As Heaven 17 said "Tempppppppppppppp - tation"
Discussion
jonby said:
The beauty of V12VR (for me) is that it is seriously rare & collectible
Jonby,There is absolutely no point to this post but I've been wanting to get it off my chest for a while. Back in the 80's I walked into "Bramleys" showroom in Surrey. The first car I saw was a Ferrari Daytona Spyder RHD. Price tag hanging on the rear view mirror £1M. This is/was one of only seven RHD cars ever made. To me this is seriously rare & collectible.
Ever since that day we have seen manufacturers constantly churn out "limited edition" models. IMHO it has become so common that it simply detracts from the rarity factor, everybody does it.
Rant over.
Well known I dont do soft tops but your car is stunning
Nick
AMDBSNick said:
jonby said:
The beauty of V12VR (for me) is that it is seriously rare & collectible
Jonby,There is absolutely no point to this post but I've been wanting to get it off my chest for a while. Back in the 80's I walked into "Bramleys" showroom in Surrey. The first car I saw was a Ferrari Daytona Spyder RHD. Price tag hanging on the rear view mirror £1M. This is/was one of only seven RHD cars ever made. To me this is seriously rare & collectible.
Ever since that day we have seen manufacturers constantly churn out "limited edition" models. IMHO it has become so common that it simply detracts from the rarity factor, everybody does it.
Rant over.
Well known I dont do soft tops but your car is stunning
Nick
of course V12VR cannot be compared to the example you give. In fact putting to oneside the strict definition of rare, even if they had produced 150 V12 Zags compared to 101 V12VRs, the former would be more deserving of the title. My point was these cars won't on the whole, be treated as 'that type of car' and as such, I think it's a good thing
As for ltd ed.s in general, I think the difference is that the majority of classic cars now seen as rare were never produced as 'ltd editions', they simply made fewer of those kinds of cars.
But rarity cannot just be judged on total numbers produced, it also has to be compared to demand - they produced 600 4.0 GT3 RS 911s, which is a limited edition of a limited adition of a limited edition (4.0, to normal RS, to GT3) but it's still hyper desirable and holding it's value well. F40s & Dino are more sought after than ever. But they haven't produced that many Veyrons and their value is dropping like a stone. As you say, simply using the words 'limited edition' means very little on it's own
Hillbilly168 said:
Mikey,
Ironically, I was also recently offered the chance to change into a V12VR not so long ago, with a choice of 6 dealer spec'ed cars (surprising - I thought all allocations would have been taken up by customers). If you go for this one, push them hard on price. for this dealer spec'd vehicle, my gut tells me there is another 15-18k in there to be had in the deal.
I also suspect there are still a few new dealer spec models floating around that may fit your spec list, that can be had at a better price point. If interested, I can pass you the details of a man who can undoubtable assist.
Hope the above helps.
James.
it says all you need to know about aston, unfortunately, that ltd runs of no more than 100 for v12vr, one 77 and v12 zag, all at very different price points, haven't sold out quickly - can you imagine similar scenarios for ferrari or porsche ?!?Ironically, I was also recently offered the chance to change into a V12VR not so long ago, with a choice of 6 dealer spec'ed cars (surprising - I thought all allocations would have been taken up by customers). If you go for this one, push them hard on price. for this dealer spec'd vehicle, my gut tells me there is another 15-18k in there to be had in the deal.
I also suspect there are still a few new dealer spec models floating around that may fit your spec list, that can be had at a better price point. If interested, I can pass you the details of a man who can undoubtable assist.
Hope the above helps.
James.
having said that, it's obviously being kept quite discreet, as there is little info anywhere about these surplus cars
I'd also suggest that these cars are very unlikely to have had factory 'support', in which instance those kinds of discounts will simply not be available
The elephant in the room is possibly the fact that in 2 years time (educated guess 
), the V12 Vantage V12 Roadster will be a fully fledged and facelifted (a-la DB9.2?) production model possibly coming with the ZF 8 speed transmission and the 310quish 565bhp engine.
