Geneva 2012

[Jockman]

jonby said:

That would be absolutely great except for one thing - they do over supply - they should be producing about 1k less cars per year based on the current line up

Jonby, I realise that production of the rapide is moving to Gaydon but I didn't realise that there was a glut of Astons parked up somewhere unsold as per the mass producers

[jonby]

Jockman said:

Jonby, I realise that production of the rapide is moving to Gaydon but I didn't realise that there was a glut of Astons parked up somewhere unsold as per the mass producers

Ha !

They committed to Rapide production in Austria when overall sales were at their peak. But when demand fell off, they ended up with surplus capacity at Gaydon so they have had to buy their way out of the deal in Austria to make use of the over capacity at Gaydon

They have been overproducing cars in the uk for 2-3 yrs. That's why I bought my first roadster, immediately after a new model year introduction, with all the latest bits & pcs, for 25k below list as a brand new unregistered car. I'm not exactly the only one ! The factory & the dealers have been speccing cars up rather than buyers, hence the lack of originality with say interiors, where they are scared to spec many in anything other than obsidian black

They produce cars then try to find buyers, hence the huge discounts. If they produced a few less, they wouldn't have to discount so heavily. Simple supply & demand. I didn;t say there were 1,000 cars floating around, just that they produce 1,000 too many

Ferrari could produce & sell at lest 30-40% more cars than they do. But they keep the supply/demand ratio very tight, no discounts, better image, better resale, better brand loyalty and most importantly.....far more profit per car. Imagine all the extra money added to the bottom line if AM sold 25% less cars but made an extra £20k per car by selling them all at full list price. THey can't of course, because the factory carries the fixed overheads geared to greater production

[Murph7355]

Neil1300R said:

Please can we all stop this on the Cygnet! Dr Bez has publicly stated it is NOT for EU legislation as Aston build under 10,000 units per annum. It's because he thought it was a good idea.

Do you have a place where that is quoted?

I 100% knew the EU angle was all bs, but would still be nice to see it quoted somewhere. Even if it won't stop people believing the spin! Especially those of the rose tinted spectacle fraternity.

[Murph7355]

Jockman said:

Jonby, I realise that production of the rapide is moving to Gaydon but I didn't realise that there was a glut of Astons parked up somewhere unsold as per the mass producers

Listen to jonby Jockers, he's speaking perfect sense.

It may not be palatable to some, but the logic is plain and simple.

Aston has a brand that could readily compete with the likes of Ferrari. Its designers (mostly. And when not being distracted by the boss' follies) can cut it too. The accountants and product planners/pushers need a long hard rethink though. And I'm not so optimistic on that front.

[Jockman]

Murph7355 said:

Listen to jonby Jockers, he's speaking perfect sense.

It may not be palatable to some...

I am sMurph....and I know he is...

Aston is doing what it needs to do in a harsh climate. It would be a brave company that decides to downsell in a recessionary period - my company did it and it made more money, as Jonby rightly says.

The only problem is that when the benign times returned, those lost customers never returned despite heavy enducements.

Aston does from time to time retain more profit than much bigger companies. I predict it will be making cars for many years to come. I also predict we shall be having this discussion for many years to come.

[Neil1300R]

Murph7355 said:

Neil1300R said:

Please can we all stop this on the Cygnet! Dr Bez has publicly stated it is NOT for EU legislation as Aston build under 10,000 units per annum. It's because he thought it was a good idea.

Do you have a place where that is quoted?

I 100% knew the EU angle was all bs, but would still be nice to see it quoted somewhere. Even if it won't stop people believing the spin! Especially those of the rose tinted spectacle fraternity.

See this article for Dr Bez's statement re Cygnet and emissions.

http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/55000-ci...

[Neil1300R]

Murph7355 said:

Listen to jonby Jockers, he's speaking perfect sense.

It may not be palatable to some, but the logic is plain and simple.

Aston has a brand that could readily compete with the likes of Ferrari. Its designers (mostly. And when not being distracted by the boss' follies) can cut it too. The accountants and product planners/pushers need a long hard rethink though. And I'm not so optimistic on that front.

