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In these times of globalisation does it actually matter where the products are manufactured as long they are class leading in quality and performance. Apple says "Designed in Cuppertino" on its bits and pieces. and i think that for Aston it is pretty much the same: Designed in Gaydon. (The engine is from Cologne, the VH platform is from Norsk Hydro in Norway/Denmark, the gearbox and the brakes are from Italy, the cow hides are from Scotland and the lady stitching it all together is probably from Kuala Lumpur but lives in Bedford.
So its Aston Martin - designed in Gaydon
.... and run by a German.
So its Aston Martin - designed in Gaydon
.... and run by a German.
Speedraser said:
No car company (as far as I know) now makes its own gearboxes or differentials and, except during the very early history of the car, almost no one has.
- you should take a trip to far-away, mythical land called 'Deutschland'.There you will find operations English/American £/$1,500 per diem management consultants said 30 years ago were pre-destined to fail, be overrun by Jap competitors - then the flavour of the month with these a$$hats - due to their outdated levels of deep vertical integration. Funny thing is, 30 yrs on, they're still there, and more successful than ever, threatening to, if not already dominating, the whole global auto industry.
Mercedes-Benz makes all of its gearboxes and many of its axles/diffs, particularly when the truck&bus division is included. VW group makes most if not all of its gearboxes. Separately, when not making in-house their own transmissions, Germany has two of the leading, if not pre-eminent transmission firms in the world, ZF and Getrag.
VW has its own foundry in Kassel for making its castings.
The point is, contrary to the BS fed to MBA saps wasting £30k/yr on an 'education' in English/American business schools, there is nothing inherently wrong with in-house operations; not everything must be outsourced according to some physical law of the universe, as if it was 3rd law of thermo.-like entropy, that cannot be resisted.
The consultants/MBA school BSers, who loathe real manufacturing, and getting 'on-hands' dirty, would have you believe a Ford Dagenham 1930-1980 style operation or an Austin Longbridge in its heyday op., or a Ford River Rouge complex type operation belongs consigned to the long outdated past.
Well, VW group and Mercedes in the 21st century have levels of vertical integration not dissimilar to Henry Ford's original concept of iron ore in finished vehicle out type operations in Dearborn.
Point is, don't always believe "received wisdom". Challenge perceived 'wisdom' with your own god-given intelligence, and try to reason something from first principles. The world today is full of charlatans, professing to have some deity-like special knowledge, to help them avoid having to make an honest, hard living.
ps Mercedes' own fully in-house designed and to be produced 9-speed auto is due in the next 12 months.
Imho an Aston can only be an AM if it has an engine that is not available in any other production car.
I feel that it may just be exceptable to use another engine that has been altered sufficiently to make it unique to an AM rather like the Rover BASED TVR's. One of the main reasons we buy the cars we do is the way they make you feel. I bought my Cerbera because the engine was a TVR engine designed and built purely for them and the fact that it was hand built by some British blokes in a shed in Blackpool. When the Cerbera came out I loved the fact that it could blow away a Ferrari and a 911 turbo and made by a tiny British company with very little resources. If I had just wanted total efficiency I would have bought a Skyline. It's the same with my DB7 VV, its a right old donkey compaired to a lot of cars but I wanted an Aston and thats one of the reasons for buying the car.
An Aston with an ordinary Merc engine in it just wouldn't be an Aston.
I feel that it may just be exceptable to use another engine that has been altered sufficiently to make it unique to an AM rather like the Rover BASED TVR's. One of the main reasons we buy the cars we do is the way they make you feel. I bought my Cerbera because the engine was a TVR engine designed and built purely for them and the fact that it was hand built by some British blokes in a shed in Blackpool. When the Cerbera came out I loved the fact that it could blow away a Ferrari and a 911 turbo and made by a tiny British company with very little resources. If I had just wanted total efficiency I would have bought a Skyline. It's the same with my DB7 VV, its a right old donkey compaired to a lot of cars but I wanted an Aston and thats one of the reasons for buying the car.
An Aston with an ordinary Merc engine in it just wouldn't be an Aston.
George29 said:
In what way is the M159 6.2V8 an 'ordinary Merc engine'? In SLS GT spec it's producing 580+ bhp and in SLS Black series spec it's 620+.
Hardly an 'ordinary' engine is it?
Ok, so ordinary in the case of that engine may not be the correct term. The point I was making was that if you 'only' got the same engine in your new Aston as there was available in a Merc, then in my opinion that would dilute the 'Astonness' of the car and not make it as exclusive or desirable as an AM should be. It may well be that that engine is a fantastic and possibly superior engine to any current AM power plant, but I wouldn't want exactly the same engine in my new Aston.Hardly an 'ordinary' engine is it?
This argument is a bit like when Japanese motorbikes arrived on the scene - the "purists" (aka luddites) sneered at this mass produced, inferior product.
As they were blown into the weeds in terms of performance, economy, cost of ownership, reliability, build quality and the ability to use the machine without carrying a litre of oil to replace that which leaked on the floor.
Familiarity with what's under the bonnet for (I suspect) the majority of Aston owners is limited to the big letters and numbers on the top of the casting.
This is my first Aston - I bought it because I liked the looks, the noise, the handling and the braking. I couldn't give a flying **** where the engine originated and as I said earlier in this post, the vital statistics of the engines is not something of which to be proud, indeed I honestly believe they let down the rest of the cars.
As they were blown into the weeds in terms of performance, economy, cost of ownership, reliability, build quality and the ability to use the machine without carrying a litre of oil to replace that which leaked on the floor.