This is probably the last chance to get a beast of a manual car, but the ZF 8spd auto with the right software will be a good an fast box, especially with all the extra power and torque so the transmission losses aren't noticed.
In reality, I can't help but feel that the V12VR is no more limited than the DBS Ultimate Edition
It is a run out model just before replacement by the look of it, although a wonderful thing nevertheless.
Either that or a test-bed like the Virage was for the facelifted DB9.2.
), the V12 Vantage V12 Roadster will be a fully fledged and facelifted (a-la DB9.2?) production model possibly coming with the ZF 8 speed transmission and the 310quish 565bhp engine.This is probably the last chance to get a beast of a manual car, but the ZF 8spd auto with the right software will be a good an fast box, especially with all the extra power and torque so the transmission losses aren't noticed.
In reality, I can't help but feel that the V12VR is no more limited than the DBS Ultimate Edition
It is a run out model just before replacement by the look of it, although a wonderful thing nevertheless. Either that or a test-bed like the Virage was for the facelifted DB9.2.
I was lucky enough to get hold of a lhd Porsche GT3 RS 4.0 and the circumstances around the sale where quite different. At the time where Porsche announced the 600 GT3 RS 4.0 they had all been sold. So yes it created a hype but there were no cars to buy. This demand has since held up and maybe will stay up there who knows when the new 991 GT3 RS arrives in a couple of years time.
However, the 4.0 is different to the outgoing RS in the sense that it has a 4.0 litre engine with 500 hp - the highest output per litre of a normally aspirated engine ever - and it shows when you drive it. It is a truly engaging car to drive. At the same time it was not that much more expensive (at list) than the GT3 RS 3.8.
Aston could have achieved the same hype with the limited edition V12V Zagato but due to the fact that it does not offer anything different to the V12V other than hand made body panelling and some limited trim changes but costs 4 times as much has not yet made it to a collectable status.
I actually think, that the stock V12V has the best potential to be a future classic collectors car. It has only been produced in a bit more than 1000 examples, drives magnificently, is low on maintenance and is affordable. Remember that the DB4 was built 1110 times during its 1958 - 1963 reign and cars have been traded up to STG 350k - 400k for concour examples and continue to appreciate.
So my advice to the OP is that he should put his miles on the V8R and enjoy open top motoring whenever possible and use the spare change to buy a low mileage V12V and use is for that special occasion.
However, the 4.0 is different to the outgoing RS in the sense that it has a 4.0 litre engine with 500 hp - the highest output per litre of a normally aspirated engine ever - and it shows when you drive it. It is a truly engaging car to drive. At the same time it was not that much more expensive (at list) than the GT3 RS 3.8.
Aston could have achieved the same hype with the limited edition V12V Zagato but due to the fact that it does not offer anything different to the V12V other than hand made body panelling and some limited trim changes but costs 4 times as much has not yet made it to a collectable status.
I actually think, that the stock V12V has the best potential to be a future classic collectors car. It has only been produced in a bit more than 1000 examples, drives magnificently, is low on maintenance and is affordable. Remember that the DB4 was built 1110 times during its 1958 - 1963 reign and cars have been traded up to STG 350k - 400k for concour examples and continue to appreciate.
So my advice to the OP is that he should put his miles on the V8R and enjoy open top motoring whenever possible and use the spare change to buy a low mileage V12V and use is for that special occasion.
yeti said:
This is probably the last chance to get a beast of a manual car, but the ZF 8spd auto with the right software will be a good an fast box, especially with all the extra power and torque so the transmission losses aren't noticed.
