing machine. When I was in Angola last, every person there was wearing Ferrari branded clothing, caps and shoes. Sure, it's all fake, but it is one of the world's most recognised brands. It doesn't need to make that pathetic 'cool' list that Apple tops; from my travels around the world, Ferrari is the most widely recognised brand.

No-one will bail Aston out or stop them from failing. Even the marketers probably can't dig them out. Let's just hope there's something waiting in the wings. The 310quish, for me at least, with an all-carbon body and VCT on the engine was a very pleasant surprise.

A Vanquish S version with 600bhp would be formidible, perhaps that will get the 8spd ZF box... Or maybe even a manual (fat chance). But at least that would be competitive. It seems to be slated on the interior quality currently - people need top see it in the flesh, it makes the current cars seem very dated

[George H]

ferdi p said:

So Aston have to please you not the mass sports car buying public?
Ferrari have gone from strength to strength, biggest ever proffits this year & a modern, brilliant line up of cars too...

Lets see if your right, but I fear not...
Sales of the Vantage, DB9/Virage & the new Vanquish aint gonna cut it IMO

When did I say I wanted them to please only me? You're good at twisting words... Are you a lawyer by any chance?

Ferrari have gone from strength to strength in some areas (I.e car sales), but their brand is laughable now imo. Ferrari World for christs sake! Enzo would be spinning in his grave if he saw that! It seems they just stick the prancing horse on anything they can to make money.... Probably makes them a lot but sad to see imo. I wouldn't describe their lineup of cars as brilliant either. Yes they're technically superior but I wouldn't have any of them over an Aston.... Like I said before, an image I wouldn't want to be associated with. Stuff like Ferrari world etc is why. Not to mention how horrendously ugly modern Ferraris are

[ferdi p]

George H said:

ferdi p said:

So Aston have to please you not the mass sports car buying public?
Ferrari have gone from strength to strength, biggest ever proffits this year & a modern, brilliant line up of cars too...

Lets see if your right, but I fear not...
Sales of the Vantage, DB9/Virage & the new Vanquish aint gonna cut it IMO

When did I say I wanted them to please only me? You're good at twisting words... Are you a lawyer by any chance?

Ferrari have gone from strength to strength in some areas (I.e car sales), but their brand is laughable now imo. Ferrari World for christs sake! Enzo would be spinning in his grave if he saw that! It seems they just stick the prancing horse on anything they can to make money.... Probably makes them a lot but sad to see imo. I wouldn't describe their lineup of cars as brilliant either. Yes they're technically superior but I wouldn't have any of them over an Aston.... Like I said before, an image I wouldn't want to be associated with. Stuff like Ferrari world etc is why. Not to mention how horrendously ugly modern Ferraris are

I couldn't care less about Ferrari World, baseball caps & other branded crap...
What I'm saying is they have a range of cars that is way more advanced than Aston at the moment...
Aston also enjoys selling branded crap (& 007 tie-ups) & if that meant they made more money to invest in the cars, I for one wouldn't complain...

By the way I love Astons & am currently looking for a DBS/V12V, its just that I'm bored with the lack of design direction/innovation at mo...

[George H]

ferdi p said:

I couldn't care less about Ferrari World, baseball caps & other branded crap...
What I'm saying is they have a range of cars that is way more advanced than Aston at the moment...
Aston also enjoys selling branded crap (& 007 tie-ups) & if that meant they made more money to invest in the cars, I for one wouldn't complain...

By the way I love Astons & am currently looking for a DBS/V12V, its just that I'm bored with the lack of design direction/innovation at mo...

Like I said... More advanced doesn't mean more desirable for everyone.

Lots of car companies have been selling the same model for just as long as Aston have. Look at Lamborghini with the Gallardo - it had a mid life facelift (similar to the recent one for the DB9) and it's still on sale. Not to mention the Maserati Quattroporte. It's hardly as if Aston are unique in this, I think people are worried over nothing. For the moment anyway.

[yeti]

George H said:

Lots of car companies have been selling the same model for just as long as Aston have. Look at Lamborghini with the Gallardo - it had a mid life facelift (similar to the recent one for the DB9) and it's still on sale. Not to mention the Maserati Quattroporte. It's hardly as if Aston are unique in this, I think people are worried over nothing. For the moment anyway.

Fair point - but VW will pay for the Gallardos replacement and FIAT for Maseratis. Who will stump up for the Vantage replacement?

Mind you, considering Aston have bugger all money, the 310quish isn't a bad stab at a new car. A Vantage with the new 'One-77 inspired' looks, carbon body, 10% more power and a new interior would be a good seller.