Discussion
DB9VolanteDriver said:
Having Mahindra take over AM just follows on in the tradition of DB. What is old is new again...
'All this has happned before and will happen again'/Battlestar Galactica
There is a certain symmetry in Aston being taken over by a tractor maker again though. But not a necessarily a pleasant one. Mahindra are no Lamborghini or DB for that matter.
Edited by yeti on Monday 26th November 14:21
I discussed this in my dealers on Monday, his opinion was that Tata is favourite and also the most desirable based on what they did with JLR.
Toyota will have the clout to buy and invest, if they want a halo brand, and it was Toyota that changed the face of vehicle manufacturing, and other sectors too. A large chunk of their manufacturing methodology would not be unwelcome in AM, who have too many (minor) known issues for too long a time period.
As regards the asking price discussed on another thread, if Dar want the cash for other issues they face, then they will negotiate and they'll have to take the hit, just like others who make unwise investments ( unless you are a bank and then the tax payer absorbs your risks).
Toyota will have the clout to buy and invest, if they want a halo brand, and it was Toyota that changed the face of vehicle manufacturing, and other sectors too. A large chunk of their manufacturing methodology would not be unwelcome in AM, who have too many (minor) known issues for too long a time period.
As regards the asking price discussed on another thread, if Dar want the cash for other issues they face, then they will negotiate and they'll have to take the hit, just like others who make unwise investments ( unless you are a bank and then the tax payer absorbs your risks).
Question: Would you buy an Aston Martin with a Toyota engine? For me; not a problem as long as it has been modified exensively to give it a unique charater. But the Lotus Evora suffers from Toyota-enginitis and people seem to be put off by it... maybe not enough changes to the standard unit? I a Toyota engine any 'worse' than having a Duratec based V12? Such is life when you're a small manufacturer.
Would you drive an Aston with a Jag engine? No need to answer that as the kiddie's Aston uses it already. But if TATA bought them, they'd have access to the Supercharged lump
Would Jaguar build a V12 or just bang the Vanquish equivalent out the door with an even more powerful SC V8? I think the 'Super GT' needs to have something more special than the same engine as the F-Type though.
Lots to think about; I would be happy with either buyer and would be confident they would do right by the brand. Who didn't have dpubts about TATA buying JLR. Now they're making maybe the best range of vehicles in the world! New lightweight Rangie, Evoque, XF Sportbrake, F-Type to name a few. What a product range, not a car I wouldn't wish to own!
Would you drive an Aston with a Jag engine? No need to answer that as the kiddie's Aston uses it already. But if TATA bought them, they'd have access to the Supercharged lump
Would Jaguar build a V12 or just bang the Vanquish equivalent out the door with an even more powerful SC V8? I think the 'Super GT' needs to have something more special than the same engine as the F-Type though.
Lots to think about; I would be happy with either buyer and would be confident they would do right by the brand. Who didn't have dpubts about TATA buying JLR. Now they're making maybe the best range of vehicles in the world! New lightweight Rangie, Evoque, XF Sportbrake, F-Type to name a few. What a product range, not a car I wouldn't wish to own!
yeti said:
Would Jaguar build a V12...
To be honest, I doubt any manufacturer would develop a V12 from scratch now. They would probably go FI on a V8 sadly 
Btw, my mate sent me this the other day - you reminded me about your point about DB owning Aston before:
Apparently Aston should be proud of their David Brown tractor heritage!
From todays telegraph, the plot thickens:
By James Hurley7:30PM GMT 23 Nov 201217 Comments
Investindustrial is understood to have made a bid of around £250m for the luxury carmaker, famous as the vehicle of choice of James Bond. The private equity house faces competition from Indian manufacturer Mahindra & Mahindra, which is understood to have made a higher offer.
The Italian firm is optimistic that Aston Martin’s Kuwaiti owners, The Investment Dar, will favour its plans to invest in new technology.
Investindustrial is planning to make AMG, the Mercedes subsidiary a technical partner on the deal, enabling it to bring high-performance engineering expertise to the table.
The bids from both Investindustrial and Mahindra & Mahindra are thought to include plans to keep production at Aston Martin’s headquarters and plant in Gaydon, Warwickshire.
The Investment Dar, a Kuwaiti finance firm, will retain the remaining stake.
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A spokesman for Investindustrial declined to comment. Aston Martin and Mahindra & Mahindra could not be reached for comment.
By James Hurley7:30PM GMT 23 Nov 201217 Comments
Investindustrial is understood to have made a bid of around £250m for the luxury carmaker, famous as the vehicle of choice of James Bond. The private equity house faces competition from Indian manufacturer Mahindra & Mahindra, which is understood to have made a higher offer.