I think the 8 speed will be good in auto mode, but I reckon it will be s
te to use with the paddleshift. Too many gears! 7 is optimum for using the paddles, 8 is too many. A CVT makes more sense if they're going to stick any more gears in.In respect of the last 2 or 3 posts, I agree wholeheartedly with many of the points, but I can't really agree with it being the same kind of run out model as the ultimate DBS, because they have never produced a roadster of the V12V before. In fact, bearing in mind as Yeti knows more than most, how rare a manual volante of any DB9/DBS is, it's incredibly rare being a manual V12 soft top of any Aston model. So run out model may be fair, but not in the same way as dbs ultimate
4.0 RS was a run out model in many senses of the word - that in itself is not the issue. It's certainly not a -ve. I've driven one back to back with the 3.6 & 3.8 RS 997s on track (though I've never been lucky enough to own one) and it's a truly stunning machine, so my comments about it being a ltd ed of a ltd ed weren't meant in a derogatory manner. As an aside, and you hornbaek as a former owner are in a far better position to comment on this than I am, I felt the leap from gen I RS to gen II RS was more significant than from gen II to 4.0
Where I think the 4.0 RS & V12VR (or regular V12V for that matter) are similar is that they both represent the last of an era, hence why I don't see the 991 RS posing a threat to the desirability of the 997 RS
And that's why I think yeti's 'elephant in the room' is as much a +ve as a -ve. I'm not sure how big a change to suspension & body there will be but I too see that engine used with an auto box in a vantage replacement. It's not about how good the new box or new car is, the fact remains it hopefully won't be manual or automated manual, in which instance it will have a very different character indeed.
4.0 RS was a run out model in many senses of the word - that in itself is not the issue. It's certainly not a -ve. I've driven one back to back with the 3.6 & 3.8 RS 997s on track (though I've never been lucky enough to own one) and it's a truly stunning machine, so my comments about it being a ltd ed of a ltd ed weren't meant in a derogatory manner. As an aside, and you hornbaek as a former owner are in a far better position to comment on this than I am, I felt the leap from gen I RS to gen II RS was more significant than from gen II to 4.0
Where I think the 4.0 RS & V12VR (or regular V12V for that matter) are similar is that they both represent the last of an era, hence why I don't see the 991 RS posing a threat to the desirability of the 997 RS
And that's why I think yeti's 'elephant in the room' is as much a +ve as a -ve. I'm not sure how big a change to suspension & body there will be but I too see that engine used with an auto box in a vantage replacement. It's not about how good the new box or new car is, the fact remains it hopefully won't be manual or automated manual, in which instance it will have a very different character indeed.
jonby said:
And that's why I think yeti's 'elephant in the room' is as much a +ve as a -ve. I'm not sure how big a change to suspension & body there will be but I too see that engine used with an auto box in a vantage replacement. It's not about how good the new box or new car is, the fact remains it hopefully won't be manual or automated manual, in which instance it will have a very different character indeed.
I hope it's a +ve too Jonby. I am not sure AML will ever combine that fully manual transmission with the 310quish engine, we can but hope but I doubt it. The V12VR is indeed the end of a era, is it the only manual V12 car that is made currently? Pagani have ceased Zonda production, Ferrari and Lambo are all robotic... Can't think of anyone else? And to boot, it's a ragtop 
As we now know though, the 510bhp unit can be made to outperform the current 310quish engine by Bamford Rose, at least until they bring out a 310quish 'S' model with 600bhp, which is entirely possible. And I doubt that would ever make it into the short wheelbase car, would be a very challenging drive indeed without a LOT of driver aids!
hornbaek said:
I was lucky enough to get hold of a lhd Porsche GT3 RS 4.0 and the circumstances around the sale where quite different. At the time where Porsche announced the 600 GT3 RS 4.0 they had all been sold. So yes it created a hype but there were no cars to buy. This demand has since held up and maybe will stay up there who knows when the new 991 GT3 RS arrives in a couple of years time.
However, the 4.0 is different to the outgoing RS in the sense that it has a 4.0 litre engine with 500 hp - the highest output per litre of a normally aspirated engine ever - and it shows when you drive it. It is a truly engaging car to drive. At the same time it was not that much more expensive (at list) than the GT3 RS 3.8.
Aston could have achieved the same hype with the limited edition V12V Zagato but due to the fact that it does not offer anything different to the V12V other than hand made body panelling and some limited trim changes but costs 4 times as much has not yet made it to a collectable status.