Familiarity with what's under the bonnet for (I suspect) the majority of Aston owners is limited to the big letters and numbers on the top of the casting.
This is my first Aston - I bought it because I liked the looks, the noise, the handling and the braking. I couldn't give a flying **** where the engine originated and as I said earlier in this post, the vital statistics of the engines is not something of which to be proud, indeed I honestly believe they let down the rest of the cars.
An Aston is more than the sum of its parts.
Designed in the UK, developed in the UK and assembled in the UK and bringing together some of the best names in parts within that process. Brembo brakes are very good, Graziano and ZF gearboxes, Bosch electronics and European leather stitched together on site. The fact the over 80% of a car from the seed of an idea to it rolling off the line to go to a customer occurs in the UK seems to be quickly ignored if the money behind it isn't local, or if some of the parts aren't sourced in the UK.
This may offend some, and it's not intended to, but would you prefer an Aston was British, or the best?
Designed in the UK, developed in the UK and assembled in the UK and bringing together some of the best names in parts within that process. Brembo brakes are very good, Graziano and ZF gearboxes, Bosch electronics and European leather stitched together on site. The fact the over 80% of a car from the seed of an idea to it rolling off the line to go to a customer occurs in the UK seems to be quickly ignored if the money behind it isn't local, or if some of the parts aren't sourced in the UK.
This may offend some, and it's not intended to, but would you prefer an Aston was British, or the best?
verminator said:
Imho an Aston can only be an AM if it has an engine that is not available in any other production car.
I feel that it may just be exceptable to use another engine that has been altered sufficiently to make it unique to an AM rather like the Rover BASED TVR's. One of the main reasons we buy the cars we do is the way they make you feel. I bought my Cerbera because the engine was a TVR engine designed and built purely for them and the fact that it was hand built by some British blokes in a shed in Blackpool. When the Cerbera came out I loved the fact that it could blow away a Ferrari and a 911 turbo and made by a tiny British company with very little resources. If I had just wanted total efficiency I would have bought a Skyline. It's the same with my DB7 VV, its a right old donkey compaired to a lot of cars but I wanted an Aston and thats one of the reasons for buying the car.
An Aston with an ordinary Merc engine in it just wouldn't be an Aston.
The current V12 isn't in any other car.I feel that it may just be exceptable to use another engine that has been altered sufficiently to make it unique to an AM rather like the Rover BASED TVR's. One of the main reasons we buy the cars we do is the way they make you feel. I bought my Cerbera because the engine was a TVR engine designed and built purely for them and the fact that it was hand built by some British blokes in a shed in Blackpool. When the Cerbera came out I loved the fact that it could blow away a Ferrari and a 911 turbo and made by a tiny British company with very little resources. If I had just wanted total efficiency I would have bought a Skyline. It's the same with my DB7 VV, its a right old donkey compaired to a lot of cars but I wanted an Aston and thats one of the reasons for buying the car.
An Aston with an ordinary Merc engine in it just wouldn't be an Aston.
ds2000 said:
I think its almost ignorant to think that Aston would just take a MB engine off the shelf. I could see more of a "here's an engine guys, have fun" approach.
I wouldn't be so sureAM has built the VH ethos around interchangeable parts, they do not "fettle" the Brembo brakes, Graziano gearbox, Caparo torque tube or any other bought in components.
mikey k said:
I wouldn't be so sure
AM has built the VH ethos around interchangeable parts, they do not "fettle" the Brembo brakes, Graziano gearbox, Caparo torque tube or any other bought in components.
Sounds like a good thing to me. Why fettle something designed supposedly by the experts, and since the brands you mentioned are very highly regarded in all of their respective fields, I don't see how it's an issue. AM has built the VH ethos around interchangeable parts, they do not "fettle" the Brembo brakes, Graziano gearbox, Caparo torque tube or any other bought in components.
Benzpassion,
To be honest, I was thinking more about manual 'boxes, but you're obviously correct that M-B makes its own -- excellent -- autoboxes. I don't have any interest in those
By most accounts their manuals aren't much good to use, though.
By the way, why are you so angry at MBAs?
To be honest, I was thinking more about manual 'boxes, but you're obviously correct that M-B makes its own -- excellent -- autoboxes. I don't have any interest in those
By most accounts their manuals aren't much good to use, though.By the way, why are you so angry at MBAs?
George29 said:
mikey k said:
I wouldn't be so sure
AM has built the VH ethos around interchangeable parts, they do not "fettle" the Brembo brakes, Graziano gearbox, Caparo torque tube or any other bought in components.
Sounds like a good thing to me. Why fettle something designed supposedly by the experts, and since the brands you mentioned are very highly regarded in all of their respective fields, I don't see how it's an issue. AM has built the VH ethos around interchangeable parts, they do not "fettle" the Brembo brakes, Graziano gearbox, Caparo torque tube or any other bought in components.
Vantagefan said:
would you prefer an Aston was British, or the best?
Well put 
Being both would be great, and in 2004 that was indeed the case. The DB9 was peerless in its day.
A fettled Merc engine which will sound different and perform differently to it's MB application would be a marvellous addition to any AM. The engine is indeed the 'heart' of any car and AMG seem to imbue their vehicles with passion and performance. VH as a platform has plenty of life left in it, with a regulations compliant engine, interesting gearboxes (though certainly no manual option) they could and will make a world class car.
Mercedes motorsport heritage is vastly more impressive than Astons as well
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