What next for the Vantage?

[Grant3]

I know we have looked at this before, but it is now 10 years since the AMV8 concept was unveiled and 8 since V8 Vantage production started. As we all know A.M. are very good at evolving the design so it has certainly moved on a very long way in that time, and only last year it had another very sensible and well thought out "nip and tuck"! Although the exterior design hasn't changed very much, let's be honest it still looks fabulous, but the raft of new product that is coming out chips away at Aston's market bit by bit. As the stunning exterior design hasn't evolved much used cars look very similar to new and that in combination with recessional depreciation is further affecting new sales.

Since last years useful V8 Vantage "tweaks" the new Porsche 991 is now well established (+new Cayman/Boxster), the R8 has had a refresh, Maserati are unveiling a boat load of new models and the all-new F-Type is hitting the streets (etc).

I saw my first F-type in the flesh recently and must confess to finding it far better looking than the images suggested, it looked very... dare I say.. Aston like. The V8S performance is also being claimed at sub-9 secs 0-100mph which is V12 Vantage territory! In addition you have a standard set of adaptive dynamic settings that you can play with and even with all the toys added it's coming in below base V8V money. Now I'm not suggesting I'd rather have this than an Aston,it certainly doesn't ooze the same high class feel, but it is another "British" car moving into the same market sector. Ok it will depreciate like a stone (based on other Jags) once the honeymoon period is over but there will be plenty of people now looking at Vantage vs F-Type.


So what do you all think A.M. need to do next with the design.

I have attempted a Poll thingy above to vote on a few key points, interesting to hear all thoughts, additions and ideas below...

Edited by Grant3 on Wednesday 12th June 21:47

[bogie]

I will take:

5.0 V8 with 500bhp + ...they can make the V12 600bhp + to compensate
electronic suspension so you can have it hard or softer
keyless go is nice...just a fancy fob for your pocket (or a watch) will do

not bothered about 20" wheels and lower profile to ruin the ride further ...nor a more bling hi-fi or interior

[gibbon]

I think it will continue to evolve in a pseudo 911 style, for several reasons, primarily because I genuinely believe the lines, shape and proportions of the car will be incredibly hard to improve upon, far more likely to detract from its beauty i would imagine, and also due to budget development constraints.

I think the engine could do with some modernising in terms of power, torque, economy, emissions etc, the design is classic, i think maybe technology has moved on a little.

[steveatesh]

This is a real important point for them isn't it? I'm not sure the 991 variant Porsche is a few tweaks though, from my understanding it is a complete new car with significant improvements but retaining much of the same ecology as the 997, as is Porsches way. I am saying that based on having just researched and bought a New model Boxster which was certainly not tweaks, it was a massive improvement over the outgoing version.

That matters because as you allude to the sports at market moves on. In my mind Aston have to consider whether they want to remain in the Vantage market at all with the 991 setting such a benchmark to aspire to - do they have the money to compete or should they let that market go?

So for me the poll needs another option - discontinue the Vantage altogether.

I'm not saying that is what they will do, but it must be a serious consideration. The money could be used to build something that will sell in the emerging markets, such as dare I say it the elusive SUV.

If they do build a replacement Vantage, I think it will have an AMG engine in it, be an evolved shape rather than a new one, better technology, and a PDK style clutch option as well as manual.

My two pennorth

[gibbon]

steveatesh said:

This is a real important point for them isn't it? I'm not sure the 991 variant Porsche is a few tweaks though, from my understanding it is a complete new car with significant improvements but retaining much of the same ecology as the 997, as is Porsches way. I am saying that based on having just researched and bought a New model Boxster which was certainly not tweaks, it was a massive improvement over the outgoing version.

That matters because as you allude to the sports at market moves on. In my mind Aston have to consider whether they want to remain in the Vantage market at all with the 991 setting such a benchmark to aspire to - do they have the money to compete or should they let that market go?

So for me the poll needs another option - discontinue the Vantage altogether.

I'm not saying that is what they will do, but it must be a serious consideration. The money could be used to build something that will sell in the emerging markets, such as dare I say it the elusive SUV.

If they do build a replacement Vantage, I think it will have an AMG engine in it, be an evolved shape rather than a new one, better technology, and a PDK style clutch option as well as manual.

My two pennorth

I have to agree, good points and all true or probably i think. I was thinking more in terms of the 991 engine being basically a 997 II DFI unit, built into a heavily evolved/new chassis. I can imagine Aston almost doing the reverse, basically the same body with new underpinnings, such as an AMG powerplant as you say.

[whoami]

steveatesh said:

build something that will sell in the emerging markets, such as dare I say it the elusive SUV.

I was talking to someone in AM today.

That was spot on with their assessment of what may come next.

[Grant3]

steveatesh said:

This is a real important point for them isn't it? I'm not sure the 991 variant Porsche is a few tweaks though, from my understanding it is a complete new car with significant improvements but retaining much of the same ecology as the 997, as is Porsches way. I am saying that based on having just researched and bought a New model Boxster which was certainly not tweaks, it was a massive improvement over the outgoing

Steve, just clarifying the words........since last years useful "tweaks" ..... refers to the V8 Vantage's useful tweaks, On re-reading the paragraph that isn't clear, so I understand your interpretation and will edit the orginal. Although the 991 (+ 981) is still an evolution in the fine tradition of 911 it is a big new step forward hence the reference.