I actually think, that the stock V12V has the best potential to be a future classic collectors car. It has only been produced in a bit more than 1000 examples, drives magnificently, is low on maintenance and is affordable. Remember that the DB4 was built 1110 times during its 1958 - 1963 reign and cars have been traded up to STG 350k - 400k for concour examples and continue to appreciate.
So my advice to the OP is that he should put his miles on the V8R and enjoy open top motoring whenever possible and use the spare change to buy a low mileage V12V and use is for that special occasion.
Good Post, and totally agree with V12VV view. However, times have changed....hugely. You can't compare the market now to that of 50+ years ago. Neither the V12V or the RS 4.0 will be regarded as 'classics'IMO, and will suffer depreciation to exactly the same extent.However, the 4.0 is different to the outgoing RS in the sense that it has a 4.0 litre engine with 500 hp - the highest output per litre of a normally aspirated engine ever - and it shows when you drive it. It is a truly engaging car to drive. At the same time it was not that much more expensive (at list) than the GT3 RS 3.8.
Aston could have achieved the same hype with the limited edition V12V Zagato but due to the fact that it does not offer anything different to the V12V other than hand made body panelling and some limited trim changes but costs 4 times as much has not yet made it to a collectable status.
I actually think, that the stock V12V has the best potential to be a future classic collectors car. It has only been produced in a bit more than 1000 examples, drives magnificently, is low on maintenance and is affordable. Remember that the DB4 was built 1110 times during its 1958 - 1963 reign and cars have been traded up to STG 350k - 400k for concour examples and continue to appreciate.
So my advice to the OP is that he should put his miles on the V8R and enjoy open top motoring whenever possible and use the spare change to buy a low mileage V12V and use is for that special occasion.
I less concerned about how much (or not at all) a car appreciates. My main issue lately is how quickly new car prices drop through the floor. I experienced that with my V12V when I bought it new in 2009 at 135k (and yes I went through all the speccing process etc) only to see that dealer specced cars where being traded at 110k 3 months into production. Regardless of how loaded you are it is simply not a nice experience and I have sworn to this day that I will never again buy a new car from Aston Martin as long as they don't do something to manage the aftermarket - at least 12-18 months after an introduction of a new model. It is simply unprofessional and off-putting.
This at least is not the case with the GT3 RS 4.0. I don't think I have lost a penny on that car - and maybe never will.
This at least is not the case with the GT3 RS 4.0. I don't think I have lost a penny on that car - and maybe never will.
AMDBSNick said:
Back in the 80's I walked into "Bramleys" showroom in Surrey. The first car I saw was a Ferrari Daytona Spyder RHD. Price tag hanging on the rear view mirror £1M. This is/was one of only seven RHD cars ever made. To me this is seriously rare & collectible.
Personally I wouldn't pay £1m for a Daytona convertible, not then and not now. Back in the 70's I walked into Scottish Motor Services in Woodlands Road, Glasgow, where they were selling a running but slightly scruffy Aston Martin DB5 Convertible. The asking price was £1,695.00. Care to hazard a guess what that might be worth today? Likewise they couldn't shift DB6 Mk.II's in 1971 or Commemorative E-Type S.3 roadsters in 1974. Today a Mk.II Volante is rarer than hens teeth, and the E-Type is probably £120k. Classic car star quality is a hard thing to define, but (only imho) the V12V has it, and 1,000 units, give or take, is not a huge number, particularly in a growing world market. In a few years time if not already there will be kids across China Russia and India with their bedroom walls plastered with pictures of Astons. Curiously, I find the thought of a V12VR rather intimidating, and I would guess that a V12 coupe or a V8VSR will be very close indeed for rarity and desirability.
All just imho.
Jockman said:
Jonby, bottom line is you're going to have a stunning car that YOU are happy with.
