Geneva 2012

[Vantagefan]

Is it just me or are Aston suspiciously quiet so far? Do I remember someone mentioning a potential debut of the new DBS this year or am I massively mistaken?

[DB9 Ian P]

Looks like a complete let down to me

After the news that came out of Molly and Robert's Gaydon factory visit last year it looked like we might be seeing a new DBS and the V12V Roadster and Geneva might be a really exciting show for Aston - where are they and I wonder what happened?????

Seems strange to have a regular V12V as a show car and sat beside the V12 Zagato - is that so potential buyers can compare and contrast or did the development of the roadster version not progress as expected. It seemed to get a buzz going but perhaps not enough of one for them to commit to it.

I suppose you could say the same about them showing the DBS Carbon Edition. It's new - but not that new.

As for the Q cars I haven't seen a picture of the Cygnet yet (can't wait ) but the Virage Volante looks dreadful imo I guess the message it gives to me is that the UK is not that important to Aston and they need to build vehicles that are attractive in the fast developing parts of the world where people have money to burn.

[Vantagefan]

Odd, you can benchmark a companies progress quite well at the motorshows - what have they developed or achieved in a year? Last year was Virage and Cygnet, with One-77 too I think.

When you compare and contrast to the competition it's a bit of a no show at the moment!

[Guycord]

You Know...if I were a stick of rock....it would say Aston all the way through.

However, you have £405k to spend would you

a) Buy the Aston Martin V12 Vantage Zagato or

b) Buy the Ferrari F12 and V12 Vantage?

Sort of looks inconvienient for AM doesnt it?

Edited by Guycord on Tuesday 6th March 16:49

[Vantagefan]

Guycord said:

You Know...if I were a stick of rock....it would say Aston all the way through.

Ditto, and this isn't a slating of the brand more a bit of curiosity as to the lack of new material. You're right about the spending plan. There are a lot of good cars you can get for the same price as the Zagato, some of them already exist in the Aston stable. Would have loved to see a V12VR or a new DBS but I guess we'll have to wait until some other time.

[mikey k]

Nothing on any of the blogs either
I'm sat here
Waiting for some news

[George H]

Guycord said:

However, you have £405k to spend would you

a) Buy the Aston Martin V12 Vantage Zagato or

b) Buy the Ferrari F12 and V12 Vantage?

Sort of looks inconvienient for AM doesnt it?

I'll be in the minority and say the Zagato. That new Ferrari is horrible to look at imo, as per all the current range. Wouldn't have any Ferrari newer than the 360CS.

I do see your point though, hardly great value for money with the Zag.

[lady topaz]

I guess we are now in the generation where exclusivity comes with a price tag. Its not the number produced, its the price that makes the mega rich salivate.
I remember the day my OH sold his soul to the devil to buy my V12V. He informed me we were the proud owners of a car where only 1,000 would ever be produced..... in the whole world !
Yet, it appears to be not the sort after animal, the white tiger, that we envisaged. Massive depreciation, yes we got the exclusivity, but it seems that is meaningless.
Yet the fickle with not really a lot of interest in cars clamour to own such £1,000,000 plus cars Veyron, One-77 and I daresay a £400,000 plus Zigato, even though in reality it is only a pimped V12V.
A very strange world.
I for one am very interested to see the direction AM take next.

Di

[mikey k]

lady topaz said:

I guess we are now in the generation where exclusivity comes with a price tag. Its not the number produced, its the price that makes the mega rich salivate.
I remember the day my OH sold his soul to the devil to buy my V12V. He informed me we were the proud owners of a car where only 1,000 would ever be produced..... in the whole world !
Yet, it appears to be not the sort after animal, the white tiger, that we envisaged. Massive depreciation, yes we got the exclusivity, but it seems that is meaningless.
Yet the fickle with not really a lot of interest in cars clamour to own such £1,000,000 plus cars Veyron, One-77 and I daresay a £400,000 plus Zigato, even though in reality it is only a pimped V12V.
A very strange world.
I for one am very interested to see the direction AM take next.

Di

+1 same thing with the Alfa 8C

[jonby]

The Zagato is a great project - I was desperate to have one until I received the final contract with the dotty price but the fact remains, as an idea to have a stunning (in some people's eyes) low volume different bodied car it's great. But to wheel it out for 27 debuts (villa d'este, the racing car, kuwait, 3 different launches of the road going version, etc, etc) AND to effectively market it as the halo flagship car is ridiculous. It's most similar in terms of how it fits in the line up to the SA Aperta - an exciting, expensive, exclusive side project, not the car to headline the range. How often can they rely on that car grabbing them headlines !?! There is a possible explanation, which may also relate to delayed introduction of new '9/S which I refer to below, that they are prolonging how long the Zag attempts to be their main story in an effort to boosts it's sales, if perhaps they have thus far been low ?