Sales are up 12% from same quarter last year.
They recognise the packaging is wrong on the Rapide and are looking at it (Chinese like to be driven)
They want to differentiate the DB9 and the Virage more
New DBS will be more than just a DB9 with knobs on
New Vantage will come down slightly in price and possibly performance

So everything is fine No it isn't but at least Aston are recognising the mistakes and the changes they need to make. The big disappointment for me was nothing really new announced at Geneva.
And yes I am another one that if you cut me in half I am that Aston Martin stick of rock

[yeti]

Yeah me too on the stick of rock front but only because I can make my Aston what I need it to be.

It's a real shame they couldn't come up with a show stopper, even if they'd just re-bodied a V8 Roadster as a V12! Just something

[Vantagefan]

Neil1300R said:

Murph7355 said:

Neil1300R said:

Please can we all stop this on the Cygnet! Dr Bez has publicly stated it is NOT for EU legislation as Aston build under 10,000 units per annum. It's because he thought it was a good idea.

Do you have a place where that is quoted?

I 100% knew the EU angle was all bs, but would still be nice to see it quoted somewhere. Even if it won't stop people believing the spin! Especially those of the rose tinted spectacle fraternity.

See this article for Dr Bez's statement re Cygnet and emissions.

http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/55000-ci...

I loved reading that article, thanks for posting it!

It's good to see I'm not the only one prone to childish rants...

[George H]

Neil1300R said:

See this article for Dr Bez's statement re Cygnet and emissions.

http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/55000-ci...

I love the dig at the Bentley CGT for being based on a VW Phaeton

[Vantagefan]

"No one cares!"

Maybe not about the GTC, because it visually looks very different but judging by the average response people are very aware of the donor car for the Cygnet and they care very much!

[cardigankid]

Just to temper all this negativism about Aston Martin, I have just seen a new 991 parked out on the street.

It is ugly. Porsche have lost it in a big way. It is like a 997 but with everything a bit wrong. They have ripped off the little aerofoil detail from the back of the latest Astons. Parts of the car especially the front wings look as if they are melting. The script on the tail is crass and 50's old fashioned. It is about the size of a Mondeo and the overall effect is old man's car ORDINARY in block capitals. The roof is bulbous. It is like a mini-Panamera. It's just a stockbroker's car, and the styling is incompetent.

There is no Aston I wouldn't want. Their cars are beautiful. They may need continuing improvement but they don't need changing. If they keep their nerve the day when they can take the 911 is almost here. A 991 C2S at £86k or a 2013 Vantage at £85k? No contest.

[CPBRI]

cardigankid said:

I have just seen a new 991 parked out on the street.

It is ugly

Opinions vary.

[Vantagefan]

On the 991 I like everything back from the door handle. I imagine that Dr Bez is maybe taking a Porsche approach to evolution rather than revolution whereas I'm hungry to see an 'Arab Spring' equivalent in design and performance.

Widespread political uprising as a metaphor for car design. Don't worry, I'll go have a word with myself.

[cardigankid]

If you half shut your eyes and look at it from the right angles it looks ok, but what's right about it is all 997. What's wrong about it is everything else. You can tell a Jaguar XF coming from a long way away. It looks right and it looks like a Jag. This thing looks like a Panamera, and the Panamera in turn looks like a VW variant.

The roof line in particular is a total disaster. Does rear headroom matter that much in a 911?

One day Porsche are going to wake up and find that people won't just buy anything they churn out because it has a Porsche badge on it, and they will wonder what went wrong. What went wrong is what they are doing now.

[George H]

cardigankid said:

If you half shut your eyes and look at it from the right angles it looks ok, but what's right about it is all 997. What's wrong about it is everything else. You can tell a Jaguar XF coming from a long way away. It looks right and it looks like a Jag. This thing looks like a Panamera, and the Panamera in turn looks like a VW variant.

The roof line in particular is a total disaster. Does rear headroom matter that much in a 911?

One day Porsche are going to wake up and find that people won't just buy anything they churn out because it has a Porsche badge on it, and they will wonder what went wrong. What went wrong is what they are doing now.

I disagree completely, the new 991 is the best looking Porsche since the 993 imo. The back end of it is fantastic. I wouldn't have one over a V8V, but I suspect in terms of performance it will run rings around the Aston.