The Italian firm is optimistic that Aston Martin’s Kuwaiti owners, The Investment Dar, will favour its plans to invest in new technology.
Investindustrial is planning to make AMG, the Mercedes subsidiary a technical partner on the deal, enabling it to bring high-performance engineering expertise to the table.
The bids from both Investindustrial and Mahindra & Mahindra are thought to include plans to keep production at Aston Martin’s headquarters and plant in Gaydon, Warwickshire.
The Investment Dar, a Kuwaiti finance firm, will retain the remaining stake.
RELATED ARTICLES
Aston Martin boss considers £1bn IPO 03 Jul 2010
Comet faces 'online-only' future 23 Nov 2012
A spokesman for Investindustrial declined to comment. Aston Martin and Mahindra & Mahindra could not be reached for comment.
my 2pence on this…. Having a PE firm control AM ( in InvestIndustrials own words they are “control investors”) would not focus on innovation. More how to grow revenue and margin. These guys are investing from fund 4 launched 2008 so at the end of their investment period with 5 or 6 years to get results and get a sale. Surely better to have AM as a prestige brand for another car maker, that way the dollar spend can also be justified in helping mainstream sales by association. We need the new owner to have a passion for cars and a long term view. Wonder what other oil money is looking at this deal because its certainly a prestige brand……
yeti said:
Would you drive an Aston with a Jag engine? No need to answer that as the kiddie's Aston uses it already. But if TATA bought them, they'd have access to the Supercharged lump
Would Jaguar build a V12 or just bang the Vanquish equivalent out the door with an even more powerful SC V8? I think the 'Super GT' needs to have something more special than the same engine as the F-Type though.
...and there lies the problem. Within 6 months, the whole thing would be rendered down for scrap as so only a pair of white emamel wings remain, stuck onto a Jag.Would Jaguar build a V12 or just bang the Vanquish equivalent out the door with an even more powerful SC V8? I think the 'Super GT' needs to have something more special than the same engine as the F-Type though.
Indeed we would be back to a "Jag in a Party-Frock" mentality again.
Guycord said:
yeti said:
Would you drive an Aston with a Jag engine? No need to answer that as the kiddie's Aston uses it already. But if TATA bought them, they'd have access to the Supercharged lump
Would Jaguar build a V12 or just bang the Vanquish equivalent out the door with an even more powerful SC V8? I think the 'Super GT' needs to have something more special than the same engine as the F-Type though.
...and there lies the problem. Within 6 months, the whole thing would be rendered down for scrap as so only a pair of white emamel wings remain, stuck onto a Jag.Would Jaguar build a V12 or just bang the Vanquish equivalent out the door with an even more powerful SC V8? I think the 'Super GT' needs to have something more special than the same engine as the F-Type though.
Indeed we would be back to a "Jag in a Party-Frock" mentality again.
According to Reurers deal expected to finalise this weekend:-
Investindustrial reached a agreement with Kuwaiti investment house Investment Dar, which owns Aston Martin, on Thursday but afterwards Mahindra made a higher counter bid, the source said.
"They are in talks. A deal is expected to be finalized over the weekend," the source said.
A spokesman for Investment Dar was not immediately available for comment, nor could Mahindra be reached for comment.
The source said Investindustrial had made a bid worth between 200 million and 250 million pounds ($400 million) for the stake and was confident in winning the race because its proposal was "technically" superior.
It said Investindustrial had agreed a technical partnership deal with Daimler AG's (DAIGn.DE) Mercedes.
Investindustrial, owned by Italy's Bonomi family, is not new luxury motor brands. In 2006, t bought Italian motorcycle maker Ducati and sold it for about 860 million euros last April to Volkswagen's (VOWG_p.DE) Audi division.
Investindustrial reached a agreement with Kuwaiti investment house Investment Dar, which owns Aston Martin, on Thursday but afterwards Mahindra made a higher counter bid, the source said.
"They are in talks. A deal is expected to be finalized over the weekend," the source said.
A spokesman for Investment Dar was not immediately available for comment, nor could Mahindra be reached for comment.
The source said Investindustrial had made a bid worth between 200 million and 250 million pounds ($400 million) for the stake and was confident in winning the race because its proposal was "technically" superior.
It said Investindustrial had agreed a technical partnership deal with Daimler AG's (DAIGn.DE) Mercedes.