The rapide & cygnet for different reasons are massively ill conceived and the reality is, however much you hate it, the lagonda SUV concept would have been far better commercially - just look at what Bentley are doing. It may suffer deservedly cruel jibes but it could well be like Porsche's Cayenne, which incidentally is their best selling model

They have got good at keeping plans secret but when that's combined with a lack of understanding amongst customers of where they are going, it makes buying decisions simply too difficult. Combined with all their problematic pricing issues which are the subject of long debate on their own, they are digging their own grave

I have no problem as an S owner with them improving the base Vantage, other than being p*****d off with the effect it will have on my car;s value, but again it's the marketing that;s poor - a load of hype & fanfare as if they have done something new when all they have done is made standard some of the ideas they introduced on the S. It just smacks of desperation

Going on to the famous Dr Bez comments, the V12R & the new DBS are very different stories. There has never been a shred of info from anyone whatsoever other than confirmation that Ian Minnards has been driving around in a prototype & Dr Bez saying at one lunch that it would be coming soon, in low volume, possibly to be shown at Geneva. He patently caught out the factory giving info before they were ready and possibly before they had even made a decision on when/if/etc. Their handling of the 1k limit on the coupe has been ridiculously poor, in addition to all the reasons that have been discussed before, by not just coming out & clarifying yes it's dropped, no it isn't, there is a new limit, there is no limit now, etc. Surely V12 owners at least deserve that clarification, whether they like the info or not, just to know what the new 'rules' are re V12 coupe. I suspect however (just a hunch) that the roadster (if it is going ahead - I hear not surprisingly they still have issues with rear downforce) will not be launched until coupe production definitively ceases - I can see some sense in that in fairness

On the DBS, their were suggestions from the factory well before the Bez lunch that it was coming out this yr and details would have been released by now. My best guess is that the car is taking a different direction hence the delay - perhaps the slightly surprising jump in the bhp race has partly led to a re-evaluation of what the model needs to offer ? I also have started to get the impression, just on snippets & hunches, that a '9 is now due to be shown before a DBS replacement and that it won't be long before we see it.

AM can still survive without being as techy as a Mac or as powerful/fast as a Ferrari and the VH platform is not necessarily the problem some make out. But they need to define the range both now and in terms of an outline plan going forward or else customers in the UK & the US will continue to leave the brand........

Rant over - apologies for it's length but I feel better !

[Mako V12V]

If I'm correct in thinking there's a V12V on show at Geneva, if anyone is going, can they get me the VIN for my registry and some photos! ;-)

[MartinV12]

Mako V12V said:

If I'm correct in thinking there's a V12V on show at Geneva, if anyone is going, can they get me the VIN for my registry and some photos! ;-)

I will take photos and check the VIN.

And I will most certainly p**e over the car (and any sales person beneath it) if the cars VIN is higher than 999.

[Mako V12V]

Thanks Martin.....although it could be number S01000!

[Slarti]

George H said:

I'll be in the minority and say the Zagato. That new Ferrari is horrible to look at imo, as per all the current range. Wouldn't have any Ferrari newer than the 360CS.

I do see your point though, hardly great value for money with the Zag.

F12 is far from horrible to look at IMHO and the rest of them are all drop dead stunners. I guess im just in the majority ;-) I'm seriously contemplating a 458 but I'm stingy and despise paying over the odds (and rrp) for anything, not to mention the daft depreciation that a purchase right now would have me endure. Any 360 is one of the ugliest ferraris ever designed (which isn't so bad cos ferarris are generally gorgeous)... Back to the Zag - it's bonkers. It's a lovely looking car but the price is ridiculous. I like Astons but they're not *that* good. There will be fools that pay that money, but they'll be fools that want to buy exclusivity, or fools that buy out of some 'connection' with the brand. IMHO it's a blatant rip off, emperor's clothes - call it what you will. Both the zag and one77 are turning aml into a custom coach maker.

[Murph7355]

Whilst if I were a stick of rock it would probably only say Aston part way through...maybe even only on the current wrapper...there are those who have been saying for a little while that we're concerned about what Aston has to offer moving forwards.

Cygnet - joke.

V8V - beautiful. But 8yrs old now and no sign of a replacement. It's a great car, but even when released it was tough to see it as the best in sector in many respects. The subjective things it excelled at have carried it, but for how much longer can they in today's market?

V12V - curious one. I suspect it came along a tad too late and isn't differentiated from the V8V enough to have caught the imagination of the buyers in the sector. I also think it needed something additional, even as an option - automated manual box...? Stradale/RS-ise it...? Make it different. Make it far more exciting. Almost feels they held it back to avoid hurting the DBS. I wonder if the Zagato clothing (or something that looked slightly less like a blow up doll) had been popped on it from the off, the sticker price upped 20k and no daft comments on how many they were going to build (just build in small enough numbers to keep the wait list alive) how it would have fayred.