I hope it doubles in price over time tbh and we should all be a wee bit careful about (innocently) talking down prices
to be fair jockman, in respect of your post and the immediate few above, your first line is the most important but in respect of the second, it's for me more about how it holds it's value (as a couple of others mention above) than about making moneyI hope it doubles in price over time tbh and we should all be a wee bit careful about (innocently) talking down prices
I had exactly the same experience in my 1st Aston, albeit not an a car I specced myself, as hornbaek refers to and as he rightly says, it's not fun. We've all said plenty about how Aston manages (or more pertinently doesn't) the market and it's a big problem for the marque that will take years to fully rectify
my thoughts are that the limited nature of this particular vehicle and whatever anyone says, there will probably only ever be 101 vantages (or their successor) with a v12 engine, a manual box & a softop, which will help it maintain it's value. As such, the real world premium of 35-40k or so over a new v12V will hopefully continue in the 2nd hand market, which is all I can really expect - anything else is a bonus
jonby said:
As such, the real world premium of 35-40k or so over a new v12V will hopefully continue in the 2nd hand market, which is all I can really expect - anything else is a bonus
Mmmmm...I wouldn't 'expect' that level of premium. Then again, you have a great car and it's yours to enjoy. Far more radical than me in purchasing an Aston of any description from new. I simply would never consider it as an option.
Hillbilly168 said:
Mikey, did you make a decision?
James
I have actually made two James
But I wanted to talk to both parties before making it known
I've explained to Lloyd I cannot justify the £82k cost to change as it is not exactly my spec, I still have some concerns with light weight seats/manual gearboxes and it is simply not twice the car my S is. It is a great car though
Bizarrely it seems the factory reprimanded them for publicly marketing a limited edition car, not sure how they are supposed to make people more aware of its availability
On the second decision I have agreed a deal with Bamford Rose for a 5.0 litre "Pinnacle" conversion with a few "special additions"
Thank you all for your input and comments on this one
Lloyd good luck with sale I'm sure some one will find it special enough very soon
Edited by mikey k on Tuesday 8th January 08:33
mikey k said:
I have actually made two
But I wanted to talk to both parties before making it known
I've explained to Lloyd I cannot justify the £82k cost to change as it is not exactly my spec, I still have some concerns with light weight seats/manual gearboxes and it is simply not twice the car my S is. It is a great car though
Bizarrely it seems the factory reprimanded them for publicly marketing a limited edition car, not sure how they are supposed to make people more aware of its availability
On the second decision I have agreed a deal with Bamford Rose for a 5.0 litre "Pinnacle" conversion with a few "special additions"
Thank you all for your input and comments on this one
Lloyd good luck with sale I'm sure some one will find it special enough very soon
So V12VR Power in a V8VSR But I wanted to talk to both parties before making it known
I've explained to Lloyd I cannot justify the £82k cost to change as it is not exactly my spec, I still have some concerns with light weight seats/manual gearboxes and it is simply not twice the car my S is. It is a great car though
Bizarrely it seems the factory reprimanded them for publicly marketing a limited edition car, not sure how they are supposed to make people more aware of its availability
On the second decision I have agreed a deal with Bamford Rose for a 5.0 litre "Pinnacle" conversion with a few "special additions"
Thank you all for your input and comments on this one
Lloyd good luck with sale I'm sure some one will find it special enough very soon
So that will be a V8VSRBRFQ510 ish
mikey k said:
Bizarrely it seems the factory reprimanded them for publicly marketing a limited edition car, not sure how they are supposed to make people more aware of its availability
Lloyd good luck with sale I'm sure some one will find it special enough very soon
They didn't publicly market the car - it was my thread :roll eyes: Lloyd had contacted me to let me know they would have the Orange V12VR in the showroom for sale because he knew that I thought cars were only being built to customer spec and didn't want me to find out about this one from other sources - which I appreciated. I then went in to see the car and decided to start a thread. I do share Mikey's view on making people aware it is available though- very bizarre.Lloyd good luck with sale I'm sure some one will find it special enough very soon
Edited by mikey k on Tuesday 8th January 08:33
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