Investindustrial, owned by Italy's Bonomi family, is not new luxury motor brands. In 2006, t bought Italian motorcycle maker Ducati and sold it for about 860 million euros last April to Volkswagen's (VOWG_p.DE) Audi division.
kabman said:
Really? It wasn't very long ago when Jaguar and AML had a common owner. And that was arguably the company's most sucessful period in terms of both engineering and sales.
True, and to get the cashflow moving, they shared a platform. Once done, they then diverged with the VH platform. Point being made is for a company like TATA who own JLR, what is the most profitable way forward? I doubt the Indians will be doing it for the preservation of the Brand.
Personally, if it were not for Dar looking to get shut of the stake, I would opt for AML doing a "Cygnet" and getting into a supply-only partnership witha Toyota for that High-end V10 and any other variants of it. Ship'em over, un-pack them at Cosworth, a dab of British spit, polish and tune and the jobs a good'en. Straight into a VH unit and away you go.
Looks like we've gone back to being a half tractor company:
Reuters) - Aston Martin stands at the centre of an international takeover battle after Indian motors group Mahindra trumped an Italian bid for half of the British luxury car maker.
From Reuters, 3.10pm 24/11/12, says they bid more, but nobody is available for comment from Dar, the Indian firm or the Ialian firm. Has the fat lady sang then in this investment injection or is the still a possibility of some gazumping?
And of course, what will it mean for AM? The Italian firm were claiming they had AMG on board, lets hope if Reuters is accurate that Dar have not gone for a short term cash benefit over longer term potential that AMG would bring.
Reuters) - Aston Martin stands at the centre of an international takeover battle after Indian motors group Mahindra trumped an Italian bid for half of the British luxury car maker.
From Reuters, 3.10pm 24/11/12, says they bid more, but nobody is available for comment from Dar, the Indian firm or the Ialian firm. Has the fat lady sang then in this investment injection or is the still a possibility of some gazumping?
And of course, what will it mean for AM? The Italian firm were claiming they had AMG on board, lets hope if Reuters is accurate that Dar have not gone for a short term cash benefit over longer term potential that AMG would bring.
Zod said:
The position is becoming clearer: AML is looking for an equity injection with DAR retaining its stake. Favourites to invest are Mahindra and a PE firm.
So, with 50% being spoken about, a single shareholder will no loner have a majority stake. Usually better.Also, raising additional funds through equity, makes for a safer future, than by taking on more debt.
Edited by Jon39 on Sunday 25th November 10:11
steveatesh said:
Looks like we've gone back to being a half tractor company:
Reuters) - Aston Martin stands at the centre of an international takeover battle after Indian motors group Mahindra trumped an Italian bid for half of the British luxury car maker.
From Reuters, 3.10pm 24/11/12, says they bid more, but nobody is available for comment from Dar, the Indian firm or the Ialian firm. Has the fat lady sang then in this investment injection or is the still a possibility of some gazumping?
And of course, what will it mean for AM? The Italian firm were claiming they had AMG on board, lets hope if Reuters is accurate that Dar have not gone for a short term cash benefit over longer term potential that AMG would bring.
It's not a takeover battle. They are merely bidding for an equity stake.Reuters) - Aston Martin stands at the centre of an international takeover battle after Indian motors group Mahindra trumped an Italian bid for half of the British luxury car maker.
From Reuters, 3.10pm 24/11/12, says they bid more, but nobody is available for comment from Dar, the Indian firm or the Ialian firm. Has the fat lady sang then in this investment injection or is the still a possibility of some gazumping?
And of course, what will it mean for AM? The Italian firm were claiming they had AMG on board, lets hope if Reuters is accurate that Dar have not gone for a short term cash benefit over longer term potential that AMG would bring.
Zod said:
It's not a takeover battle. They are merely bidding for an equity stake.
You are right of course when I've re read it. It also reads that MM are keen to access Aston technology to improve their own vehicle side. Am I reading it right, that if the Indian company is putting in a cash some in order to use AM tech in their own vehicles, but the Italian company appear to want to put cash in with a view to improving tech in AM, presumably to do a Ducati and actually improve the product and therefore the value of the company so they can sell it on later in much better shape? brakedwell said:
I can't imagine why M & M would want to build a tractor on a VH platform with carbon fibre splitters and a crystal ECU. Lets hope the Italians win the day and some sort of tie up with AMG comes about.
+1 well said. Need an investor with a vision of what AM can be, not one that will siphon off the core competence for building their own products.George29 said:
yeti said:
Would Jaguar build a V12...
To be honest, I doubt any manufacturer would develop a V12 from scratch now. They would probably go FI on a V8 sadly Btw, my mate sent me this the other day - you reminded me about your point about DB owning Aston before:
Apparently Aston should be proud of their David Brown tractor heritage!
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