The residual situation, IMO, is the fault of the way Aston sell cars. They did the same on the V8V. Rapide. V12V...everyone out there expects discounted list from Aston and it becomes reality. Too many ex-demos/dealer registered cars hitting the market etc.

DB9 - older in car years than most of its owners are in real ones.

Virage - as above with lipstick.

DBS - like the V8V.

Rapide - I must be curiously shaped as I think it's a decently packaged car and having been in one, kind of "get it". I'm surprised it hasn't sold better than it has (awkward rear 3/4 looks perhaps?), but see the above comment about the way Aston sell their cars. The most likely way I will buy another Aston is if I have to stop buying 2-seaters when my offspring arrives and these have stopped haemorrhaging money.

Zagato - the looks are about as shocking as the price. Irrelevance in the overall scheme of things.

One-77 - nonsensical, not very good looking, not top drawer rich man's play thing. Cost a million quid (Euros or whatever) and there are a similar number of cars I would buy ahead of one were I to have that much money. Including a lot of previous Astons.


The product needs sharpening across the range (where are the current replacements? Where's the Vanquish?), but the more I think about it, the more I'm not sure their marketing/product development people are good enough. They should poach the guys from Ferrari.

Either that or they genuinely have zero funds available.

[Rex Racer]

Murph7355 said:

Either that or they genuinely have zero funds available.

I think that's really the problem. Most of Aston's competitors are owned by huge parent companies. Aston just doesn't have the money to keep up.

[cardigankid]

Are you maybe just getting a bit too hypercritical? What of the entire range other than the Cygnet and the Zagato's intentionally offbeat mini-GTR styling, is other than a great looking superb high performance car. Why does every car manufacturer have to launch a new product at every major motor show? Does it really get us better cars? Or does it just waste money which would be better spent on other things?

Furthermore, neither AM nor any other manufacturer is in business primarily to preserve residual values. The assumption is that if you buy one you can afford to do so. They are in business to shift metal.

Imho, the manufacturer who really let themselves down at Geneva were Bentley. Apart from the grovelling speech by Mr. Durheimer, to introduce an 'innovative new Bentley' which is patently just a rehash of the Touareg/Cayenne is surely a serious dilution of brand value. Or am I misreading the current market?

[Slarti]

I would by the Rapide at the drop of a hat but it was introduced at a silly price. I think there's a real market for it, as evidenced by Panamera and to a degree Cayenne sales. Greed got the better of then sadly.

[jonby]

cardigankid said:

Are you maybe just getting a bit too hypercritical? What of the entire range other than the Cygnet and the Zagato's intentionally offbeat mini-GTR styling, is other than a great looking superb high performance car. Why does every car manufacturer have to launch a new product at every major motor show? Does it really get us better cars? Or does it just waste money which would be better spent on other things?

Furthermore, neither AM nor any other manufacturer is in business primarily to preserve residual values. The assumption is that if you buy one you can afford to do so. They are in business to shift metal.

Imho, the manufacturer who really let themselves down at Geneva were Bentley. Apart from the grovelling speech by Mr. Durheimer, to introduce an 'innovative new Bentley' which is patently just a rehash of the Touareg/Cayenne is surely a serious dilution of brand value. Or am I misreading the current market?

If a manufacturer can help residual values hold firm it

a) encourages repeat purchase into the brand (e.g. Porsche, Ferrari, Lambo, etc) rather than put people off when they come to sell for the first time and are horrified by the hit they take, which means more sales
b) helps sell new products, because it's easier to trade in your old model by the same brand, which guess what, means more sales
c) keeps the product more desirable/exclusive, because there aren't as many 'cheap' secondhand ones available and guess what, that steals sales from your competitors which surprise surprise, means more sales

That's one of the reasons I'm considering moving away from AM, because of their pricing policy. Whilst I was pleasantly surprised at the discount I got on my first AM, the over riding concern was what it meant for residuals down the line

As for BEntley, if you are going to do something that dilutes brand value, at least make it profitable so it can help fund the other products, which I suspect the SUV will do, unlike cygnet which dilutes brand AND is surely losing them money

[jonby]

Slarti said:

I would by the Rapide at the drop of a hat but it was introduced at a silly price. I think there's a real market for it, as evidenced by Panamera and to a degree Cayenne sales. Greed got the better of then sadly.

pricing is as you say daft, but that's the same to an extent with their pricing policy across the range. I like the product but it's no Panamera/Cayenne competitor nor is it a competitor for a Quattroporte. the more it's compared to these cars, the more it will suffer, just like the Vantage suffered when launched for being called the affordable, baby Aston, Porsche competitor. AM brand marketing is excellent but product marketing is p*** poor, not always helped by lazy journalism, which results in their products being mis understood

Rapide is a DB9 with proper rear seats, not a 4 door fast saloon - there's simply not enough space in the back or wide enough rear door openings to be called the latter but as the former, it's excellent. Should have been called a LWB DB9 IMO