[yeti]

George H said:

I suspect in terms of performance it will run rings around the Aston.

This is always the thing... in the hands of an expert driver on a circuit, maybe.

Driving together on your favourite public road, there will be nothing to seperate them. Fast cars are fast, I have found this on many trips across Europe with everything from 70s DeTomaso salooons to souped-up Elises. Anything with over 200bhp/ton on the road is quick, tenths here and there make no difference. This year I will be joing the De_Tomaso owners club for a tour of the Loire before Classic Le Mans, but in my 140bhp Alfa Vs a dozen 350bhp Panteras... well I'll be playing catch up, I know that

991 or 4.7 Vantage, would be the Vantage every time for me and I am also a Porsche fan.

Especially as a decent 997 Cabrio can be had for £20k! Better looking, slimmer, more lithe and just as quick in my cack-hands.

[Shmee]

Mako V12V said:

If I'm correct in thinking there's a V12V on show at Geneva, if anyone is going, can they get me the VIN for my registry and some photos! ;-)

I have a photo of both the car and the VIN for you, I will try to remember to send them through tonight.

ETA: The vin definitely ended S00864 for what it's worth.

Edited by Shmee on Friday 9th March 09:00

[Murph7355]

Neil1300R said:

See this article for Dr Bez's statement re Cygnet and emissions.

http://news.drive.com.au/drive/motor-news/55000-ci...

Thanks Neil.

Reading the utter tosh that man said makes me even more concerned about the future of the company. There's a lot to be said for single minded determination and drive...but he's sounding a bit more "Fred Goodwin" than "Enzo Ferrari" to me in that article.

article said:

"Did you ask the people who make the comments whether they are Aston Martin owners?" Dr Bez asks. "Because I need to ask my customers, and these are the people who are supporting us."

I'd like to see the results of the feedback he's asked for. I don't recall seeing any questionnaires come out to current owners/purchasers. And there aren't too many (customers) on here who are applauding the thing.

article said:

"People today don't ask what sort of processor is in an iPhone. They don't ask where it is built. It is built in China. They don't care. Who cares that a Bentley Continental GT is based on a Volkswagen Phaeton? Nobody cares.

iPhones? Yes Dr Bez, because the purchase of a 500GBP gadget (a category of item oft associated with manufacture in the Far East) is perfectly comparable to buying a 100k prestige vehicle. Or a 35k tarted up Toyota. If someone in your company is telling you this, sack them.

As for the Bentley...I think you'll find a lot of traditional Aston buyers *do* care. As do buyers of Ferraris, Lambos, Porsches etc. League One footballers and many more evidently don't. I guess it depends who your target market is.

article said:

"I don't need the Cygnet to make my fleet [average] go down,"

Then why, apparently, do your dealers tell your customers that you do? Allowing a myth to be perpetuated? Are they perhaps a tad embarrassed about the thing and need an excuse to sell it?

article said:

"And I can tell you that most of the people who buy the One-77 [Aston's most expensive, exclusive car], a 7.5-litre car with 750 horsepower, buy a Cygnet. So it can't be that this Cygnet destroys the brand."

I'm not massively sure that buying a One-77 necessarily makes one an arbiter of fine taste. Also remind us...how many have been sold? And despite the hullabaloo made on the sale of the One-77, how many were sold to the same person...? Is it another product that hasn't quite worked out as expected?

[Murph7355]

cardigankid said:

...
There is no Aston I wouldn't want. Their cars are beautiful. They may need continuing improvement but they don't need changing. If they keep their nerve the day when they can take the 911 is almost here. A 991 C2S at £86k or a 2013 Vantage at £85k? No contest.

How well specified is the 86k 991 versus the 85k Aston?

I would like to bet that the 991 will still outsell the Aston by some margin. Which I'm happy about as I think Aston need to encourage exclusivity, not reduce it. Which is why I can't see the logic in lowering the Vantage's price and performance point (we can't make the products higher up the range better, so we'll make the lower end stuff worse).

Also, we have to look over the horizon a little...the new Jag looks like it might be ironing out some of the wrinkles that persuaded many of us to ignore their products to date...and that will make the Porsche and Aston look expensive.