[robgt]

I reckon by 2015 we will have a body rehash though it will still retain a strong resemblance to the current Vantage. Engine wise we will have AMG based V8's with forced induction for the hot version. V12's will be phased out. PDK is unlikely because you would have no boot space at all. Looking under the bonnet of Molly's Polo GTI the gearbox looks to be the same size as the engine. Switchable suspension or AD will be fitted. There will be a serious reduction in overall weight, the interior will be brought right up to date and it will be a winner because they cannot afford it not to be

[Grant3]

whoami said:

CUV.....
I was talking to someone in AM today.

That was spot on with their assessment of what may come next.

Cheeky Mr Hamilton but no doubt near the mark alla Porsche Cayenne

[yeti]

whoami said:

steveatesh said:

build something that will sell in the emerging markets, such as dare I say it the elusive SUV.

I was talking to someone in AM today.

That was spot on with their assessment of what may come next.

It's inevitable and no bad thing for the company... but do your contacts intimate whether it's the end of the Vantage-Class car?

[steveatesh]

yeti said:

It's inevitable and no bad thing for the company... but do your contacts intimate whether it's the end of the Vantage-Class car?

The multi million dollar question isn't it? I think an SUV to sell in emerging economies and concentrating on higher end cars will secure the future of the brand longer. It can be argued that the Vantage served it's purpose and helped the brand grow significantly, but now it's a changed world and time to amend the strategy accordingly. Unless the new partners really have a good tie in with AMG and some spare notes to put into Vantage. Safer bet to let it go if it's a choice of one or the other.

[steveatesh]

st I've passed 1000 posts and didn't mark the occasion God How embarrassing.......

[steveatesh]

robgt said:

PDK is unlikely because you would have no boot space at all. Looking under the bonnet of Molly's Polo GTI the gearbox looks to be the same size as the engine.

I wonder if that's possible to overcome though? As the move towards automated manual boxes gather pace, the PDK multi-plate clutch is another benchmark and is superlative in use. I recall sitting at Gaydon and being told by the AM designer that the V12V would never have a Sport Shift box because they couldn't get it in the car. And yet it's just been released.

If they don't it will always be a point of negative comment because people (journalists?) will inevitably compare SS variant n with the PDK style boxes. Different configuration I know but our Boxster has it which is smaller than a Vantage I believe. Yes the boot is smaller too, but personally I'd give up the amount of shopping I can get in it if the choice was PDK or Sport Shift.

[Grant3]

They certainly won't drop the Vantage at the moment, they need the volume for the factory, and don't forget the VH shared component concept and economies of scale. Taking Porsche as an example, there is no doubt that the Boxster saved the 911, although it is Porsches least profitable ( and best value!) model, shared components with the 911 (996 series for the first Boxster) ensured chunky margins on the 911 particularly the high end models.

bogie said:

I will take: 5.0 V8 with 500bhp + ...they can make the V12 600bhp + to compensate
electronic suspension so you can have it hard or softer
keyless go is nice...just a fancy fob for your pocket (or a watch) will do
not bothered about 20" wheels and lower profile to ruin the ride further ...nor a more bling hi-fi or interior

Howdy Mark, hope you are good? So in order to get an extra 80 horses would you accept forced induction?

[bogie]

Grant3 said:

Howdy Mark, hope you are good? So in order to get an extra 80 horses would you accept forced induction?

Hi Grant
yes thanks Grant, the Vantage is still going well too, although im only doing a few K mile a year these days in it

I think a supercharged V8 would be acceptable as you don't usually know they are even there ....but not a turbo

...they could twin supercharge the V12 whilst they are at it

[PiloteAM]

I reckon that once the current V8 engine supply comes to an end (2015?) they'll kill off the V8V

As someone else said, the margin is all in the more expensive cars, and they've amortised the VH platform development costs by now.

V12V replacement might have a supercharged Merc V8 in it I guess, but it would be sad for Aston to just be putting someone else's engines in a pretty body.

[mikey k]

bogie said:

I will take:

5.0 V8 with 500bhp + ...they can make the V12 600bhp + to compensate
electronic suspension so you can have it hard or softer
not bothered about 20" wheels and lower profile to ruin the ride further ...nor a more bling hi-fi or interior

[Grant3]

mikey k said:

bogie said:

I will take:
5.0 V8 with 500bhp + ...they can make the V12 600bhp + to compensate
electronic suspension so you can have it hard or softer
not bothered about 20" wheels and lower profile to ruin the ride further ...nor a more bling hi-fi or interior

[Neil1300R]

robgt said:

I reckon by 2015 we will have a body rehash though it will still retain a strong resemblance to the current Vantage. Engine wise we will have AMG based V8's with forced induction for the hot version. V12's will be phased out. PDK is unlikely because you would have no boot space at all. Looking under the bonnet of Molly's Polo GTI the gearbox looks to be the same size as the engine. Switchable suspension or AD will be fitted. There will be a serious reduction in overall weight, the interior will be brought right up to date and it will be a winner because they cannot afford it not to be

I don't see the V12 being discontinued until 2017, as AM have signed a deal with Ford for production to continue until then. additionally AM have just changed the ECU (Bosch?) to help with emissions, tuning,costs etc.

[V8V CG]

Almost everything proposed takes the Vantage further away from the formula that made it such a success - affordability.

Let there be V12s and V12Ss and Zagatos, but for Aston Martin to succeed it needs another huge success like the Vantage, and that means getting back down to making a beautiful car that can be sold for £80,000. Maybe now even affordable running costs are required - a supercharged straight six?